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Forums > Social Discussion > the power of the mind - controlling body and influencing the universe

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:so before i even get started i just want to put a warning of sorts in as i know alot of people took offense to some of the views offered in the hotties thread, so if the concept of being responsible for your life and being able to influence the events that occur in your life offends you please stop reading because its not my intention to offend anyone simply to discuss ideas and concepts



to believe one thing is to disbelieve the opposite, this limits your perception of the world, so please suspend your beleifs and disbeleifs to entertain the ideas that unfold within this thread



the mind and what its capable is something that particularly fascinates me, one of my personal goals this year is to learn firewalking. the goal behind this thread is to hear peoples personal experiences and ideas relating to the power of the mind and its influence on the body and surrounding universe. if you disagree or have a different opinion to one that is offered please quote the text that you disagree with and offer a reason as to why you disagree



things to bear in mind when reading this thread

1. all scientific human knowledge is based on observations which carries with it the possibility of human errors and assumptions (edited to add scientific in to clarify smile)

2. human perception is a limited range of all the information (ie infrared and ultraviolet light) that exists

3. the commonly accepted truth was once that the world was flat however this does not make it true

4. concepts are conveyed through language, language is based on an individuals life experiences as such meanings of words can vary from person to person



at this point in time i am of the opinion that the mind regulates all aspects of the body via the brain. here are some quotes from experimental findings from the book Best Evidence by Michael Schmicker,



"Researchers at the famed Menninger Foundation in Kansas tested one Indian yogi who could, at will, produce with his mind an 11 degree Fahrenheit difference between the left and right sides of the same palm, with one side turning pink from heat and the other turning gray from cold."



"a man with no yogic training who demonstrated the ability to voluntarily stop his heart -- to produce cardiac arrest -- on demand. EKG tests showed his heartbeat did indeed disappear completely. (As he began to faint from lack of blood, the subject would take a deep breath and revive himself)."



"In 1981, Benson and a group of researchers from the Harvard Medical School instrumented three Tibetan monks in India practicing a form of meditation called Tummo. The monks could take a blanket soaked in cold water, wrap it around themselves, and sit in the snow on a mountain top in a meditative trance. In the Harvard tests, the monks meditated for 55 minutes in an unheated, cold room, using their minds to raise their internal body temperature... All three monks produced dramatic body temperature changes. One 50-year old monk was able to raise the temperature of his toes by 15 degrees Fahrenheit; another 59-year old monk raised his finger and toe temperatures 11 and 12 degrees Fahrenheit respectively, and raised the overall temperature of the room he was meditating in by 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit."



"Using hypnosis, researchers are able to produce real, physical blisters, bruises and skin inflammations on test subjects simply with words"



"Documented clinical studies have shown the placebo effect has successfully relieved or cured hay fever, coughing, insomnia and sleep disorders, colds, headaches, diabetes, peptic ulcers, seasickness, and various kinds of pain including angina pectoris; reduced obesity and urinary incontinence; matched the effectiveness of anti-arthritic pills in treating the symptoms of arthritis and the effectiveness of chemical anti-depressants in treating depression; and treated anxiety. Placebos can speed up or slow down a heartbeat rate; alter moods and perceptions, produce observable calm or its opposite, nervousness; and even produce feelings of euphoria."



"Researchers say a doctor's diagnosis usually sets a patient's mind visualizing the outcome predicted by the doctor"



so if a dr tells you that something is the way it is and you believe them then often thats the way it will be.



my current thoughts on the working of the universe are



1. there is an energy connection between every entity in existence, the stronger your relationship with the entity the stronger the connection

2. the natural state of life is growth but it exists in two states growth and the cycle of stagnation death and decay

3. we exist and both individuals and as a collective (kind of like the internet all interconnected in different ways)

4. as individual we exist as the subconscious, conscious and higher self

5. the subconscious is programmed by our lifes experiences to survive (this can be unprogrammed) not all of the instincts of the subconscious are healthy though eg running away from problems to avoid them

6. the conscious mind is the you bit thats thinking now

7. the higher self is the part that communicates with the rest of the collective and regulates things like making your nails grow.

