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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:
Okay, was reading the metro today, one of the articles was about a anti Cocaine drive within the middle classes, One of the main facts is that in colombia in the last couple of years, 5 000 or much more people have been killed in connection to coke. and it really made me think.

I have notised the spinning, raving, clubbing and young culture (and i can only comment on the uk) is very drug fuelled, but the same people promote, peace such as the strong out cry against the war in iraq, preservation of life such as veggies and vegans ie. if you look at the veggie arguement thread this holds some really strong political points of vies ie meat eaters being murderers etc!

Many people here boycot Mc donalds, Starbucks even Disney for their anti ethical behaviours.
But i have seen many of the same using some sort of stimulents ie coke etc.
Many people now see canabis as socially acceptable (my self included) but from what i have read about, people are practically inslaved in someplaces to cultivate it but yet we see this as okay?
The more i read the more it upsets me, children in afganistan used to traffic heroin. Babys stomaches filled with packets of narcs....:(

So if we really care about the world enough to protest against war animal cruelty, to boycot companys that polute the atmosphere, should we as a caring culture not boycot drugs mabie including canabis too?
soo many vunrable people in third world countrys, men-fathers, women- mothers kids-babys, are used and murdered by people that are driven by money and power, but yet we buy their goods and give them even more power and the same time we protest and boycot.

Do we choose to forget?

Thoughts?
frown


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Havokist
BRONZE Member since Dec 2004

Havokist


Location: Manchester, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2530
Posted:the way society sees things like that is in some ways different than individuals. quite a lot of people see it as "well as long as i'm not put in any danger then i don't really care"
but whats worse is that many governments abuse the power given to them and they just sit in their comfy offices, while they send men to their death

its quite sad really...


We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams;
We are the movers and shakers of the world for ever, it seems.

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:thats the thing many of the people here do care a really caring community, hmmmmm ive been thinking about this all day.. frown

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: brodieman




I have notised the spinning, raving, clubbing and young culture (and i can only comment on the uk) is very drug fuelled,





I think it's been established on several threads here that the worldwide spinning culture is most definately not drug fueled (despite past assumptions to the contrary).

In the UK there are also many spinners who don't take drugs, and the fact that many UK spinners do use them is probably more to do with the fact that it's become part of British culture to get mashed.

Written by: brodieman


So if we really care about the world enough to protest against war animal cruelty, to boycot companys that polute the atmosphere, should we as a caring culture not boycot drugs mabie including canabis too?
soo many vunrable people in third world countrys, men-fathers, women- mothers kids-babys, are used and murdered by people that are driven by money and power, but yet we buy their goods and give them even more power and the same time we protest and boycot.

Do we choose to forget?

Thoughts?
frown



Partly I think it's the fact that some of the people into those causes are in it, not purely for the moral aspects, but because of the lifestyle.

There's a set of views that many perceive to come as a set- drugs, dreads, peace protests etc.

I know a fair few peace protestors who, IMO, are in it primarily for the free parties.

(Note that I use the term some, not all).

Secondly of course, it's relatively easy to support a cause, in comparison to the the fundamental lifestyle change involved in getting drugs out of your life.

Then again, to support the other side of the coin, there's a limit to how many forms of injustice a person can battle against. Choices have to be made- some choose animal rights, world peace etc, and the drug issues are simply one of the ones they de-prioritise (or simply aren't aware there's an issue at all).

But you've raised a very good point and I suspect that there's many who will read it who may simply not have thought about the issues you mention; so it should provide food for thought.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_So_
BRONZE Member since Feb 2004

Skinny poi maker
Location: Moscow, Russia

Total posts: 313
Posted:
The thing is, it's a political matter. Because people in the countries or places, that provide the world with drugs, don't get any support from the governments. They don't have jobs, so they don't earn money for living - so what do they do? Going into any kind of illegal business is the only way to even get food. And we can boycot drugs, but that won't change the whole situation. Because if drugs won't be needed by people who used to take them, those mothers, fathers and childrean will find another upportunity to get payed. That can be anything - like robbing, killing and so on... Of course, I'm not saying, we should use drugs to support those people. Im just saying that we need to change other things in the life of our planet.
The main thing is that we need to choose - use - or not use just for ourselves. Because every person is to decide what's good for him/her, and what's bad.
Cannabis and psylocibyne have always been a part of life of humanity. But it's just now, in our present crasy time, the chemical and the nature- born drugs have become something huge and crasy.
I live in Russia - the situation here is like all over the world - ppl take pills or cocaine or what ever when they're in clubs, they smoke when they're at home... So... we just need to choose for ourselves... But the problem is, it won't change the situation we're discussing here...
Sadsadsad........


