Forums > Social Discussion > Does HoP Glamorise Fire Breathing!

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Posted:I'm wondering what people's perspectives are on this.

On the one hand there are a lot of great discussions on the danger. But on the other hand you have plenty of pictures in the galleries that seem to just glamorise it without any useful information.

Does anyone think this is hypocritical?

Cheers!


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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:I DEFINATLY agree with you!

I have seen so many pics in the gallery going on and on about how great fire breathing is.
It annoys me a fair bit.

Im really glad you started this thread because I agree 100 percent.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:in agreement 100%

i feel that because to most peopple it seems a kewl thing to do, People wish to show that they can do it even though it is very dangerous. They do this by posting photos in the galleries.

My feeling is this, from a photo or a video, you can distinguish what is good or bad technique with fire breathing, those that look bad sould be taken down or have at least a warning in the photos details!.
I know this could mean more work for malcolm and the mods but for every ones well being, i think that it is nessesary for this to happen.

fire breathing = not cool!
fire breathing = extremly dangerous.

end off!.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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snork
member

Member Since: 10th Feb 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:PK if your equation was correct, then their wouldn't be a problem. Apparently fire breathing does equal cool, otherwise people wouldn't want to do it.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I don't visit the gallery much and I generally have images disabled when using the board so I don't get to see the photos at the top of the page.

So I don't know how many fire breathing photos get put up here.

If there's a lot going up then IMO, it's not good.

I think that HOP is a really useful resource when it comes to people seeking info on fire breathing; as well as FAQs and posts with loads of info, it also has realistic warnings about the dangers.

Sadly, that is probably because of the numbers in this community who have been badly hurt whilst fire breathing, or who have friends who've been hurt.

I think this is an excellent thread and I've not really thought about the photo issue till tonight.

My immediate gut feelings are that photos do glamorise fire breathing without conveying any useful info; to that extent I'm inclined to say that photos of fire breathing are bad.

But I'll be interested in seeing if anyone has a different view on this.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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snork
member

Member Since: 10th Feb 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:well, everytime the word fire breathing appears anywheres on this webpage it links to a big article/warning educating all those who read it. Isn't it up to people themselves to decide if they think it's a good idea? all the information is avaible and is very hard to miss.

If fire breathing is so horrible, why when I type staff burnoff it doesn't link to a warning? It's a big fireball in close proximity to ones face, if one were engulfed and inhaled the burning vapours and fuels they would possibly die, just like fire breathing.


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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:Written by: snork

PK if your equation was correct, then their wouldn't be a problem. Apparently fire breathing does equal cool, otherwise people wouldn't want to do it.




so when is fire breathing kewl??? explain to me... and most of all explain to pele also who wrote hops fire breathing articles why you feel that it is kewl.

yes it does look stunning, it is excitable but.... when you have 5 people that you are good friends with end up in intensive care and they do this professionally for a living, and it is a complete accident byond their control then how so is this kewl?.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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snork
member

Member Since: 10th Feb 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Main Entry: 1cool
Pronunciation: 'kl
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English col, from Old English cOl; akin to Old High German kuoli cool, Old English ceald cold -- more at COLD
1 : moderately cold : lacking in warmth
2 a : marked by steady dispassionate calmness and self-control <a cool and calculating administrator -- Current Biography> b : lacking ardor or friendliness <a cool impersonal manner> c of jazz : marked by restrained emotion and the frequent use of counterpoint d : free from tensions or violence <meeting with minority groups in an attempt to keep the city cool>
3 -- used as an intensive <a cool million dollars>
4 : marked by deliberate effrontery or lack of due respect or discretion <a cool reply>
5 : facilitating or suggesting relief from heat <a cool dress>
6 a of a color : producing an impression of being cool; specifically : of a hue in the range violet through blue to green b of a musical tone : relatively lacking in timbre or resonance
7 slang a : very good : EXCELLENT; also : ALL RIGHT b : FASHIONABLE 1 <not happy with the new shoes... because they were not cool -- Celestine Sibley>
- coolish /'k-lish/ adjective
- coolly also cooly /'k(l)-lE/ adverb
- coolness /'kl-n&s/ noun
synonyms COOL, COMPOSED, COLLECTED, UNRUFFLED, IMPERTURBABLE, NONCHALANT mean free from agitation or excitement. COOL may imply calmness, deliberateness, or dispassionateness <kept a cool head>. COMPOSED implies freedom from agitation as a result of self-discipline or a sedate disposition <the composed pianist gave a flawless concert>. COLLECTED implies a concentration of mind that eliminates distractions especially in moments of crisis <the nurse stayed calm and collected>. UNRUFFLED suggests apparent serenity and poise in the face of setbacks or in the midst of excitement <harried but unruffled>. IMPERTURBABLE implies coolness or assurance even under severe provocation <the speaker remained imperturbable despite the heckling>. NONCHALANT stresses an easy coolness of manner or casualness that suggests indifference or unconcern <a nonchalant driver>.