8. you can draw events into your life to help you grow throught your higher self

9. the conscious mind goes through lots of different thoughts so you have to make it very clear to the higher self what you want, also some of the subconsciouses learnt behaviour are contradictory to growth and self sabotage growth the maintain a feeling of safety even if its not a happy safety

10. the collective responds in a kind of survial of the fitest kind of way so if u want something really bad (and dont have conflicting learnt things in your subconscious) it will bring events into your life "coincidences"

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1109317272)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Yeah jeff wink

ubblol


Love is the law.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: stout



Benjamin, the thing about firewalking, is you're not actually "walking"on the hot coals themselves ( well technically you are, but ). What happens is that the coals cool off instantly on contact with your foot ( the specific heat capacity difference ) then instantly form an insulating layer of ash that heats up again quickly once your foot is removed. Thats the trick.



Try walking on red hot steel, instead of ashes, You'll see what I mean.



i totally get that firewalking is due to the laws of physics, what im getting at though is the experience of it you get, if you walk barefoot on cement on a hot day you feel the heat on your feet as you quickly run over it. when i did my firewalk i didnt get that i got the opposite because the message being sent was overwriting the input i was getting from my feet, my feet where really really cold till much later when i felt the warmth come through.



 Written by: stout

Suspension of both belief and disbelief? one in the same really, but yes, it may help ( it sure helps the movie industry ) but isn't belief really what this is all about? The belief in mind over matter.



when i try something new i make a point to suspend both the reason being i dont have a belief on what happens when we die, i have lots of ideas that fluctuate from day to day but no beliefs, however when it comes to christianity i hold that in disbelief. its semantics i know when i had it put to me like that it made me approach problems different with first stating what my assumptions where. I think its more a cause of suspending belief and disbelief and trying the vehicle to mind over matter than blindly believing.



 Written by: Circus Midget



Do you think there is an actual 'real' reality that can't be changed, and it's just the fact that we all happen to be experiencing it subjectively that makes it seem like we can control it?

i think that we are constantly changing and that we are an integral part of reality whatever that is.



 Written by: Circus Midget

And what alternative is there to belief or disbelief?

before you form a judgement on something you are neutral, much like theres infinite degrees of positive and negative numbers theres that unique spot at zero where its not positive or negative.



 Written by: Circus Midget

Are we tricking our brain into believing that we can walk on hot coals? Or are we just discovering that we could do it all along?

i think its more a case of we are telling our brains there are no hot coals only cold snow

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1161610027)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


I'm being criticised for being arrogant/negative/unconstructive. All of these are true, but they don't address the points.

What I ask is for a weight of evidence even approching the enormity of what either of the two propose, rather than anecdotes or tales. The world is full of charlatans and conditions which can make an otherwise sane person percieve something which isn't there. Any statistician can tell you that the world is also full of amazing coincidences because of the huge number of interacting parts - essentially million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten simply because there are trillions of million to one chances.

This is why a claim should be repeatedly tested, and never taken on the weight of an anectdote, a personal "experience", or the authority of a book on the paranormal.

You, are of course, freely able to ignore what I'm suggesting on the matter (for now wink). But if you intend to change the world, people generally respond better to arguements backed up with rigourus scientific testing, than to arguements made from personal conviction.



It's a shame you feel "criticised for being arrogant/negative/unconstructive. "

When it comes to stuff like-

 Written by: FireTom



What is the purpose of your question? If you're not having anything to add to the topic, why do you bother posting here? Nothing you even remotely constructive or informative you have to contribute - so far.




Then try not to take it to heart- that kind of put down is quite common from some HOP regulars.

IMO, your-

 Written by: jeff(fake)


I can bend spoons, make coins appear behind people's ears and walk over hot coals without injury. I also had mate in school who could do quite a few of the Shoalin stunts. I'd better tell him our next step is controling matter itself. wink

Now, if I may repeat my question: What is the practical difference between yourself and someone who's only fooling themselves?



....is very much at the heart of this discussion- both constructive and imformative.

Stick with it smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:ptaf - nicely put OWD ubblol wink ubbangel

Ben - Now, if YOU were able to overcome hot coals by conditioning your brain that "in fact it's cold snow" (+ not shuffling) - that's a very individual experience. Entire footballteams have burnt their soles - what makes the difference?

Is the one blessed who is able to fool his very own mind?