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by: Brodieman
So if we really care about the world enough to protest against war animal cruelty, to boycot companys that polute the atmosphere, should we as a caring culture not boycot drugs mabie including canabis too?





absolutely smile



You can't really be vegan and use many drugs, as you've no idea what they've been cut with etc


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myco
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

myco


Location: melbourne, victoria, australia

Total posts: 2084
Posted:Written by: brodieman

Babys stomaches filled with packets of narcs....:(

frown



that's such a horrible image.

i've never really known much about who's lives drugs affect before they are consumed, i've never really thought too much about it. this sort of information has never been presented to me and i've never sought it out. if people don't know about such things (and it suits them not to know about them) they have no reason to protest/boycott.


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:yes, I love the selectiveness and willful persistance of ignorance people have. violently protest some things and be completely thoughtless about the rest.

but then, we all have to pick our battles....

Basically everything brodieman said is a valid argument for the legalization of drugs if you ask me. Of course some of it is propaganda by the anti-drug factions, but not all of it.

There is also the consideration that 5000 people dead in columbia due to cocain is probably less than the number that died in that same country due to alchohol in the same period. Maybe not, but probably so - not like I really know.

Cannibis can easily be taken out of this cycle since one can grow it at home if the government would just let you. same with mushrooms (interestingly in the majority of the united states growing shrooms is even legal, you just can't buy sell or distribute them). you probably will wind up with preservatives and other additives in your pot if it is legalized though.

Herion and coke will likely always be a dirty trade though, perhaps because they are dirty drugs (in my opinion anyway). And while it is demostrateably false that herion and other drug traffic makes profits for terrorists organizations, drug lords are not nice people anyway, and they are more than happy to take advantage of the poor to gain cheap and disposable labor.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Gelfling
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

Gelfling

Watcher of 80s cartoons
Location: Chepstow & Bristol, United Kin...

Total posts: 665
Posted:This issue is one that I have felt strongly about for some time. And it goes much further - how many people who boycott companies such as Nestle smoke tobacco and drink alcoholic drinks? Surely the tobacco industry and alcohol industry are responsible for far more deaths than Nestle and yet how many people boycott British America Tobacco or Bass? Okay - I know of some people who boycott Bacardi since they still use slaves to harvest sugar cane but I've yet to meet a smoker who boycotts a tobacco company even though they will protest at a BP station etc. When asked why this is so the usual cop-out answer follows - "you can't be ethical with everything".

>What do you think about the state of the Earth?
>I'm optimistic.
>So why do you look so sad?
>I'm not sure that my optimism is justified.

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vonoom


vonoom

newbie
Location: Pompey, UK

Total posts: 10
Posted:I agree with pretty much everything written here. People are always ready to rally around a cause if it doesn't involve too much personal sacrifice. But nobody is perfect and we shouldn't bite off more than we can chew.
If you go down the chain of almost any large company, you will find a little guy who is being screwed over. It's the nature of the way our society is structured. I believe that this world will not become better place before society is restructured... i know. a bit cynical, but what else is one to think. Just the other day i read that marinebiologists (you're gona dig this stickman, just up your alley) have discovered that the acidity of the oceans is rising rapidly. They predict that within the next 35 years (if not sooner!) all the worlds coral reefs will be gone! As a scuba diver, that gives me serious concerns, not just for my vacation pleasures, mind you, but for the first links of the food chain. What effects will this have on the food chain? On the climate?
Sorry, i went off on a bit of a rant there, but i guess i've made my point.

My only tip is: Grow it and nobody's the worse smile


"Out here in the perimeter there are no stars... Out here we is stoned..."