Well lets see, the issue of this conversation is how their are lots and lots of pictures of people fire breathing in the gallery. One of the many meanings of the word cool is fashionable.

Gee, I wonder how it could be cool.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: snork

PK if your equation was correct, then their wouldn't be a problem. Apparently fire breathing does equal cool, otherwise people wouldn't want to do it.



There's a lot about fire breathing that is not cool: -

two of my friends seriously damaged by it

the number of times I've seen children fire breathing; children as young as 10 who have got no concept whatsoever of how wrong it can go; while everyone around them urges them on by telling them how 'cool' they are

the number of people on HOP who've been seriously hurt

the fact that tonight there's another thread on which a new member is being seriously urged to seek medical attention as they've just had a fire breathe go wrong, and their immediate approach to it has been to get drunk to kill the pain, because they don't understand that harm from a blowback develops over the hours and days after the actual accident

I agree with PK; fire breathing is not cool.

What is cool is that HOP provides a balanced view, because it's one of the very few places that does stress the very real dangers of fire breathing.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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snork
member

Member Since: 10th Feb 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Ok. I hereby reset the definition of the word cool to what it says in the dictionary.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:7 slang a : very good : EXCELLENT; also : ALL RIGHT b : FASHIONABLE

is the part of the definition you highlighted.

people dying is not what I consider to be 'very good' or 'excellent'


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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snork
member

Member Since: 10th Feb 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:You missed the fashionable part.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:There is no WAY HoP Glamorise fire breathing! You cant even talk about it, people will rip you a new one. And i agree with snork about the burn off. Burn off is nearly as dangerous as breathing. You get your planes wrong and your roast your face, and the vapour is worse.

Everytime a newb starts a thread about breathing, it usually ends with them being told off by alot of the older members, which is awsome.

As far as cool, yea i think its up there, pretty cool. I love the rush, the pillar, you know the skill lvl it takes to blow your perfect pillar?!? How to sustain and not pull out at the last second, its damn hard and even more dangerous. I miss breathing, i think about it alot, and often i just want to go blow huge fireballs, but its been over 8 months since i my last fire breathing session.

The worst things for me are the headach's in the morning after, the bad taste in your mouth, and the mist that gets in your eyes. My breathing suffered alot, it was one of the main reasons for quiting. It feels alot better now though.

I do think it should be ok to talk about it though, to get the message accross to the newb's about the "behind the scenes" dangers. Instead of sweep it under the rug and try not to bring it up. In that respect i think hop is good for having all this info about fire breathing. Its a start anyway...


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: pk ....:

[and most of all explain to pele also who wrote hops fire breathing articles why you feel that it is kewl.




The thing is, it isn't cool. Attempt to get a performance position based on fire breathing and see what it gets you. Not much.
I can not begin to tell you how many times I, and my professional peers, have heard "Fire breathers are a dime a dozen, what else do you do?"

And really, *VERY FEW* people do it in a way that is intriguing. Otherwise it is spitting and if you've seen it once, well...

I spent *years* working on it and had multitudes of stunts that I did with it, and in the end, a standard breath is what nearly killed me.

I absolutely challenge those who are backyard breathers for no apparent reason than feeling they need something other than their personalities to make them interesting to find a better hobby. It won't make you rich. It is an effect that lasts moments, even in the minds of people, and really how is this for cool...