*Serve* One example/ experience I had (to whom it may concern): The 5 of us have been on a bicycle-tour and locked them to a few posts to have a snack. On return one took another friends key and wanted to perform some mockery on him. The bikes were rentals and looked pretty similar. Now Bert was walking up to this bike, put the key inside and turned it - unlocked the bike, pulled the key back out. Simple, easy and fast...

Nothing abnorm about this incident, if it wouldn't have been the wrong lock that he picked. We were all completely stunned and asked him to do it again. Funny enough the key wouldn't even fit into the same lock anymore.

Nice story - all that we got out of it was that, if someone is only convinced enough to do "the right thing" (what and however that is) chances are that it simply works.

When I practice contact staff and am insecure, chances are higher that I drop it. If I am confident, chances are higher to actually complete the move (or punch me on the head pretty hard) wink

*waiting for the volley*


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Well damn those universal forces and their elitist moral judgements then wink

OWD, I think summed it up nicely when it comes to the Shaolin and their feats along with reiterating the actual physics behind fire walking. Thing is all these things are possible without the need to trick your mind, or to use a more mystic idea, magic.

It's really all in what you view as the trickery part. With firewalking, I see the trickery as someone telling me that I need to enter a special mental state in order for the phemenon to actually work, same with walking on glass, because I KNOW those are two activities I can take part in my current, skeptical mental state.

As for the Shaolin stuff, well, let's just say I'm outta shape.

Benjamen. It would be interesting to have a couple of thermometers, or sensors on the soles of your feet during your next fire walk, If they ( thermometers) were fast enough I think you'll find that the actual amount of heat that actually gets transferred to your feet is very small, due to the insulating qualities of the ash when it's cooled down by contact with your skin.

Coincidentally, I was talking to an aspiring magician last night, and he's telling me that he's just bought a levitation trick, (key word being trick), he won't tell me how it works but he did tell me its very hard to learn.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: FireTom

*Serve* One example/ experience I had (to whom it may concern): The 5 of us have been on a bicycle-tour and locked them to a few posts to have a snack. On return one took another friends key and wanted to perform some mockery on him. The bikes were rentals and looked pretty similar. Now Bert was walking up to this bike, put the key inside and turned it - unlocked the bike, pulled the key back out. Simple, easy and fast...



Nothing abnorm about this incident, if it wouldn't have been the wrong lock that he picked. We were all completely stunned and asked him to do it again. Funny enough the key wouldn't even fit into the same lock anymore.



Nice story - all that we got out of it was that, if someone is only convinced enough to do "the right thing" (what and however that is) chances are that it simply works.



You've never opened a lock with the wrong key before? It's a common lock-picker trick.



There are very few combinations actually used (especially with bike locks), and many contain what are functional repeats, but displaced spatially.



What that means is there's a good chance to open the wrong lock if you insert a key and turn it. Sometimes it needs a little jiggling, sometimes it needs to be put in only 4/5 of the way. That's why you shouldn't rely on a single lock if you want to be secure.



Perhaps that's a more likely explaination? Of course, it might instead be true that your friend changed reality to open the lock. Some might call that arrogant though.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted: Written by: FireTom



When I practice contact staff and am insecure, chances are higher that I drop it. If I am confident, chances are higher to actually complete the move (or punch me on the head pretty hard) wink





Sheese, tell me about it. I've been studying contact staff for all of five days now and one thing I've learned is confidence definately helps ( along with not going too fast and grabbing the staff with way more offset from the center mark than I've ever done before) but it's more of a focus thing, rather than any sort of connection with the cosmic forces ( IMHO ) Telekinesis sure would come in handy at this stage.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:redface See guys, I'm sorry to have you given the wrong idea about the situation:

 Written by:

Now Bert was walking up to this bike, put the key inside and turned it - unlocked the bike, pulled the key back out. Simple, easy and fast...

Nothing abnorm about this incident, if it wouldn't have been the wrong lock that he picked. We were all completely stunned and asked him to do it again. Funny enough the key wouldn't even fit into the same lock anymore.




It happened right next to me, I was observing the situation with my very own eyes from 1 Metre afar. There was no "picking"-activity as in "cracking", but in "choosing".

Please excuse for having used the word in a context that made it confusable... Meaning, that he went to the bike, put the right key into the wrong lock, unlocked it and pulled it out. Smooth and easy. By the time we noticed what was really happening in this moment, we asked him to repeat it and the key wouldn't even fit completely into the lock - as in "all the way down, to be able turning the key"... (English is my second language spank me)

Come again, please...

