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Forums > Social Discussion > theories of earth creation

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Nucleopoi
Nucleopoi

chemical attraction
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
Member Since: 6th Nov 2004
Total posts: 1097
Posted:there are many ways that people think the world began:the big bang theory,god or other scientific explanations.
what do you believe initiated/caused the world to be created?



Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:ubblol @ Fanged's edit

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!


BurdaA
BurdaA

Sacrebleu
Location: At the quiet limit
Member Since: 20th Jul 2007
Total posts: 377
Posted:*Steps crunchily through thread*

Who left all these egg shells lying around?


Poi(poi~y) n. : A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
- part owner of Wooktastic


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:All I am saying is I don't make fun of any of your beliefs please respect mine

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Of course that's the problem, belief and science are mutually exclusive.

All the Catholic church did was try to rewrite the definition of day to mean something like era in an attempt to force their liberal, figurative viewpoints to appear somewhat compatible with the scientific viewpoint.

Christianity does equal creationism, regardless of what the apologetics say.



faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:No they are not. Faith is. Belief is not. I can believe that when I drop a penny that it will fall. I can believe in evolution.

And there are thousands of Christians who work in science, Millions who believe in evolution.

Most Catholics dont' believe in a literal Bible, as well as a large number of Christians too.

What you said is just slander and absolutely untrue.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:slander???

Gravity has nothing to do with belief.



faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:censored this



I don't think I can be part of board that allows this sort thing. It's okay if I have any alternative belief but heaven forbid that I have a standard belief system.



I'm going into lurk mode and now I know people like me will never be welcome here.



edit:

see now the edit, fanged, is funny smile

For people who would like to see what Catholics believe or don't believe and what the Church says or doesn't

http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp



most people think all Christians are fundamentalists. WE AREN'T

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1207338011)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by : faith

All I am saying is I don't make fun of any of your beliefs please respect mine



Making fun of someones belief =/= disrespect (IMHO). Please do make as much fun as you can, Faith. I like to laugh and there is no better than a healthy laugh at my own personality and what it comprises.

If I'm making fun and happen to offend anyone by doing so, it's not my intention. If I find myself to take offence, than usually it is on my own account - serves a purpose.

Personally I feel that 'Creationism' and 'Darwinism' do not necessarily contradict each other (I've stated that earlier in another thread), but I'm certain that 'spirituality' and 'fundamentalism' are opposing forces - just as 'Christianity' and 'Catholicism'.

'Catholicism' (IMHO) is a corrupted version of Jesus' teachings.

But any which way: We're all stating our (current) opinion here, same as you do. Personally I do neither believe that there's a single guy running around on X-Mess, distributing presents, nor do I believe in a bunny giving birth to coloured eggs in millions of backyards.

It usually is a characteristic of fundamentalists to take offence when their beliefs are questioned by either funny or reasonable arguments. Usually they are only satisfied when treated with 'serious respect' - at the same time disrespecting other ways of life/ approaches to spirituality.

 Written by : joke

Guy dies and finds himself on a fluffy sun drenched grassy area with lots of fluffy animals around and beautiful music playing in the background. He sighs: "Wow, I made it to heaven. How'd I deserve this? I never went to church and never been much of a religious person?"

Someone taps on his shoulder and as he turns around, he looks into the red face of a creature that greatly resembles the image of the devil. He's shocked and confused, the Devil calms him down: "I know you're confused, there has been a lot of bad rumours going around about this place, relax and I'll show you around."

He takes the guy for a float and they see a beautiful palace: "That's your new home, Frank." The guy walks in and out and is stunned about the elaborate artwork on the ceilings, the art deco furniture, the pool and the surrounding park. "Man!" he exclaims, "this place is awesome! I never dared to dream this could be so nice!"

So the devil takes him further and they're passing a football ground, a gym, tennis court and the like: "This is our recreational area, you're free to use them any time."

Some time later he sees an auditorium where people sit together, play chess and all kinds of games, talk and laugh and seem to really enjoy themselves. "This is our social area," the devil points out, "any time you like you'll find people who you can interact with." Shortly after they're passing an Amphitheatre where people dance and party. "24/7 you can come here and celebrate. As a matter of fact we also have counsellors and teachers that would be happy to help you with anything you could ever think of, whatever you want to learn, just ask."

On the way back, the guy says: "Dude, that's such a great place! So peaceful and creative. I got to admit I was falling for all these hoaxes... But tell me what's behind this?" pointing at a huge brick wall in the distance. "Errm, well if you really like to know I'll show you," the devil responds.