You see a hot guy/chick so you fire breathe to impress him/her.
S/he comes to talk to you afterward.
You are standing there with an oily chin from the fuel, even if you wipe it, there is a residue.
You have fuel stinking breath, and there is the strong possibility you will be belching fuel burps for an hour or so after.
There is the chance that if your plume was large enough you have singed hair, so there you have that smell, and how attractive the short, fried ends are.
Your lips are dry and most likely you are finding something to eat or drink to get rid of the taste, the feel and really that cotton mouth.
Yup...it makes a person so attractive and cool. umm

I encourage everyone to make a list of the things in life they love, and how they would feel if it was taken away from them, even for a year. That is what fire breathing did for me.


So, back to the original question. Does HoP glamorize Fire Breathing? HoP does not, but the people here do. There is a distinct seperation of the two. The videos and photo's and topics put here are the choice of the participants, not the HoP staff. HoP attempts to discourage people from fire breathing, but we also attempt to provide information because we know that people are going to try it anyway.

In my opinion, HoP and HoPpers have glamorized the use of fire over all to a degree that really turns me ill. Actually, let me amend that, as it goes well beyond HoP. The VAST majority of spinners that I have met, HoP or not, have glamorized the use of fire unnecessarily.
Truthfully, and I say this to people all the time, why do you use fire and run the risk of being injured when you do not have to? It is not cool, it is overdone and if you are in it for the fire, I say light a camp fire or a regular stick.

I disagree with it but I still teach safety, because it is better than turning my back on it and having someone be injured.

But then, I am very opinionated in this area.

I agree that videos and photo's of poorly done fire should not be posted unless used as examples of what not to do. Yet, who would be the judge of that?
Who is going to pay the person who has to sit and review the videos, because it *will* take up alot of time, and the mods and admin here at HoP do alot as it is, and have our own lives and jobs additionally?

Do I think Fire Breathing should be on Circles of Light? Absolutely not. But that is ultimately not my decision.

Do I think that the HoP Shop should sell fire breathing torches?
Absolutely not. But I have no control of that either, and would never assume that I have the right to tell Malcolm what he can or can not do.

Do I think fire breathing should be a focal point of HoP?
Absolutely not.

Do I think that some of our info is *legally* only available to people over the age of 18 is fair when there are 14 year olds dieing on their first attempt at fire breathing?
Nope. But it is necessary from a legal standpoint.

We do what we can to protect others, but the thing is, it is up to each individual to be responsible. To study, to research, to learn, and then to really evaluate the importance of their lives vs. what they do.
Do I believe alot of people actually do this?
Not in the least. I don't know anyone who spent as much time as I did researching and studying before even attempting to light anything on fire. And I truthfully think very few do much research at all. I applaude those that do, and I give a standing ovation for those that do and decide their lives are more important that this adrenaline rush.

We do our job. We provide information. Heck, everytime Fire Breathing is typed in that little warning thing attaches. But it only works if people click the link. Everyone who visits the site decides what he or she will do with it, if they choose to look at it at all.

That is not being hypocritical, it is being responsible to the limits we are able to be.

Just my opinion though.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Posted:Isn't there already an option to report media in the gallery? If it was HoP's policy to not allow pics of fire breathing in the gallery, I'm sure there would be plenty of people who would let the mods know when one was put up!



Otherwise, isn't it kind of like a gun catalogue claiming that it doesn't condone the use of firearms?


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Malcolm
Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP
Member Since: 18th Nov 2003
Total posts: 992
Posted:I have added some script to add Fire Breathing warnings to images in the gallery.



eg: click here

I think people are going to see fire breathing even if pictures are removed from this site. especially in movies (even Lilo and Stitch) the best thing to do is educate about the risk and dangers, after all at the end of the day people are ultimately going to make the decission for themselves if they want to do it or not.

Sadly I can not make this site nor these arts completely idiot proof. Remember even just Fire alone is dangerous.


"May your balls always burn"

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Posted:Thanks Malcolm! smile

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Alfred
Alfred

Altyd Brandend
Location: Orange County, California, US...
Member Since: 23rd Jul 2003
Total posts: 149
Posted:HOP does not Glamorise Fire Breathing. i am a case in point.I ussed to breathe before i joined HOP,and i did my research before i lit stuff up.But now i dont breathe anymore and the only reason i have a pic of me breathing in my gallery is a token for myself that i can do it if i choose to do it.But i choose not to.