@ Stout: "Focus" is exactly the correct term, thankyou. Once one is focussed to a certain extent, boundaries are pushed further.

As a sidenote, so far I haven't put "Chi" even near any "Magick". Chi (or Qi) is a very ordinary, elementary energy everybody holds, whereas Magick is not.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:kind of a side-brain-splurge from me - apologies if its not at all relevant:



that's the big factor for me right there stout - 'focus'.



i believe that there are mindstates that can be brought about that gift a person with extremely high levels of 'focus'.



i think most here (even the 'skeptics' for want of a better label) would agree that meditation and other forms of thought concentration can bring about clearer thinking and or even different thought processes that otherwise would be overlooked/not achievable?



the really interesting side of meditation (and the factor most applicable to this discussion) is whether or not meditative states can bring about a 'real' effect on the physical world.



the concept of 'flow' links into this and supports with what tom was saying about his ability to control a contact staff (and the mind state that most spinners have referred to finding themselves in at some point).



i'm a skeptic when it comes to telekenisis and other such esoteric skills but i do believe that concentration of the mind can maximise one's abilities to and even beyond their normal limits.



this may not equate to a miracle of 'mind-over-matter' for most people but to me, this is all important as it says that:

one's mental state has a direct and very real bearing on the degree to which we can impose our will on reality.





i think that something such as firewalking can be used to give someone a good example of how bringing about a higher level of concentration/increased flow/whatever you want to call it, can have an effect in the 'real world'.



if you know how and why firewalking works, that's grand and you will very likely gain nothing tangible from the experience - but if you don't know how it works, are taken through a meditatation exercise first and then witness it working by testing it using your own feet, you afterwards have an extremely strong positive reinforcement for the benefits of meditation, which in turn (imho) makes reaching that state for things that do require increased levels of concentration/focus, more accessable.





i don't believe reality is so mallable that one person's higher mindstate can literally 'change' the nature of it for others.



i reserve judgement on large scale (i.e. many minds simultaneously focused) attempts at trying to effect change in this way.

too many times in the past we have dismissed unknowns through arrogance and it is my way of thinking that the power of thought on a massive scale is a relative unknown since it is so very rare for a large number of humans to be 100% focused mentally on the same objective.



as far as the key in the lock business in concerned, that doesn't suprise me at all - i had a key for a bike in amsterdam that did a very similar thing.

first time i used it to unlock the bike i had loads of trouble getting it to even go into the lock, then i had to wiggle it around to actually get it to turn in the lock.

the next time i came to the bike i pushed it in and turned it with absolutely no effort or problems - same key, smae lock, same me (although i was in a considerabley different state by try number two!) shrug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Check this one out.

http://istpp.org/print_friendly/crimeprev_index.html


Love is the law.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:???? Is it only my computer, or is the link ????

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:I have seen people do some things that should not be technically physically possible. Some of them were during a religious rite( a once every twelve years one) where people in the community are possessed by spirits/gods.( that is how they define their state, not me) For example, I saw a person cut his tongue into two sections, bleeding profusely( both sections of the tongue still attached at the base) and saw the same person healed and completely fine the next morning- definitely the same person, same tongue etc.



I saw another hit themselves in the chest with a sharp ax, at a force that should have severed him in two.I both saw it, and heard the impact. In fact, someone photograghed it too. Yet,no cut, no bruise. I was so disbelieving, that I asked to see the ax imediately after. They complied. Thinking it could not possibly be sharp, I ran my hand across it, and cut myself on the blade... My mind was still unaccepting, but shaken.



There were lots more disturbing mind blowing feats of physical impossibilities during that time.Too many to recount. If it was faked, under those conditions, by those people , I would be even more amazed than I was at what I actually saw!



It was reality shifting for me.



Mostly the rituals were intended to demonstrate the concept, as explained by these mediums, that the spirits gods who had come to temporarily possess the humans had the power to determine physical reality. Random people from the village would be possessed. It was disturbing to watch. Then they would perform shocking feats designed to allow the citizens to accept that the people were in fact inhabited by gods, and not just faking it. When the god spirits left, the people were exhausted, but healed, or uninjured from things that should have killed them.And they had no memories of that time period.