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Yep, it's a difficult thing to live 100% ethically correct... if you're a vegan and eat only fair trade products and don't use drugs or nuclear powerplant-generated electricity maybe you've got a chance wink
The thing is to pick the things that are most important to you, because everyone has to make up for what he does with his own conscience first of all. The only thing that really pisses me off is when people think that their opinion is more right than somebody else's and try to convert people to eat differently, believe in another religion or when they put bombs under people's cars for being involved in abortion or animal testing. Cause everyone has his/her weak points and being a hypocrite while showing off one's (quite often only) strong point doesn't help anyone!
But it definitely helps to point out things like you did and ask about them, just to make people aware smile But I think it's a bit like with smoking, everyone knows it's bad, and everyone who uses coke or heroin knows it's a dodgy business making money of people who have no choice, on the producing and the addict side!


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Brodieman,



Firstly, I would suggest u should have a chat to the CIA (and the US Government) about the morals of cocaine and heroin trade.



Secondly, u said coke was big for middle classes. Maybe, u could point out that cocoa trees are now genetically modified against USA chemicals.



Thirdly, I don't think coke it is a particularly big rave drug in my country. If your intention is to point out exploitation, then you might have a greater impact if u focused on chocolate and coffee, instead of more synthetic type products.



I'd like 2 c your source on the "children in afganistan used to traffic heroin. Babys stomaches filled with packets of narcs..." point. This would be more likely to be cocaine into the US. Not sure that heroin is big on the rrave scene either. Or should I say not that recently ubbcrying



Oh! I think in many places, they grow their own wink







wink

EDITED_BY: Stone (1108472877)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:iirc the forementioned metro article from 14th feb said that 80% of the UK's coke comes from columbia



Written by:
Yep, it's a difficult thing to live 100% ethically correct... if you're a vegan and eat only fair trade products and don't use drugs or nuclear powerplant-generated electricity maybe you've got a chance





Not everything I can get fairtrade, and my landlord won't let me change power suppliers from bog standard powergen. I'm working on it smile


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: vanize

There is also the consideration that 5000 people dead in columbia due to cocain is probably less than the number that died in that same country due to alchohol in the same period. Maybe not, but probably so - not like I really know.



I read that as 5000 people died in the TRAFFICING of coke, not the use. If 5000 people in columbia died transporting alcohol they really need better truck drivers. wink

My similar pet peeve is people who smoke protesting large corporations. People who tell me to boycott Starbucks because large corporations are evil and yet they've got a Marlboro light hanging out of their lips.

Also the idea that any company with 3000 employees is worse than a company with two employees because it's more 'corporate' is annoying.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:Stone- the sources of information are in various places try drug information sites department of health, the anti coke drive is been driven by the brittish government at the moment, by showing some of the unethical practices that people traffic the drug into the country.
If you have never truley seen pictures of people in customs O.D.ing on split packets i would be very supprised, do yo read papers, try the Metro monday 15 of feb for a vague outline
This is not a atack on anyone or any group of people.

I also agree in the decriminalisation programme of many drugs as this does cut people that are willing to take advantage of desprate peeps. I am not saying all ravers/ spinners do drugs, how ever 80% of 15-25 year olds have (department of health) i want people to be aware that these practices do happen.

I think if i had made a anti macdonalds thread it would of probly got more support. frown


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:It would have... which is the interesting point you're raising.

If a news story broke that 6 people were gunned down in a basement who were forced to make McNuggets, it'd be all over the news. If a news story broke that 6 people were gunned down in a basement who were forced into smuggling coke people might just shrug it off...


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:this is the kind of question that makes me seem really pathetic - i knwo the issues you're on about, but the truth is i'm pretty much addicted to smoking, not at all to nestle and macdonalds.

the place my life is in at the moment it would take major upheaval to stop taking the drugs i do. Sad but true, i guess i'm too lazy in a way, and i bet i'm not the only one...


al i do is try to do what i can. Maybe i'm a cop out, but i do genuinely care about the causes i support, i'm just selctive i guess.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Tao Star


this is the kind of question that makes me seem really pathetic - i knwo the issues you're on about, but the truth is i'm pretty much addicted to smoking, not at all to nestle and macdonalds.





That's good; awareness that you're addicted puts you in a better position if you do decide to boycott tobacco companies (which obviously involves quitting).



Many of the millions currently smoking aren't even aware that they are addicted.



Neither will be the millions of the next generation of potential smokers targeted by tobacco companies as future users.



Like you say, we have to choose which organisations to boycott- but the tobacco industry whose product is responsible for more human deaths than all other drugs combined (and, in the US is the main avoidable cause of death); is well worth the effort.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I find this very interesting.

