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Forums > Social Discussion > Taking care that medical or technical infomation you post is correct.

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:Ok I'm NOT putting up this thread to name, names or shame anyone but I feel something needs to be said.

Please can you take care what advice or information you give people when placing posts on this board. Sometimes people read things on the board and because its in type they take it to be utterly true and correct.

I noticed yesterday that someone had advised a person on burns, saying that you should put second and third degree burns under water for 10 mins. Anyone with medical knowledge would tell you NEVER to put burns where the skin is broken into water because of the potential for infection of the wound.

I know this information is available on this site in the Fire Safety pages, but this particular poster had obviously not read these pages.

Please just be careful with what you tell others when it comes to safety and technical information. If you get it wrong and they follow your advice and get hurt how will you feel? Pretty crappy I'm guessing.


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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Posted:Written by: Pele


I agree it is silly to simply take the word of a stranger on the net as gospel without double checking...but also do not underestimate the people that are here...or the fact that we know how to cover our bums.





Ah ok fair enough. I forgot about the liability thing, I was just saying because the forums i'm subscribed to in the UK are all big in the "no medical advice" thing... ubbrollsmile



(I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything with my warning btw....sorry if it came out that way)!

EDITED_BY: greenlizard0 (1124068199)


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Lizard,

That said...I happen to be legally allowed to dispense medical advice.

I'm also legally responsible for the advice I dispense, so I'm rather abstemious about it and I almost never give advice on specific people's problems over the web, although I'll give general information on a given condition if I'm comfortable doing so. I also make sure I read the current literature to ensure accuracy. It's along the lines of what Dr. Wiel or almost any other "ask the doctor" columnist does...except I don't run a column and I don't solicit questions.

I also don't answer questions I'm not comfortable answering.

Now, others aren't so careful. And that is why I think it's important to remember to CHECK YOUR SOURCE.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:*bump*

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Did you want some medical advice on how to treat that bump?

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JauntyJames
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

JauntyJames

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA

Total posts: 3533
Posted:I've never understood why putting water of 3rd degree burns is bad (although I'm well aware that there is indeed a reason so I take it to heart). Why is there a greater risk for infection than any other open wound?

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

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jeffhigh
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

Member
Location: Caves Beach, NSW

Total posts: 89
Posted:I do not know which is right or wrong, but some of the articles on the Hop site DO recommend wetting hair and clothing. so maybe this is an issue that needs resolving.
Not enough hair on my head to wory about.
Jeff


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I never knew putting a 2nd or 3rd degree burn underwater was bad! I had always gone with the usual: not butter, not vinegar, but water.

Must remember no water for those ones!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Kieron
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Member


Total posts: 232
Posted:Anyone in the UK ever done a first aid course by St John Ambulance or seen some of their booklets? As we have a habit of swinging flaming blunt objects at ourselves I thought it might be a good idea...but...my basic handed out booklet has the first instruction for severe burns as

"Start cooling the burn immeadiatly under running water"

and the fourth

"Continue to pour copious amounts of cold water over the burn for at least ten minutes or until the pain is relieved"

...most would consider them a valid source. The problem ranges far.


"I'm quite good at darts, though i often miss" - Kylie

"I'm not a bad driver, I just panic when theres other cars around" - Sarah

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:My mum is a nurse and first aid trainer so I have many sources for info in this field.

The advice from st johns ambulance is for severe burns where the skin is not yet broken.

Basically if you get a severe burn go to a doctor / hospital immediately. If you want to know what to do with it before you get there do a George Bush style pre-emptive strike wink Go ask the nurse at your local doctors surgery or if you are at school still go see your school nurse - they'll be more than willing to help and they all do weekly drop in sessions (in the uk). They may even advise specific products that you can buy over the counter to reduce pain / risk of infection.

To be totally honest though I've never seen a 'severe' burn from fire spinning yet. Use paraffin (it burns cold enough to do catches with the wicks), make sure someone always 'spots' you (watches you to inform when you are on fire), wear appropriate clothing (no matter how scouse you may be shell suits are not the way to go) and just be reasonably sensible.


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pricklyleaf
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1365
Posted:I've heard (from a first aid course) that you can wrap severe burns (including ones where the skin has broken) in cling film (but make sure it is clean stuff that hasn't been knocking around for ages, and don't touch any part of the cling film that will touch the wound, clean hands etc.). This helps prevent infection and foreign bodies from entering the wound and reduces the pain, the greatest pain from burns is caused by the sensation of air flowing over the wound. Of course you should always go to casulty immediatly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm not (just being extra cautious).


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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marco


enthusiast
Location: uk

Total posts: 328
Posted:Within the burn area (area of massive tissue destruction) most of the afferent sensory neurons, dermal nerve cells thought to be responsible for the transmission of pain information to the cortex will be at best severly interupted / destroyed in the event of a full thickness 3rd degree burn.



mark


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Again, please read the article I wrote on First Aid for Burns. It's in the "Articles" section.

