Forums > Technical Discussion > Seriously interesting! Fire-head (monkeyfist) thread

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crazycarl
member
Location: Bellingham and Seattle, WA
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 21
Posted:I have combed through BAZILLIONS of posts on ALL TYPES of fireheads, and it truely seems that monkey-fist knots are the way to go... People complain that they are too heavy, however, it seems easy to solve this problem by making them from smaller diameter rope. (right? I am trying to design a fire-head that will be light enough to do LOTS OF WRAPS)
(This link takes you to a FANTASTIC monkeyfist construction article) see "tutorials" -- "monkeyfist construction": Monkey Fist Tutorial
*KEEP READING -- THIS IS WHERE IT GETS IMPORTANT*
The problem ALL wicks seem to have is some level of exposed hardware which can burn you when doing wraps (which I do a lot of).
**I am hoping that the HOP community can provide input on construction of a monkey-fist firehead design, using the above-linked fire-head construction technique (small monkey-fist core -- *no* wooden/metal core) that will result in ball-chain emerging DIRECTLY from the monkey-fist knot without any connectors/links, etc.
I dont care if there are links/swivels etc near the handle, I just dont want ANY hardware near the knot. Just the knot, then ball-chain emerging from it with no intermediary...
I have heard rumor this may cause a monkey-fist knot to degrade more quickly over time? Can this be avoided? Glue maybe?
The issue of exposed hardware near the knot seems to be the final puzzle in constructing a perfect fire-head. Help me solve this problem.
Thanks,
Carl


A bird can fly, but a fly cant bird...

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:If youre going for wraps, monkey fists probably arent the way to go. Id suggest making a glow stick shaped/sized set of poi out of kevlar rope... Perhaps a long series of square knots or something - do some research on knot work/macrome.

Also, you dont even really have to worry about hardware if you wear protective clothing. Most people who do lots of wraps wear leather sleeves/gauntlets and such which lets you do anything without worrying about the burns. Even with no hardware, over time your skin will get fairly beat up without protection so you should probably wear something regardless.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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crazycarl
member
Location: Bellingham and Seattle, WA
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 21
Posted:I disagree that monkey-fists are not the way to go for wraps -- they are perfectly round which makes them "pop" off of wraps well, and (correct me if I'm wrong) they can be made in a variety of sizes, so weight isn't such a big issue.
As far as wearing protective clothing, it really isn't necessary as long as no exposed metal touches the skin. (Ballchain doesn't seem to conduct as much heat as, say, an eyebolt)
I usually wear a cotton shirt, but still, exposed hardware not only burns more, it also tangles more, adds more weight, etc.
I really want to find a way to design the fire-head so the chain can emerge DIRECTLY from the knot -- without causing the knot to fall apart from fraying/friction of the chain on the kevlar...
Carl


A bird can fly, but a fly cant bird...

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ImmortalAngel
Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 19th Jan 2004
Total posts: 578
Posted:if you have no hardware then your poi will get tangled very fast. You need a swivel if you're going to do any wraps.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:You dont need a swivel! Thats a myth! Mine are aswome and swivel's break over time and with heat.

I dont like monkey's they are way to heavy to wrap good and they are slow, and i can make better poi that WONT burn you because there is no head. Cant really give you any tips with vampire monkeys wink but i can Written by:
provide input on construction

on normall heads that reduce the chances of even getting burnt, and they are awsome for wraps.

Unless you want to sell them, otherwise u'll have to work it out yourself. :P


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:It's all about technique and construction. I do bareskin wraps with cathedrals and don't get burned. I'm not sure why you're so against hardware next to the head, whether its a swivel or part of the steel chain its still going to get hot. What does it matter if its heating the ballchain instead of a connector?



If you make them how you're describing every time you have to change your ballchain you need to remake your wicks.

EDITED_BY: Lurch (1109273924)


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:I agree with Lurch 100% - the ball cahin will heat fatigue and break long before the useful life of your monkey fists is over.

good idea, and ball chain is the only chain to spin with if you ask me, but you need a way to replace the ballchain before it fails, which it will - particularly if it is so close to the fire as to actually be part of the poi head.

Dragon7 is also corect - no swivel required with ballchain - it just adds hardware and more connections, and you want to reduce all that as much as possible for both weight and strength/safety reasons.

Monkey fists are a better shape for wraps than cathedrals for sure - less chance of locking due to rounded corners, but ICoN's idea of going with another shape is also very valid - conical shaped would in fact be even better than round for solving some of the problems associated with wraps.

I have always thought that a high temp composite materal would be the best thing for poi heads - low heat capacity, low rate of heat transference, high material strength, etc (downside is less shear strength than steel). just never seen something that would be appropriate hardware in this form that would be useful for making firepoi heads.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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crazycarl
member
Location: Bellingham and Seattle, WA
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 21
Posted:So what I seem to be hearing from everyone, is that it is dumb to try and make a monkey fist fire-head without using a connector to attach to the chain...
What I am also hearing is that NO-ONE uses monkey-fist wicks successfully for wraps....???
Doesn't anyone wrap regularly with Monkey-Fist Wicks? It seems like if they were just constructed to be smaller than HOP monkey-fists, they wouldn't be so heavy, and would still burn longer than a similarly sized/weighted wick because they are 100% kevlar -- no eyebolt or wooden/metal core...


A bird can fly, but a fly cant bird...