When peeking over the wall, the guy sees a massive area of people, tied to crosses, with demons splinters under their fingernails, torture them with fervent iron rods, pierce them with fishing hooks and burning them on stakes.

He's in complete shock and irritated asks the devil: "Hey, what's this, man?"

The devil responds: "Oh, these are only the Catholics, Muslims and Jews, they can't stand it any other way."



Thus said I do accept that to many, spirituality equals living in a cage, putting ashes on their heads and fully denouncing the sunny side of life. It's their choice. I'm just not inclined to follow their views.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Back on topic and to correct myself:

"ID and evolution do not necessarily contradict each other"

If we were to find a hospitable planet somewhere in the (know) Universe and would send a probe(?) containing (basic) DNA to this planet, there would potentially be life (as we know it) evolving there. Of course this would be absolutely unethical, hence there is a possibility.

Now IF we'd imagine doomsday scenario on this planet (and now tell me that none of you like what we got here) - how likely would it be that some sick scientists try to spawn life as we know it onto another planet?

Now if you can follow this analogy - how about the possibility that this already happened (here)?

Faith: I'm not even assuming that *you* are a fundamentalist, which makes me one of the 'least' ppl ... I feel special hug smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted: Written by :FireTom


"ID and evolution do not necessarily contradict each other"




Of course they do. evolution is a scientific theory, ID is trying to hijack that theory while trying to fill in the gaps in evolutionary theory by saying God did it.

Anyways, the spaceship/DNA theory is a biogenesis/abiogenesis issue which is only one small part of ID theory and quickly dismissed by ID proponents as being a valid explanation as they pose that begged question " well isn't it obvious who the designer really is ? "



FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:What is that YOU connect to this three letter combo: "G" "O" "D"?



It has to be much different to my connotation.



I once complained about long, time/ energy consuming and frustrating discussions. The guy next to me said:



"Don't try to argue with people who act like fools - they drag you to their level and beat you with experience."



Later I found out that I by myself act like a fool trying to convince others, which is not the same as explaining my self.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ahhhhh. a non-standard, subjective definition of a commonly understood idea. Gotta watch those. I suppose i could redefine the word God to mean gravity, and then I could say that God has a place in science.


fanged_angel
fanged_angel

poiromaniac
Location: liverpool, uk
Member Since: 11th Jul 2007
Total posts: 162
Posted:faithinfire im glad the edit is ok sorry about the first one i didnt think people would find it as offensive as some did so if your still there, lurking in the shadows, im sorry.

enough of that back to ranting... only messing but still theres no such thing as anti enegy and id just like to bring up that any fundamental particle can appear in any place in space at any time, so long as the mass of the particle and the time it exists for does not exceed planks constant (but dont quote me on that it could be a different one) so whats to say our existance isnt just a flash in the pan for another universe or that our whole universe doesnt just make up a single atom of another, much larger one, ad infinitum



faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I'm always here *evil laughter from the shadows*

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Have any of you playing along using our home version of this game come to the conclusion that what I said about the Catholic church and their redefining the meaning of the word day, was indeed true?

First...there's this from the church.

 Written by

How much weight should the Catechism's statement be given? The Church does not proclaim it infallibly. While the Catechism contains many individual points of theology that are infallibly defined, the Pope and the bishops did not, in composing the Catechism, choose to make a fresh exercise of the Church's infallibility. The kind of language needed to issue a new definition isn't used. As a result, points that were not defined before the Catechism remain undefined.

It would be fair to say that the Catechism's statement makes the symbolic view the official interpretation of the Catholic Church on the six days. But this does not mean that the Holy See would regard those who take a literal view as sinning (committing the sins of dissent or incredulity).

As noted above, the authority of a teaching "becomes clear from the nature of the documents, the insistence with which a teaching is repeated, and the very way in which it is expressed." The fact it is mentioned in the Catechism indicates that the view is to be taken seriously. But the fact that it is introduced in a magisterial text for the first time here, that it has not been oft-repeated, and that it is not expressed in a forceful way (i.e., "the faithful are obliged to hold") suggest that the Holy See would not have a problem with individual Catholics maintaining a literal interpretation.

Indeed, the recent history of this question has strongly emphasized liberty of interpretation. To introduce the symbolist view in such a casual manner suggests that Rome is wanting to establish more of an official position than it has to this point, yet still not disturb individuals who are attached to the literal view, which heretofore has been both permitted and even historically dominant.