Once the series of demonstrations, healings, feats of physical impossibility etc had been so overwhelming that the watchers had accepted something far far out of the normal was happening, and opened their awareness; the spirits got down to the real work, which was directing people to the location of bones/bodies of people who had died in unknown places, or buried without appropriate rites.



The community was to gather the bones, clean them( we actually scrubbed them with toothbrushes and soft cloths, to remove the lingering flesh) , then burn them, pray over them, and re-inter them in a special grave where they would be safe and have the required rituals and respect.



So I saw the spirit possessed give out directions, in a terrifying voice that sounded like a radio frequency slightly off and on speed. Then we all trekked through the jungle until we found the spot he had described, and dug.And dug... I did this three times, in three very different places, bodies were found. The directions were spot on, though the "graves" were sometimes very old( judging by decomposition)You were under no circumstances permitted to say the body stunk, which it did. No offending the spirits on those days!



Only once the spirit giving directions was a little off, and we dug for like eight hours before we reconsulted him, and found the bones about two feet outside the area he had originally told us to go...lol In general,the idea was that the spirits came to offer the community guidance, in both spirtitual and practical matters.



I do have pictures of some of this religious ceremony and the surrounding efforts and rituals. But they don't tell the whole story, and you would have no way to know if I photoshopped them etc etc . I have no interest if any one else believes, or what they believe, or not. I have no need to convince anyone of anything, and have no explanation for what I saw other than what was offered me. I personally don't have a particularly strict definition of reality anymore, so it does not matter to me.



Yet, these people, in the situation I describe, were not hiding the activities, they welcomed me( as part of their community, I was married to one of the men) and answered all my questions very patiently as best they could.They let me touch things, investigate what was happenning-- I was allowed my disbelief( for as long as it lasted, only the first day!) and permitted to photogragh if I was respectful and not intrusive



My point, if there is one, is sometimes, you might just see or be directly involved, in things that are absolutely unaccountable to the so called normal laws of reality.



When you have the experience, it will not matter in he slightest if science,scientists, or anyone else individually , agrees with you or not. Proof? Not relevant..



And then you have to make the mental spritiual and ??? changes you need to make to absorb new , expanded realities.

Or deny the whole thing, cause that level of expansion is pretty disturbing and aleinating from most western society.I have seen people do both. I felt lucky, that this expereince was one I shared with the whole community I lived with at the time. It helped me not feel like I had simply gone mad, or was dreaming.



Sorry this is so long! But I thought I would share the experience, it is still very vivid in my mind. Since then, many more...



To me, it just makes the world a much more interesting place!

Andrea


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Ben - Now, if YOU were able to overcome hot coals by conditioning your brain that "in fact it's cold snow" (+ not shuffling) - that's a very individual experience. Entire footballteams have burnt their soles - what makes the difference?


I dont think it is such an individual experience everyone that i did the fire walking course with had the same one

 Written by: stout


Benjamen. It would be interesting to have a couple of thermometers, or sensors on the soles of your feet during your next fire walk, If they ( thermometers) were fast enough I think you'll find that the actual amount of heat that actually gets transferred to your feet is very small, due to the insulating qualities of the ash when it's cooled down by contact with your skin.


i was thinking about that a bit, as i keep saying its the delayed feeling of heat that has me wondering, could be interesting to measure the foot temperature post walk and then measure to see how it changes post walk.

the impression i get is that because your bloods pumping it disperses the heat through your body and because you have relatively short periods of contact the blood is able to remove the excess heat. i guess another comparision is that when you walk past a heater you feel the heat on your skin. i tried the whole bed on nails thing with petey and was suprised at how much it hurt, theres no way it will break the skin but it hurt like a censored didnt do any mental prep or anything before hand just did it. im planning on making up a set to "experiment" with, in much the same way im sure its possible to do fire walking without the prep however you will feel the experience it wont damage you but you will be very aware of it


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Circus Midget
SILVER Member since May 2005

Circus Midget

newbie
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Total posts: 45
Posted:What about those monks who manage to make themselves into mummies without any preservatives? The just meditate and die then don't decay, I saw on discovery channel they are on display in monastarys around the place. How weird is that?

Im not sure I believe in the mind directly affecting physical reality, I've never experienced that. (With the exception of my uncanny knack of changing traffic signals to red...) But its quite possible, probable even that there are forces at work in the world that humans can't/haven't learned how to percieve.