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:Yeah, I mean, monkey fists just werent made for wraps. You COULD do what you say but it wont really have the advantages youre expecting. The ball shape isnt the best for wraps no matter how you look at it (stick shape seems to be the best shape for this since they provide extra torque for bouncing off limbs) and protruding hardware is really not an issue with correct protection and/or technique. The only advantage you would have with using monkey fists is that they will burn longer than anything else, but at the same time, the flame will be smaller than anything else. And if you make them small, as you suggest, the flame will be extremely small and might even go out rather easily (since monkey fists already have a problem with extinguishing themselves mid spin due to their shape and how air flows around them).

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Like ICoN said, a tubecore type head would probably give you better results for your wraps, they are slightly more difficult to make without much exposed hardware, but anything can be done with the right know-how and materials.

Monkey's fists are actually kind of misleading volume wise. Yes it is "pure" kevlar, but you have to remember that it is a sphere, you are losing a lot of wicking by making it a ball. Think of a cube, you could fill that entire cube (cathedral style) to get the most volume you could from it, you could run a column down it (tubecore), or you could put a sphere inside of it and get even less.

The only "hardware" taking up space in my wicks is an eyebolt about the size of a pencil running down the center, I'm not even losing any of that wicking since I didn't cut it out, its just punched through it. With tubecores I can understand the argument about lost volume but there is more than one way to make them.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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jinvincible
jinvincible

king of the hedgehogs
Location: Madtown
Member Since: 18th Nov 2004
Total posts: 125
Posted:I understand the concern about overly subjecting the ball chain to heat - using stainless steel bc will help a bit, but I am of how the structural integrity will hold over time. Just off the top of my head: One possibility would be to extend the monkeyfist with the lead ends of the wick, maybe as much as 6 inches, then attaching your hardware to that. The kevlar should be strond enough, and you could even use some flame retardant on the leads to prevent heat damage.

Yellow and blue make green.

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originalsmit
originalsmit

addict
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall ...
Member Since: 28th Aug 2003
Total posts: 469
Posted:jinvincible is onto something, where you would normally cut the wick trailing off the monkey fist, just dont bother leave 2 foot or so, dont dunk the top foot and just hang onto the that, or tie a knot in that to hang onto or attach a normal (finger loop) handle.
be aware that there is such a thing as over engineering and the simplest design is often the best.
look at the snake, thats a perfect example.
as for poi good for wraps, well they would be but i have seen a better pair, catherdral with wire through instead of a bolt to hold everthing in place, the bottomw washer sewn under a layer of kevlar and the wire encased too, ive been looking for the company but cant find it among the myriad of manufacturers
if i find it ill report back


my original signature was tooo long.
this one is shorter

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Monkey Fists wrap just fine, I don't know what all this stuff about them not wrapping well is. I don't like swinging other wicks because they are NOT round. I do wraps all the time without issue.

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:No one said they dont wrap well. Just that there are other shapes which work better.

Out of curiosity though, why dont you like swinging non-round poi?


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:I don't know really... Cathedrals, tube cores... just never liked em. They feel off somehow. I began learning with beaming poi, so I guess I'm just more comfortable with them. Plus when doing hyperloops they come untangled pretty easily if you mess up.

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted::shrug: I learned on beamers and never had probs untangling my cathedrals. Whatever floats yer boat though.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)
Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)

resident bagpiper
Location: Vermont, USA
Member Since: 12th Jul 2003
Total posts: 342
Posted:i thouroughly disagree with the idea that monkey fists are bad for wraps. i do wraps a lot and have never had a problem... also, the weight is not unwieldy with normal sized fists, as long as you get used to spinning heavy things. its a matter of muscle tone and training, not a problem with the poi. true they are MUCH heavier than glowsticks, and somewhat heavier than tubecores, but they are not too heavy, if you get used to it. you can do any trick you do with tubecores with monkey fists, and they have no exposed hardware if made right... however, that is not much of a selling point, because, unless you screw up the metal is not on your skin long enough to do damage (unless you have really sensitive skin)

ballchain does not need a swivel because each link can pivot freely...hence each link is essentially its own swivel.

I personally prefer monkey fists for wraps, because the weight is concentrated on a smaller point when the head makes contact with the body, so the poi rebound with greater force, faster.

i.e. a sphere (monkey fist) makes contact with the side of a cylinder (arm/leg) at a point; a cylinder (tubecore) makes contact with another cylinder at a minimum of a point, but sometimes contacts across the length of a line; a shape that will mold itself to the cylinder (snakes, or any extended flexible wick) makes contact across the entire area of one face; a cube (cathedral) makes contact at a point only a tiny percentage of the time, mostly hitting on a line. obviously, the cube always makes contact over a minimum area, leading to a more powerful rebound.


Q:What's the difference between the Great Highland Bagpipes and the Northumbrian Pipes?
A:The Great Highland Pipes burn longer.

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FireMecca
member
Location: Tucson
Member Since: 30th Oct 2002
Total posts: 69
Posted:Carl,

If you are still interested in having your chain built-in, there are some simple methods for doing so, even using our construction method. But first:

1. On the subject of ballchain, I have experimented on built-in ballchain on cathedrals. Adam Rice has also done this, and I believe he is the first that I saw offer the option on his web-site. I have never had ballchain break on me--not even in this configuration. I am also fairly confident that Adam would not offer such options on his site without due consideration.

2. While I disagree that you will -definitely- have problems, as vanize indicates, I do agree with Lurch that there is not really any turning back. There are some fixes, though, such as cutting the chain shorter and adding a connector in, alowing you to replace most of the body.

This post is already getting a bit wordy; I can definitely offer some construction advice, if you want to PM me.

Matthew
Flamma Aeterna


That which does not kill me, only makes me stranger.

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