The information in there is from reputable sources and is current.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:I feel the need to bump this thread again after seeing some incorrect medical advice being given in the Help forum Malaria thread.

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:I reckon this might make quite a useful sticky/announcment... save all the bumping, innit!

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:To cover a few queries...


Why burns are more likely to become infected than other kinds of open wounds:

Burns are an unnatural kind of wound, seeing as for every animal out there but one, and for that one, up until after they evolved to walk upright, fire is something they've avoided, so no animal has developed defenses against those kinds of wounds becoming infected. Cuts on the other hand need a lot of protection from infection, seeing as they'd come about from teeth and claws.

Cuts bleed, clot, and have the support of the cells in the surrounding tissue to fend off infections and repair the damage. In a burn the tissue is damaged to some deapth, so a lot of the defenses are simply not present. There is basically dead flesh attached to the body, which is much easier to become infected than something with live cells. From there the infection can spread.



Why some sources recommend flushing all burns with water:

In places where the water supply is chlorinated (with chlorine or the more effective chloramine) the water may be considered reasonably sterile at the tap (sterile enough that it is safe for introduction to the body through the mouth). I've no idea how sterile it could be considered when introduced to severe burns, although it looks like St. Johns Ambulance (in the UK where all mains water is treated with both chlorine and chloramine) considers it safe enough.

Bottled water isn't sterile, even if boiled, pasteurised, passed through sub micron filters, reverse osmosis, UV or ozone sterilisation before bottling. It can pick up microorganisms as soon as the top is removed, or before it is put into the bottles. Even if you were to leave a sealed bottle in sunlight, it would eventually have algae growing in it. It is the continued presence of chlorine in some country's mains water that keeps it sterile up until it comes out of the tap and the dissolved gas is slowly released into the air.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:i have a bottle in my car for a few months, no algae shrug

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted: Written by: polarity


Bottled water isn't sterile, even if boiled, pasteurised, passed through sub micron filters, reverse osmosis, UV or ozone sterilisation before bottling. It can pick up microorganisms as soon as the top is removed, or before it is put into the bottles. Even if you were to leave a sealed bottle in sunlight, it would eventually have algae growing in it. It is the continued presence of chlorine in some country's mains water that keeps it sterile up until it comes out of the tap and the dissolved gas is slowly released into the air.



I can attest to this fact. I've played with r/o water and enough UB set-ups to know there is never really a way to create perfect water. It'll grow something eventually.

Now, faithinfire, why your bottle of water in the car may not grow algae- as a side notation. Algaes generally feed on three things. Phosphates, nitrates, and light. Phosphates come in off of tap water and is easily filtered out with R/O water (however, for all you aquarium hobbyists thinking this is an anti-algae cure-all, phosphates also get into your system through some fish foods). Nitrates are the end product of the natural bacterial break down of foods and wastes from your fish. And light.... well.... duh. If you cut back on one or all of these, you won't grow algae in your tank.

Bottled water is generally low in phosphates, but the only real way to get the ppm down (like, to the single digit range) in regards to phosphates is to use a reverse osmosis filter. The best way I have ever heard an r/o unit simply described is to take water and cram it through a series of semi-permiable membranes to strip out impurities. Yum. So clean, that regularly drinking too much of it is rumored to be bad for you teeth(*you'll have to check with the resident Doc on that one - the principle seems sound to me, but I'm no doctor). However, it is a known fact that R/O water is so clean that, without being remineralized, it can be harmful to fish, especially those with particular needs in regards to water hardness such as rainbowfish.

Now, nitrates also play a big part. In aquatic environments, there is what is referred to as a nitrogen cycle that balances chemicals in the water. Fish poop and plants die, producing decaying matter. Bacteria break this down into ammonia. The ammonia is later broken down by aerobic bacteria (bacteria that generally bloom in your aquarium's filter cartidges and need water flow to survive) into nitrites (just as lethal to fish as ammonia). The nitrites are then broken down by anerobic bacteria (bacteria that do not need water flow) and are converted to nitrates. Nitrates are consumed by plants and algaes- which are eaten by fish, starting this whole thing over again. So, if there is no source of decaying material, there really is nothing to jump start the cycle.

Algae also feeds off of light (*some varieties- certain cyanobacteria are an entirely different breed of aquarium pest I don't care to get into that CAN survive without any light, as can certain forms of symbiotic algaes in corals). But, most algaes we think of need light in order to survive and thrive. So, if there the bottle was covered, there is no source of light.

..... *phew*

Long story short, just because you don't see algae, doesn't mean that it isn't there, or that there isn't bacteria in the water. It just means that the levels are in check to the degree that you do not have a visual effect. It just means that microscopic organisms are not multiplying and blooming enough to create a macroscopic influence.