First of all, in response to Stone, the use of minors and the poor has actually been the topic of many media presentations, including on Discovery, History and other more reputable channels, as well as in the news lately. Some smugglers have even gone so far as to hide drugs in plastic surgeries (like breast implants). These growers and smugglers do use alot of employment methods we would concider exploitation.

HOWEVER, one of the things which recently brought this to the media attention is the growing prices of coffee. Many agriculturalists in Columbia are losing money on the growing of coffee beans and so are switching their crops to those of illegal drug base. They can then keep the same amount of help (thus keeping more people employed instead of firing them and leaving them to greater poverty) for the same pay and make more money. Many South American Nationals are actually *in favor* of this switch because it helps their economy, who it destroys after that is of no matter to them.

Also, coke is highly rated as a middle to upper class drug, due to the expense of it. That is something that has not changed since the 70's when it was obscenely popular in the club scene, and in fact it still is. Perhaps not the rave scene but most definately the large, high end club scene.

To _So_, that is not entirely true. When you remove one part of an economic support, something takes over. For example, the gov't in Columbia was figuring out a way to offer stipends to those farmers who would continue to grow coffee.
*Several* (read a couple of decades) ago when a frost killed many of the olive plantations in Greece the economy plummetted (sp?). My relative there found a way to use the plantation for tourists, and to make wine until the olives thrived again. It takes adaptability. It may take awhile, but it does work out. We have to keep in mind that in many of these countries it is not illegal to grow the plants, it is illegal to process them as narcotics and/or sell them to other countries. There is a big difference there.

Now, about the McDonald's thing. The sad part is, alot of people are addicted to it. It does destroy a body. So do many of the vices in out lives. Watch the movie "Super Size Me" and you will fast learn how a diet of McDonalds or Baskin Robbins can destroy a body, just as much as drugs, alcohol and tobacco do. And you are totally right. It is a sad, sad thing to see that they are left unchecked.

I think many of the "non-dirty" (nice usage, btw) drugs should be legalized. At least then my tax money won't be going to the "War on Drugs" to fight what seems like a losing battle.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:niceley put pele smile

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hey, if ya want to get on your soap box then get ya facts right for a start. Like, if you want to talk about cocaine in middle class USA and the problems it causes fine. But hey, don't implicate the whole spinning, raving and clubbing culture.



Personally, I'm getting a little weary of people telling me what is ethically correct. Especially, when people start using factitious arguments, distort the truth and used emotional blackmail as the animal libbers often do (see vegetarian discussions). And if you can quote and example and not know the source then somethings wrong.



Pele other countries grow chocolate and coffee.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1108510533)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: Stone

Hey, if ya want to get on your soap box then get ya facts right for a start. Like, if you want to talk about cocaine in middle class USA and the problems it causes fine. But hey, don't implicate the whole spinning, raving and clubbing culture.

Personally, I'm getting a little weary of people telling me what is ethically correct. Especially, when people start using factitious arguments, distort the truth and used emotional blackmail as the animal libbers often do (see vegetarian discussions). And if you can quote and example and not know the source then somethings wrong.

Pele other countries grow chocolate and coffee.




First of all, who are you addressing here Stone?

I did cite sources. Each of those stations did shows on this topic.
USA Today ran the story about the Coffee vs. Cocaine at least a month ago, as did many other periodicals. Do a search for yourself. It is what I did when I became interested in it after seeing it on the television.

Yes other places do grow coffee (and why is chocolate being brought up, I didn't mention it), but not to the supply that Columbia provides for the US, which is why it is anticipated the costs here in the U.S. will go up. Before *you* start speaking about the policies in other countries, perhaps you should learn them first.

Secondly, it *is* common knowledge that upper class and middle class clubbing in the US and cocaine tend to go hand in hand. No one has said everyone participates in it. In fact, I said *not* the rave scene, and I made the comment focussed on the U.S. specifically. Since you seem to be located in Melbourne, I am guessing that you do not know so much about US history in the 70's.

You are the one who mentioned the U.S. CIA (which btw, doesn't do a whole lot with drugs in the U.S. We have the DEA for that). Perhaps if you commented on Australia's dealings this conversation would go more smoothely for you.

No one in this thread has told you what to think or feel. There is *no* reason to be so defensive.