Like animals have extremely heightened senses compared to humans, an owl can hear a mouses footsteps a mile away, sharks can smell blood in 1 part per million, catfish can sense electromagnetic radiation, they actually can tell if an earthquake is gonna happen, and puppies... are really really cute! Who knows what else is going on that we aren't even aware of...

*theme from twilight zone*


"It was me! I was the turkey all along!"

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Cole, it seems as if 'Dam provides the breeding grounds for such experiences. My incident was exactly there ubblol

We were all hammered and the guy who was doing the unlock-thing usually didn't consume anything, but had a space-cake that day. Now I already hear guys catching breath and preparing for all sorts of comments on "stoners" - but as much as we tried, the key didn't fit the lock anymore.

My point on that one is (and I'm not promoting any kind of substance-abuse with it) - that if one's able to stop thinking and is focussed on the action itself, not questioning/ doubting it for even a splitsec, one is able to achieve incredible goals.

This "state of mind" can be achieved by various techniques, the intake of mind-altering substances is only a (somtimes very unhealthy and potentially dangerous) shortcut.

Through meditation, training and control of the body and mind - IMHO - this state can be reached just as well.

@Ben: With all possible scepticism, would you agree that this was a case of "mass-hypnosis"? wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:It would be fairly easy to make up a little study on the lock thing.

With the hypothesis that-

an individual inserting a key into a lock with the full belief that it is the right key, will lead to the lock opening even if it is the wrong key

i.e. that belief can actually transform reality.

Then set up a situation where someone is convincingly led to believe that they hold the right key to a lock and ask them to open it.

Repeat with a large number of individuals and take note of how many times the lock opens- record the results.

Then, do the same thing but give the individuals 2 keys, one of which is the right key, the other of which is the wrong key- explain that they have to find which is the right key- so they will then not have a belief that the key is necessarily going to open the lock, so there should be no 'reality changing' effect.

Record how many of the 'non-believer' group open the lock with the wrong key (this is to take into account other explanations of how a wrong key can open the lock, like the ones put forward one this thread).

If the first group open the lock with the wrong key more than the second, then that would indicate that belief can alter reality.

Of course, to do it properly it would be advisable to get some scientific experts on the case to ensure that it is well set-up.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Having thought about it, I reckon that, with the right approach, you could actually get a university to run the study.

I expect there would be initial reluctance as they would probably see it as a bit of a nonsense hypothesis and not worth the time.

However, if you present it as an opportunity for some undergraduates to set up a study that's-

1. a bit more interesting than the usual stuff they do
2. a good test of the undergrads ability to put together good protocols and devise ways of ensuring that potential distorting factors are excluded
3. remind them that science is as much about establishing the falsity of hypotheses than the truth of them

Then I reckon it could be a decent opportunity- if I was an undergrad on a science course, I think I'd welcome working on something like that that's a bit out of the ordinary.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I'm afraid Tom's misunderstood my post on locks.

Put the wrong key into the lock an turn it and there is a reasonable chance it will open (especially with bike locks).

It doesn't always need jiggling, it can happen smoothly and easily. Sometimes it needs to be inserted to the correct length, or with the correct force and so it can be difficult to repeat. It's simply a consequence of the way locks are constructed.

If your friend did change reality, he was doing much more work than he had too. wink

OWD has provided a perfectly viable test for the mechanism, although personally I would also suggest double blinding it. If you aren't interested in trying it out, don't expect people to believe in supernatural powers because of something your friend did once, you won't test despite it being testbable, and which was explicable by normal mechanisms.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Coleman, that's an interesting perspective, using meditation and firewalking as a means to reinforce one's confidence in one's self. I'll buy it. However, I feel it's important that one realize that is really the "mystery" behind firewalking, and any "changes" affected, are really only changes in one's mindset. In this context, I could see firewalking as a great confidence booster. full stop.

I often wonder what techniques I would use if I were to indulge in an activity that really freaks me out, like bungee jumping. I'd probably do what I always do when faced with situations I'm not really comfortable with ( like watching surgery [ vomit emoticon ] ), which is to simply "suck it up". It's worked so far but maybe meditation techniques would help ease the pain, so to speak.

I don't see any "special significance" in the lock incident, it's probably more a feature of cheap locks than anything else.