Spinning makes my world go round

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Posted:So why is it in the gallery and not on your pc? As its been pointed out, maybe its not HoP that glamorises, but rather some of the members?

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:Written by: snork

Well lets see, the issue of this conversation is how their are lots and lots of pictures of people fire breathing in the gallery. One of the many meanings of the word cool is fashionable.

Gee, I wonder how it could be cool.



rolleyesnaw sorry snork i still fail to see your point in fire breathing IS cool, justy because you can post just the definition of the word, if your going to give you two cents have a valid point.
this is a BIG DEAL thread in my eyes and any one that thinks that fire breathing is cool needs to be educated.

Do you suffer with your teeth rotting because you used to fire breath for a living from hours of fuel filled mouth.
NO but i do, one of the sad after effects that can be caused by fire breathing. And i get it..... its not nice and its not cool.



maybe Snork i will just hug you and pray for you. hug


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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marco
enthusiast
Location: uk
Member Since: 27th May 2004
Total posts: 327
Posted:
Deciding whether to remove image(s) of myself firebreathing from gallery,

mark


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snork
member

Member Since: 10th Feb 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:so.. the dictionary is not valid?

Well, I choose to change the meaning of the words of "maybe snork I will just hug and pray for you." to "I will now" give you a large quantity of money"

Thank you for the money.


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Flame Boy
Flame Boy

veteran
Location: Out
Member Since: 13th Jul 2004
Total posts: 1508
Posted:Seeing breathing is most dangerous thing you can do with fire (as far as my sweet and innocent mind knows) only peeps really confidant with fire do it, and peeps admire and respect confidance, so normal peeps cant help but feel a little in awe of the peeps that spout flames from their mouths devil

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! My giant stick broke!!! In two!!! My stick broke in two!!! ubbcrying

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Flame Boy
Flame Boy

veteran
Location: Out
Member Since: 13th Jul 2004
Total posts: 1508
Posted:oops, not finished yet:

Obviously HOP realised peeps would feel this way, and the more venturous members would want to do breathing too to be like the others, so I think HOP is obligated to make sure (or at least do their best) that peeps trying it should be aware of all the facts first.
And a good job they've done too biggrin


AAARRRGGGHHH!!! My giant stick broke!!! In two!!! My stick broke in two!!! ubbcrying

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:HOP has a balance with its text based fire breathing content, in that it covers the pros and the cons, it has info telliing the best way to do it and info about the things that go wrong with it.

With the visual stuff, IMO it's unbalanced- images of fire breathing make fire breathing look beautiful/spectacular, without conveying any of the negatives (the smell, toxicity, number of people killed/hurt etc).

Well done patrick for pointing out that preventing fire breathing photos on HOP is totally feasible (I'm not saying here that photos should be barred, simply that the option is far from unworkable).

Here's a different, but related, question- is there available on the net, a downloadable document that explains exactly what should be done in the event of a fire breathing injury?

So that if someone posts that they've just been damaged, they can be pointed to something telling them what to do.

It would also be useful for the document to have a section directed toward medical personel, as I've heard of cases where the hospital really didn't understand and sent the treated victim home only to have to do an emergency re-admit days later.

Lastly, it would be useful in the document was not just in one format (ie PDF), but in several (eg Word and a .txt version).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Personally, it's this site that made me reconsider fire breathing, after reading pele's story and the fact that even writing fire breathing creates a link to a warning.