However, several extremely interesting points have been brought up, all of which can be backed by doing a search.

I think the topic is fascinating, and really good...and reminds me very much of the ones in the past where we talked about the (possible) hypocracy of eco-warrior people spinning fire and flinging fuel and fumes every where.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MillenniuM
PLATINUM Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck
Location: , USA

Total posts: 595
Posted:My two cents: Cokeheads aren't usually rights activists. Make you're just using this as an example, but it isn't the best example to use.

Written by:
(interestingly in the majority of the united states growing shrooms is even legal, you just can't buy sell or distribute them)



That's not actually true; it is legal to purchase spores, but not grow and consume them.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Pele, the response was to the previous post. There used to be a feature to indicate this. So, the source question was relating to kids smuggling heroin in Afghanistan, which as I said earlier, I thought would have been more likely to be coke into the US.

So, the USA Today ran the story about the Coffee vs. Cocaine. It might be a surprise, but many other countries grow coffee. Shock not everything revolves around the USA.

In those other countries the people who produce coffee and chocolate (mentioned previously) are as exploited as the cocaine runners. I would suggest that as coffee and chocolate are consumed in larger quantise, World Wide, compared to cocaine then then this is perhaps more relevant.

I would also suggest the world price of coffee went up for other reasons besides US subsidies. Besides, how much is the US subsidising this folly, compared the billions they already waste by propping up an inefficient agricultureal system in the US. I would seem that the only reason Bush is planning to cut agricultural subsidies in the US is because of the cost of the war in Iraq.

If as you say, it is common knowledge that upper class and middle class clubbing in the US and cocaine tend to go hand in hand, then why is all this been directed at spinners and jugglers?

The US history and CIA involvement in heroin and cocaine trafficking, arms deals etc is well documented from the 60s onwards, umm Contra.

The self-righteous tend to lump all drugs into one bag, conveniently forgetting alcohol and cigarettes, and start screaming that drugs are bad. So. what really annoys me is that you are discussing the ethical use of the wrong drugs, as in coke and heroin. Do you think heroin and crack addicts have any regard of ethical considerations? ???? Perhaps, the discussing the ethics of say meth production in Cambodia is more relevant.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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bairie fen


lord high king of swingers *(now defunct)**(but will rise again ! !)*
Location: wild wiltshire

Total posts: 165
Posted:I started to think about this issue several years ago, when some friends of mine went on a jolly we can do what we like holiday to brazil, with the intention of importing quite a large amount of coke back to the uk, they were told one thing and ended up having to personally carry the load back through heathrow, they got paid a pitifull amount of money which was in no way relative to the risk they were taking. and at the end of it all they spunked it all on drugs and alcohol. two of the girls were smart and realised how close they had come to being murdered or arreseted and swore never to do it again, the third now languishes in a sao paulo jail with no hope of imminenet release.
This made me think about all of the above drug issues and since then I have sorced my drugs from as ethical places as possible, and this has actually impacted on my drug consumption as if i'm not sure then i don't take em.
I reckon the responsibility lies with the individual, if you dont like the possible affects of what your doing then dont do them, if your comfortable with what your up to then by all means carry on, but always have a look, do some research and see what maybe a little more of the story is. remebering that even amsterdam lsd, mdma and ecstacy manufacturers aren't usually the nicest of people infact they even kill people sometimes because "they have too", your choice of path.
no one would tell me when my friends went off on there holiday, as they knew i would hit the roof and do my best to stop them, mostly because the last thing i wanted was them removed from my life, on theyre return i was told got the schiznits with them, talked to alot of people who said "ohh it's terrible how stupid of them" and then watched these people take drugs and alcohol from the profits of that journey.
as i say i reckon responsibility lies with the individual.
peace and love xxx
p.s drugs and juggling feel great together but do not make for a better juggler\spinner in my humble opinion, unless its bongs of course !


fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:*taking a deep breath*

Stone,

First of all, you are repeating yourself. I said I was talking about the U.S. position, not that the world revolves around the U.S. I also clearly mentioned that much of the U.S. coffee is produced from Columbia, which is why the prices are rising here. I was not focussing at all on any place else. You wanted an example and I gave one, yet you still scoff at it? In other words, you are looking for an arguement, and you know what? I am not going to give you one. I have shared what I know and what I have learned. I also know my country, it's current policies on the issue at hand and do not need someone who is not here attempting to correct me. No one *ever* said that the world revolves around the U.S. but I am not so arrogant as to think I can comment on what the policies are in a country I do not reside in.

