ALIBABA
member
Location: ambleside
Member Since: 17th Dec 2000
Total posts: 52
Posted:here goes nothing.this is not going to impress anyone i know but first let me explain.whilst doing a small street performance with fire stuff another street performer came up and started doing some magic and balloon art and basically stole the small crowd we had. at this time i was hugely into poi(and still am in a certain way). he mentioned later that he was one of the founder members of the L.A.P. and semi explained it to me and i found it quite funny but vaguely insulting. the LAP are all jugglers who believe that poi is the most useless of all things basically. (malcom you will know who i am talking about as they ocasionaly steal things from this site)(i really hope you know that or i will look dead stupid). the reasons that i heard for this is that any good juggler could learn all the tricks in a day and that you cant let go off poi so where is the fun (on of my friends has disproved this by being able to lob a poi in the air and then catch it and continue twirling). i WAS fully indignant at the time and again am still to a certain extent now. but today i noticed something whilst watching some of the videos. take away the person. if you do that then a lot of what we do is the same. backwards weave, forwards weave, overthe head weave, behind the back weave all looks the same (basically) if you take away the person. i am sort of annoyed at myself for writing this but then i still love doing poi for myself as i enjoy the movement of it and the noise and the feelings but i did wonder how many people had heard of this group of people who were against what we do and have probably never tried it.club juggling to a certain extent is the same, how hard can it be till you try it, how good is a juggler till you juggle yourself and some of the most impressive stuff in daylight(behind the back and under the leg) cant be seen in the dark.think before you poi.aliiiiiiiiiips. i hope i have not insulted anyone with this, it just struck me as interesting.pps. L.A.P. http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/lap/lap.htm


ALIBABACHICKENMANICANSEEYOURUNDERWEAR

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Superman
Superman

member
Location: Houston, Texas
Member Since: 13th Mar 2001
Total posts: 829
Posted:for any group of people there will be a group of haters...typical for the world today.to each his own yo...------------------"Only the warrior that hears the call will know when to leave, Where to go" -unknown

Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear.


- Mark Twain

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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:How utterly sad. We used to have a Monday night get-together of jugglers and fire-twirlers, but the guy who organized it left town and the place where we did it closed. Obviously not all jugglers are anti-poi.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Chloe
member
Location: Kent - UK
Member Since: 17th Dec 2000
Total posts: 54
Posted:Hi Alibaba.I do sometimes get disallusioned with poi, but that is mainly with my ability and nothing else. Every talent and skill has a general average, the stage that most of the people who do it are at, thus it appears that there are alot of people doing similar poi moves without much variations.Howver, with poi, like all other talent/skill, you have the ability to excell above the average, to not only teach yourself the moves but develop your own style, and develop it well. Personally, this is where i see the difference between being an average poi dancer and being a good one. I have seen good jugglers and i have seen excellent jugglers, just as i have poi swingers, the difference is how much of themselves someone puts into it. The most amazing poi swinger i ever saw was at a free party in Rochester, and he had me speechless. He was very fluid, and natural, and i could tell that he really enjoyed it. If you enjoy what you do, then it is going to show, and anyone who wathces you will enjoy it. I think that watching someone with a talent they enjoy is irresistable, no matter whether i personally like the talent/skill.I think any die hard LAP's regardless as how good the poi-er is, are irrational, and stupid. they'll be the ones missing out, becasue they won't be able to appreacite any show that involves poi. The most important thing is to be able to regognise someone with talent, who enjoys it, when you see them, and to appreaciate the fact they enjoy thier talent, and not so much what that talent is.Chloe.

Chloe.
-I'm dancing through the fire just to catch a flame-
Paul Weller

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Malcolm
Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP
Member Since: 18th Nov 2003
Total posts: 997
Posted:I think LAP was pissed off because when they first visited www.juggling.co.nz they expected to see juggling as the URL implies. But they saw something different
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.I am a long time juggler but mainly a seeker of challenges. I bought the URL a year before I knew what I was going to do with it. I appreciate all the performance arts
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. I saw there was a need for a site like this and as I am very passionate about poi (and now staff) I started the site.Unfortunately not everyone can think outside of the square. Some put down others who are different. Some people make comments without walking in someone elses shoes. Some people are experts and some know that of what there is to know, that they know very little. Some people are explorers, some are not. Some people love to love, some love to hate. There will always be a dark side (Starwars)I don't know if the above will make sense but it does to me.RegardsMalcolm


"May your balls always burn"

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gάrbǿ
gάrbǿ

addict
Location: Bristol / London / Norwich / C...
Member Since: 9th Jan 2001
Total posts: 521
Posted:Its there problem. If what they were saying was a common view (which it isn't) then there are enough of us here to have a good time etc. Stick together people. We can't afford to seperate cause there are so many narrow minded ignorant people out there.do i get a second on that.peace outgarbo
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be excellent to each other: safe:

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ShawnF
member
Location: Springfield, MA - USA
Member Since: 16th Dec 2000
Total posts: 162
Posted:I remember when this was first brought up a while ago... I seem to remember the original LAP person taking the site down saying it was just a joke to begin with and people were taking it too seriously... but I guess it continues.I had written a response to it on rec.juggling and also posted it to the old HoP message board. If anyone is curious, you can read it here:http://www.juggling.org/bin/news2html/39E50F7B.838302A8@hello.comReading it again, it seems kind of long-winded now, and some stuff I'd put differently, but you get the gist of it. I still haven't heard of people doing all of the things in there, so take a looksie if you want more ideas...
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TaiGuy
member
Location: Yorktown, VA, USA
Member Since: 10th Feb 2001
Total posts: 127
Posted:Eish... I dont see what they have against it.Poi doesn't *just* have to be limited to circles. Granted that the windmill, weaves, and what not do follow a circular path but aren't the only trick to be done. I particularly find James Lac's glowstix video quite proving in my point. Sure he does weaves, but his little "jump-over-the-glowstix" trick is phat, and the wraps sure add lots to the fray. The entire butterfly family defies the "circles only" theory, since yes they aren traveling in circles, but in different directions, which makes it look quite different.------------------"Happiness is not a destination, but a method for life"- Burton Hills