The question of how the six days are to be interpreted should remain an active one in Catholic circles for some time to come.




And then there's this academic paper.........

There's also this amusing rant.

So where's the "slander" ?



faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:What are you trying to prove because you provide no actual progression to the discussion other than to unfairly target Catholics. A group which you have shown to have little understanding about in other conversation we have had. Oh, no, people disagree!

Why should creationists be sinning? What are they doing that is morally wrong?

And please what is the ratio of those that are creationists v. id/evolution?

Your last to links are biased so they do no even deserve to be addressed other than to say people talk about things they don't understand as well as take things out of context.

evilbible.com? Seriously

Maybe you're right. Maybe it's libel as you suggested. Either way I don't think that your posts meet the posting guidelines.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:faith

You're putting an awful lot of effort into attacking my character ( yes, i read your intro thread) and if you put even a fraction of that effort into defending your position, this would be a much more fruitful endeavour.

What is your position exactly ? Your assertion that I'm lying about the Catholic church's "have their cake and eat it too" stance on evolution/creation.

ID is nothing more than a pseudo-science created ( designed ? ) expressly for the purpose of reintroducing the concept of creation into the classroom, nothing more.



simta
simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings
Member Since: 11th Apr 2006
Total posts: 1182
Posted: Written by :faithinfire


And please what is the ratio of those that are creationists v. id/evolution?




i dont think you can group id and evolution together like that, if anything it would be

creationists/id vs. evolution


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:yes you can in fact group the two together. God started the ball rolling-evolution got us here or God is how, evolution is why.



I never said that ID was science-at least not lately



I think creationist are weird



And stout where is it that I attacked your character unfoundedly, as opposed to questioning your motivations

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1208280162)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


simta
simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings
Member Since: 11th Apr 2006
Total posts: 1182
Posted: Written by :faithinfire


I never said that ID was science-at least not lately




by grouping them like you did, it does imply that


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:you inferred I did not imply
since we were talking religion and all it should be obvious that I was not implying anything.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Mascot
Mascot

enthusiast

Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 301
Posted:DISCLAIMER- Post may be rude or offensive. If so good..get offended see if it helps.

I saw this thread and my heart sank.
I thought;
"There will be three types of people posting here......those with foolish religious/spiritual notions they've yet to grow out of, those making some inane wisecrack in a one sentence post probably bored out of their skulls at work and those patiently explaining a rational scientific view."
I thought;
" What will happen is that the rational group will get into a flaming argument with the hippies* and the hippies, lacking any evidence or means of fighting such an arguement will get offended and blather something about respecting beliefs"

Getting offended is a classic spiritualist maneuver. The thinking seems to be if you can't win a rational argument get it shut down and make the other side feel bad for starting it by getting offended. After all if you can't win and you can't walk away from the mountain of stupid you've climbed what else can you do but storm off in a huff.

I then thought;
"I should probably weigh in on the side science and rationality and all but do I really have the energy to fight the good fight all over again only to achieve another hollow victory as the opponents of reason get offended, leave us in possession of the field and wander else where to start new "changing the world with the power of thought" threads or "Feeling the power of Ley Lines" threads or "Aliens invaded my brain and stole my rationality" threads or whatever."

I then resolved to read the thread first so as not to be prejudiced. Damn but was I right or what. Prejudice is a damning word these days but we'd never really get by without it, we have so many decisions to make in life we can't research all of them. Prejudice is often justified.

Besides I'm a veteran of the legendary Valura "Do you believe in Auras" thread.

I read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins a while back. He did change the way I think in one way. I used to think he was a dick, he was right but did he have to ram it down peoples throats? He had become a poster boy for the militant atheists and I always thought that Atheists didn't need to convert people, religions needed to spread their ideas from person to person like a disease and atheists should be above that.

Richard Dawkins made me realize that I was wrong. I realized that it's about time somebody stood up for atheism and took a stand. In fact it's a remarkably mild mannered stand really. Richard Dawkins is hardly a fire and brimstone preacher. Preaching death and the apocalypse for all non-believers is standard religious practice and they get offended by someone rationally suggesting that they may be making an error.

Religious community "Everyone who doesn't agree with us is wrong and will go to hell and suffer for all eternity"

Dawkins "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong"

Religious community "How dare you insult our beliefs?"