I sure would like the ability to meditate myself stoned though


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks Jeff - has my perception changed, or is the sound of your writing (how Zen is that now? wink ) very different? It appears much more.... dunno the word...

You're right and what you said is like what one of the Geller's critics said: If he (Geller) is using magic to bend spoons, he's doing it the hard way... ubblol

OWD: Good thinking, indeed - would be worth giving it a shot. Unfortunately I'm not connected to any Uni, or I'd suggest it.

Stout: there is a technique, PM on the way... smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well double posting, but I'm completely marvelled.



[edited as I've seen the show again at night]On Discovery Channel Asia, there seems to be a series under the headline "More than Human" about supernatural penomenon and todays edition had the headline "King of Pain"...



Three examples were shown - of which I unfortunately only caught the details of one - one of them was withstanding punches from a Kung-Fu master to his throat (adams apple), his solar plexus and and fierce kicks in his groin ubbloco, a woman was corsaged to the very extreme and reduced her waist level by more than 10 inches... eek



On top of this a guy, who does all kinds of weird stuff, like poking needles through his forearm, without any significant change of physical condition (i.e. blood pressure and heart frequency)... and no bleeding!



Then they set up a test with a nailbed (similar to the one he uses on his stage performances, in which he lies down and makes a group of people step on him - (all that besides jumping around on a small pile of broken glass) and this test was said nailbed (put up vertical) - poking his back against some support - and he was able to withstand 1200 pounds of pressure applied to the nailbed, without any puncture....



Now I wanted to post details on here and a link, but I cannot find it anywhere (calls for UCoF)....



Point is that the average human skin gets punctured at a pressure of 7 pounds or so... he withheld 1200 pounds of pressure (applied to 100 nails) wich is an average of 12 pounds per nail, without the skin to get pierced!



TO MAKE IT CLEAR FOR THE GENERAL AUDIENCE: DO NOT BE STUPID ENOUGH TO TRY ANY OF THIS AT HOME! Kicks in the groin etc. can lead to severe injuries!



IT TAKES A LIFELONG PRACTICE OF MEDITATION



But fact of the matter is, that pain is a learned response and that humans are able to overcome it.



Now the kicker (and my main question) is: when overcoming that (learned) response - they alter physical conditions - therefore put mind over matter.



You may claim that it has been forged and surely we cannot trust any source, not even our very own eyes - but Discovery Channel (so far) has been sort of a halfway reliable source of information for me.. dunno about you.


EDITED_BY: FireTom (1162517200)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Discovery channel, my ex-favourite tv station ( too much "reality" crap now ) I'll accept them as a reliable source of information.

I don't claim to have any understanding of what the Shaolin monks actually practice to develop their abilities, but I put it in the mind over body category, rather than the mind over matter one. I can see the parallels between firewalking, and what these guys do, and I'll acknowledge that the Shaolin "tricks", for lack of a better word, do take a lifetime of conditioning. But I think conditioning, rather than any sort of "magic" is really the crux of their abilities. Sort of like a boxer who gradually becomes conditioned to take punches that would drop me like a stone.

Mind you, after studying contact staff, I'm getting better at taking shots to the head.

I question whether pain is really a learned response, as opposed to a natural response, but there are meditation techniques out there to help one deal with pain. Did you know you can buy a self hypnosis course to ease the pain of childbirth ? Hypnobabies, it's called.

Are physical conditions really being altered here? or mental ones ?

I'm not claiming to be a skeptic, but I would be just that much more amazed if one of these Shaolin guys let ME kick him in the nuts.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Fun fact of the day: It's actually possible to control the muscles of your scrotum, allowing you to retract the testicles into the pelvic region. It happens automatically when it's real cold.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Jeff, I was wondering whether something like that was going on with the kick in the nuts example, but when I tried to research it I ended up on all these drag queen websites. wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:You know Jeff - good point smile Thanks for making me aware, that these guys were training 13 years to retract their testicles.

Now how about the other two points.. adams apple and solar plexus?

Any educational input on these ones?

But however: how about someones skin resisting 5 pounds of more pressure than the average and what about the lack of blood when he pierced his forearm with the needle.

But finally (and that's what I guess the entire story boils down to) how do you explain that the physical reactions (blood pressure and heart rate) were absolutely cool at the time of testing?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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