This thread is about drugs, not growing food.
It is about the possibility of a double standard within the realms of many people who are users, and yet are activistic in the realms of "protection of the weak" and "eco-friendliness".

Do I think there is a double standard? Absolutely. But I also think OWD is correct in that it is more about the lifestyle rather than the political standings of it.

I think if a person is socially concientious enough to "preach" or make it a lifestyle, then it should be all encompassing. I say that only because I am an all or nothing type person in many ways.

When I asked a friend of mine who partakes whenever she can, her answer was that she had never thought about it. I think this is true for many, sadly.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Pele, I thought the discussion was about the ethics of drug consumption in relation to how those compounds are produced and distributed. I brought the up the examples of coffee and chocolate (both stimulants btw) to get away from the well-worn cocaine and heroin debates. Because there are more relevant examples. You moved the coffee debate to the US, not me. As is often the case. Then u then focused on coke importation into the US.

You said the thread is about drugs, not growing food. Which is similar to the point I was trying to make. However, before we get to that. Heroin, cocaine and cannabis are produced from plants that (as you pointed out) sometimes compete with food crops. The point I was making is that synthetics and semi-synthetic drugs are produced in laboratories. The giant Mitsubishi had a problem with ethics of drug manufactures using it's logo on a particular drug. This was in part resolved, when Mitsubishi was able to sue that manufacturer. Another example would be the use of animals to test batches of particular drugs.

If you don't think its political, and we will ignore the CIA and DEA for a moment, then why did a North Korea government backed ship dump tons of heroin along the eastern sea board of Australia?

Has a deep sigh


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Bram


member
Location: Vansterdam, playing with my Bu...

Total posts: 28
Posted:I am of the opinion that cocaine and extracts, opium and extracts, methamphetamines and other synthetically produced drugs are the devil. I think that the fact that people are enslaved in South America, Africa, and the United States to grow cannabis, but I do not think of cannabis as a bad thing. I myself, am a licensed medical cannabis gardener. My designater suffers from depression, extreme obesity, and arthritis. By utilizing a couple of specific cultivars of Cannabis sativa, Cannabis sativa indica, and hybrids of both the indica and sativa; we are able to combat the depression, alleviate the pain from arthritis, and amazingly even promote healthy weight loss. One of the main arguments that has been made to me on the subject of legalization by people who use is that the price will go down and no one will make tons of money like they used to, this IS a myth. The average price of Cannbis is Holland is 5-9 euros a gram depending on quality. In Canada where I live, this is actually more expensive then our blackmarket prices of $10 a gr. ( 1 euro is worth approx. $2.50 can) Also legalization allows cannabis that is already being smuggled out of/into countrys can be taxed thus creating further revenue. Ethically. I believe that if someone cannot support a habit on thier own then they should not use that substance whether it is cannabis, alcohol, cocaine, etc. Just my .2 cents.

Its 4:19, do you know where your lighter is?

Never trust someone who says never trust a hippy!!!

When you do business with a Christian, get it in writing.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:I reject the claim that environmental and/or social change activists are frequent (or even statistically relevant) users of cocaine or heroin. therefore the whole argument falls over.



I think Fairie Ben makes a good point; the softer drugs are often produced by not so nice ppl (organised crime). However I think comparing say LSD producers with Coke producers seems to be drawing a very long bow in terms of the social damage done to that society. (I think very very few ppl have been killed by LSD producers, many thousands have died in the wars on the coke cartels).









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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:Sorry stone the point i was trying o make was to point out the double standard frown if i worded it in a manor that was not clear i apolgise, please dont be defencive, but can you not see my point, i nor any one that is here is atacking you.
keep it friendly man.
Oh and the baby insident was in a documentary on sky a few years ago, my girl friend remembers it sorry i dont have the exact show and date.

The double standard was including my self, i simpally wanted to share what i was feeling.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:No, you had a fair point Brodieman, and you are right it does make you think. I sure I had a point too, just couldn';t get it out so it was legible, and now I'm not sure what it was ubbloco I suppose I just get a bit lost in this whole ethics debate.


peace

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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