.... redface my previous boss told me he hired me because he was in need of a fish geek and because I fit the bill. I'm sure there's a much more scientific explanation that I could give you, but this seemed the simplest and most effective. ubbrollsmile


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:small correction:





ammonia -> nitrite is done by nitrosomonas bacteria, which are aerobic.



nitrite -> nitrate is done by nitrobacter bacteria, which are also aerobic.





The anaerobic stage is where nitrate is converted to nitrogen gas. Only the most serious reef aquarium owners bother with this, because of the feeding and fine tuning that kind of filter needs to work, and the fact that anaerobic environments are also loved by bacteria that produce hydrogen sulphide, that will kill everything in the tank.





Do you keep fish? I had to give up because my brother's moved out, and I don't trust anyone else to look after them if I go away for more than a week, after someone covered my planted aquarium with Finding Nemo stickers.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:wow, polarity, is there anything you know nothing about?

A wealth of information! smile


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:I have no idea whatsoever as to why I'm here on this crazy planet.

You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted: Written by: polarity


ammonia -> nitrite is done by nitrosomonas bacteria, which are aerobic.

nitrite -> nitrate is done by nitrobacter bacteria, which are also aerobic.




*sigh*I always get nitrosomonas and nitrobacter out of order in my head for some odd reason. I don't know why.

.... you're not related to Danny Bradley, are you?

At the moment, I don't have any fish personally. I'm slowly amassing supplies to restart my 3 gallon nano-reef, but it's been really hard to find what I want in the area. All the pet stores in the area are under the impression that saltwater in general is hard (*like darn near impossible hard).

Well, I do have one fish, if you count my mum's betta. She's under the impression that they only live for three months, because the ones she had while I was away at college were short-lived. Mysteriously, this one is doing much better! wink

I also don't know where you're located, so I'm not sure I can really help.


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:umm

ubblol


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:Agreed.

ubblol


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:It wouldn't be saltwater if it wasn't hard wink

Most of the pet stores round here don't like me, because they know I spent a year at college doing Aquatics and Ornamental Fish Management (because I applied to them all for work placement), so they can't sell me the overpriced stuff, and I always want fish/plants they haven't got (I started buying everything on the internet).

I think I'm going to stick to scuba diving, now I've experienced a coral reef 18m down.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted:It's not hard. It's just.... less forgiving.

Yeah, I'm hitting a similar problem around here. The pet shops in Atlanta all knew me because, since I worked under Danny, I was "Danny Bradley's protege." They didn't like me by association (Danny was smart and fair, but painfully honest at times). I couldn't go anywhere without being either treated poorly, ignored altogether, or followed like a hawk by employees.

Now, in NJ, I accidentally developed the same stigma after a rather heated discussion about African cichlids.


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:That I can understand. Too many people think rift lake cichlids are community fish, and easy to keep.

You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted:Oh, no, this was a better argument.

Since you obviously know you fish, you should appreciate this one. Low pH (like South American cichlid low) with a high protein diet (we're talking guppies, goldfish *shudder* krill, and all sorts of foods truly designed with South Ams at heart). But, the kicker to the discussion was this.

"I've been doing it for years without a problem, so it MUST be right."

.... *sigh* But, then again, they're attempting to keep anemones (*like sebaes and ritteris) under standard lighting in systems treated with copper, so I shouldn't have expected much from even their more experienced staff. *giggle* They can't figure out why their anemones keep melting down.


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:If you're doing it the wrong way and it's working in a pet store, it's only because the fish aren't in your tanks long enough to see the damage you're doing.

Yup, reef aquariums are next to impossible when you're unaware that nearly all the static invertebrates photosynthesise, and that copper is used to kill fish parasites because below dosages that harm the fish it still kills everything else in the tank (except the snails, who I'm convinced are capable of time travel, some of the methods I've tried to get rid of them).


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Can...ummm....we get back to topic? wink

Thanks!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted:Sorry. It just started as a side testimonial on the lack of purity to bottled water and even r/o water to keep people from pouring it on open wounds (whether burns or otherwise) and thinking it's perfect water.

Polarity, pm me and we can continue any further discussion.

Sorry, Pele, mods, and everyone else. redface

But, it was a definite digression. Suffice it to say from that whole random tangenting: my belief is, when in doubt, consult a pro. Your local hospital, emergency phone service (911), or ER can provide 24/7 medical services, and, if you don't want to tax their resources with seemingly minor injuries, you can also see if there is a local urgent care center. Those facilities are there for a reason.

C'mon, what's the worst they can say?
"Holy crap, you're an idiot doing that fire stuff, and you've just wasted my time and yours. But don't worry, those cute nurses and the rest of the doctors and I are going to laugh over this for a long time. Here's your bill."

..... er.... yeah, I'm not sure if that makes a compelling argument, but that's my logic on the matter of internet dispensed medical advice (*no offense to any docs on the board) in regards to an emergency situation.


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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Page: 123

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