If somebody said I believe that Hillary Clinton would make the best president I might have a sensible argument with them. I might argue that fuel prices should be lower or higher. But if somebody says I believe that faery spirits roam the earth feeding on the souls of woodland creatures and maintaining the natural world I'm supposed to respect their beliefs?

It's the one thing that you're not socially allowed to argue about.....why? because there is no argument to be had there's just gullible naive fools who can't justify their views they can only get offended.



*Note: When I refer to hippies here I mean specifically the "spiritualist" brand of hippy.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


simta
simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings
Member Since: 11th Apr 2006
Total posts: 1182
Posted: Written by :Mascot

It's the one thing that you're not socially allowed to argue about.....why? because there is no argument to be had there's just gullible naive fools who can't justify their views they can only get offended.




wink


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle


Mascot
Mascot

enthusiast

Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 301
Posted:Ok

My last post was incendiary to say the least and I've calmed down a bit. I'm going to leave it up but I think it is actualy a bit unwarranted. I read the thread looking to have my prejudices confirmed and on a first reading they were. On a closer reading there is no real spiritualist nonsense here and only faithinfire has been offended and even then only by someone equating all Christians with creationists which is not true and an understandable objection. Actually (more or less) scientific views seem to be in the ascendancy.

I apologize for the unwarranted aggression of my first post (though it did feel good to write).


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


natasqi
natasqi

addict
Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted:I love it when people ask me if I'm religious...



"I'm antitheist"

"Huh?"

"I am don't believe in God, I am actively AGAINST religion, in fact, religion is the root of all conflicts in the world and it should be banned..."

"Oh... "

"But feel free to talk to me about it! smile"



As for the creation of the world - I think the topic is not only beyond me, I think it's very Earth-centric idea. I don't like Earth centric ideas, along with country centric or human centric...



How do you think the moon was created?



simta
simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings
Member Since: 11th Apr 2006
Total posts: 1182
Posted: Written by :Mascot

even then only by someone equating all Christians with creationists which is not true and an understandable objection.



nope, but all creationists are christians


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle


Chelly
Chelly

Niraffe
Location: Up north
Member Since: 17th Mar 2006
Total posts: 884
Posted: Written by :simta



nope, but all creationists are christians





ubblol True, but so were/are many famous scientists....



Michael Faraday, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, James Clerk Maxwell, the Wright brothers, Francis Bacon.....heck, even Einstein...



 Written by : that gent that figured out that e=mc2 wink

"I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."





Which I think was earlier in his life. But he couldn't reconcile himself to a personal God, one who interferes and concerns him/her/itself with life on a daily basis, more the idea of appreciating the beauty of the world and its creation I think.





 Written by : same mad-haired physicist

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."





ubbrollsmile

EDITED_BY: Chelly (1209122758)


"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly

"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus

---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--


simta
simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings
Member Since: 11th Apr 2006
Total posts: 1182
Posted: Written by :Chelly


 Written by :simta


nope, but all creationists are christians



ubblol True, but so were/are many famous scientists....

Michael Faraday, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, James Clerk Maxwell, the Wright brothers, Francis Bacon.....heck, even Einstein...




yep but just cos someone has done some cool stuff doesnt mean they're always right or that i have to respect everything they hold true.

and you have to realise the times they were in, where they could have been strung up for expressing pure atheistic thoughts


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle


Chelly
Chelly

Niraffe
Location: Up north
Member Since: 17th Mar 2006
Total posts: 884
Posted:Of course you don't have to hold everything they say as true. That is the joy of having the power of reason. It's much easier for a theist to say "God did it", or "God had a hand in this" and truly believe it, than it is for scientists to come up with a single unquestionable solution as to the life, the universe(s) and everything. (Which of course, is 42 biggrin)

I personally don't believe, but I can understand why people do.

Now, you may argue with a theist that they can't prove that a deity exists. But they may retort with the simple fact that you cannot prove that it does not. Therefore the whole thing is philosophical, and probably not worth getting all het up over.

hug

(Although Mascot - I did like your post very much)


"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly

"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus

---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted: Written by :Mascot


On a closer reading there is no real spiritualist nonsense here and only faithinfire has been offended and even then only by someone equating all Christians with creationists which is not true and an understandable objection. Actually (more or less) scientific views seem to be in the ascendancy.




Hi Mascot.

I hope you're not referring to me. If so, you may want to do a reread because I'm all about opposing ID here, not creationism. "Helping with a wayward amoeba" is ID.



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