Glad the warnings have extended into the gallery, although personally I already felt the mods and malcom were doing enough.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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PyroMonkey
PyroMonkey

b...bal...lence?....
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Member Since: 6th Jan 2005
Total posts: 370
Posted:Ok, i've only been fire twirling for a year, so it doesnt realy make me an expert. but even before i started i thought that fire breathing looked cool, i always knew there was a danger to it. when i got into the fire arts i thought i'd read up on some info about fire breathing, and the first thing i found was a million sites about ex-breathers saying don't do it. i was very glad that i found that first before the "how to's". if people who have done it as a proffesion say dont do it, that should be enough to stop thoses with half a brain. as for those who just give it a go with out thinking, grow a brain. when i was twirling at my friends party a week ago, some idiot decided it would be a good idea to have a go at fire breathing. the idiot couldn't understand why i was yelling at him soo much just for sudgesting it, let alone picking up my bottle of fuel. so there is one example of how ppl dont think.

so in my opinion, yes it looks cool, but the price to pay for it , in my mind, is way too much. but unfortunatly some ppl are stupid enough to do it without thinking. as for the glamorising of it, yes i aggree 100%, people give it way to much talking up about how "cool" it is without saying how dangerous it is.


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Kyle McLean
Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2003
Total posts: 364
Posted:Just wanted to say OWD's idea of a response sheet sounds excellent. Although I guess it could be a bit tricky to have somthing like that on HoP in terms of the legal issues. Are there ways through this? Disclaimers or such? If you had to get the info to a doctor ASAP how hard would it be?
*goes off to Durb the web*


Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:dictionary definitions and actual facts of said art form are two seperate things.



snork, did i ask you once to quote the definition? no! i asked you to give a valid reason for as to why fire breathing is cool from your point of view.





so all art forms that are contained on this site have relevancies of danger.

There is a good stilt walking danger thread lurking some where.

Unicycle threads with advice on safety in them.

So many threads and articles on the dangers of fire in general.

Fire breathing articles.

recently there have been talks in the fire performers forum about safety information on hop and how it can be made more available to people that come to hop.



already i feel that there is enough information located in the hop archives that just needs pointing to directly from the front page of hop with a catagorised list of the areas and arts that are discussed and participated in by members of this community.



I think that there should also be more contributions to bring older articles more up to date now that there are more newer members with more specialist information on ares of safety that havn't been written about before.



I think that if there was as discussed above a button in the galleries to notify admin and mods of dangerous content located in peopls galleries, there could be a team of members to set them selves a length of time to go through the galleries and submit the notifications so that it would make it simpler for the mods and admins to varify and remove and photos that shouldnt be there.



I would much rather view galleries with out seeing fire breathing and bring back memories of serious accidents to good friends and colleagues.

In my gallery is one fire breathing photo of myself, taken as a promotional shot back when i worked as a full time performer.

I would even be happy to remove this photo even though that i know the shot was taken under a controled situation and with safety materials and people on standby.





Another way i look at fire breathing, any one can do it, every one percieves it as being cool and a wow factor... this means that any one can try it with out even reviewing the dangers or tehniques, because they have done it once or twice think that they can get paid to do so as most promoters of clubs etc see fire breathing as the wow factor and will pay people to do it.

An idiot can fire breath

An idiot can get paid to fire breather

An idiot fire breather can get hurt

A clever person will research techniques

A clever person will research the dangers

A clever person will make the decision to fire breath based on his/her research.

Any clever fire breather will know that they will not risk their life just to earn some fast cash from doing some thing so dangerous that it risks their lives in the process.

Any clever fire breather can still get hurt.

Any clever fire breather will have posted their concerns and agree with all of the other performers here that are saying their feelings about the matter in hand and join us in the quest to make it more obvious of the dangers and the safety involved and creating a community based on safety and awareness in the most dangerous of these fire arts.



just a few more of my hard earned cents, and snork ... i wouldnt pay you a dime! you will have to settle for a hug. wink


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:generally i find fire breathing to be quite unimpressive mainly because its usually done really badly this guy however does it really well
http://www.pyromancer.nl/video/pyromancer_breathing.wmv
br>
personally i think hop does a really good job at providing people with information regarding technique and safety aspects, had it not been for the information on hop i would have learnt how to breath from friends. the best you can do is put the information out there so people can make informed decisions. performers or local spinners who breath are going to glamorise it much more than photos or video imho


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:thanks for that link ben... nice to see you back by the way!.

i actually met pyromancer in 2003, his techniques and performances are some thing to be impressed by from a performers point of view.
He is the guy in the bj2003 video that was on poiinthepark.net.
he has full safety gear right at hand and safety on watch.

but most of all you have to admire his character he plays in his acts!... never laughed so much at some one doing a fire show.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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