The reason communism doesn't work is because people like to own stuff

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Posted:Hmm...I totally agree Malcolm, and I fully get what you are saying...perhaps I can add another level to it...There are those who can only find their own worth by devaluing all others around them. I personally reckon a lot of Jugglers get pissed off, cuz Poi'ing wows the crowd more.And Ali, you cant take the person out of the Poi'ing. does it matter what it would look like if you did? I dont know about you, but for me its all about the synching of body movement / contortion to the movement of the Poi, to the movment of the sound (of Music - if you are lucky enough).just cuz a lot of the poi movements involve the Poi spinning in the same planes doesnt detract from the skill dude! Take Tennis for example, its just about the person moving in relation to the court and interacting with the ball. simple equation. take gymnastics...even simpler equation. take the person from the floor routine what do you got? a floor.This sounds just like the same crap attitude some skate (board)rs have to inline skates. They are shit cuz a really good skater can be a decent inline skater with a little bit of practice. and the skates are attached, thats just making up for a lack of skill. What a load of elitist fuckin crap. these Skaters are looking for a way to put down the ppl that they have to share their beloved ramps with.This crap comes out in all facets of life. Take Linux lovers. A lot of LLs I know openly insult the intelligence of anyone who would choose any other OS over Linux.Surfers and Body Boarders and Wave Sailers all have the same shit gripes with each other.And what about Skiiers and Snowboarders!!?As any decent twirler will tell you, there is a lot more to twirling than just knowing all the advanced moves.If any of these uppitty LAP'ers started telling me how shit Poi was, I'd get really hard on em, cuz they have no right to rag on something they dont understand, especially since its so special to me. I feel sorry for them that they have chosen a pasttime that hasnt led them to any kind of spiritual understanding (not that everyone gets that out of poi'ing but anyhow).urgh.Josh

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Bish_the_Ding
member
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Member Since: 1st Jan 2001
Total posts: 52
Posted:There are a lot of things I cannot put into words, I guess I'm a bit closed off (my parents were Germans) but with Poi I can express myself, I can *SHOW* people what my process is like. I can scoop them up and whirl them to another place where everyone speaks BISH and for a few fast minutes ... they're mine ...If the (expletive deleted) best these guys can come up with is that poi are just things going round and round, please tell me how things going up and down are any better ...I've seen some hot shit, juggling wise, I couldn't do it and at the same time I couldn't be bothered to *learn* how to do it - I'm just quite happy to be impressed. I'm tolerant of their skill and I appreciate it, but right now I can pull more moves with poi alone than a juggler can with balls/hoops/clubs/yawn, etc.I love my craft because it breaks down like this, for me, 33% skill/confidence, 33% audience involvement/attention, and 33% pure JOY from my side...I find it disturbing that jugglers would want to disassociate themselves from us. Why compete when you can compliment ? Our worlds aren't *that* far apart are they?Perhaps we should not guage ourselves by the friends we keep but rather by the adversaries we make. Nietsche said: "That which does not kill us makes us harder"Again I quote The Borg:"Humans ... we used to be EXACTLY like you. Flawed - *weak* - organic. We evolved to include the synthetic ... now we use *both* to attain perfection. *Your* goals should be the same as ours ... "I think these jugglers should just get over their insecurities and realize we're riding the same wave ...If you really do find your performance is lacking (check on video first), there are masses of simple tricks to enhance your show:Wrists and ankles move a lot while you're twirling:- exploit this !Wear white socks and roll up your pants. Wear white gloves. Light up your performance area ! A performance thats 80% poi, 20% body won't look nearly as good as a 50-50% !Watch Ricky Martin videos. Shake that ass ! Trust me, no-ones gonna say "hey, you look like a clown..." with flaming poi whirling precisely around your body.This could be your last chance ! Dance like you do when nobodies watching (I can only do 4 of 5)!!"self immolation ! go, baby, go !"Bish

Hasst du etwas zeit fuer mich?... Dan singe ich ein lied fuer dich ... -Bjork/Nena

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Fire Punk
member
Location: Reno, NV, USA
Member Since: 4th Jan 2001
Total posts: 18
Posted:Some of the people that helped start my fire group and are in it juggle. They don't mind us fire poi peoples, in fact, a few of them do poi as well. Instead of limiting themselves with hate, they have expanded themselves and have a knowledge of juggling and poi. )^( Fire Punk

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ALIBABA
member
Location: ambleside
Member Since: 17th Dec 2000
Total posts: 52
Posted:let me see.the LAP site is not serious and says so at the top but there is definitely certain people i have met who have some sort of problem with it. mind you i never want to start scarf juggling.whoever mentioned all the conflicts i think you may find that the skater/in-liner conflicts are not always true and keep themselves to the inner cities and it also seems more prominent the further south you go. snowboard/skier conflicts are dying from what i've seen. again confining themselves to the slopes of the uk. i first snowboarded about 13 years ago in france when people in the uk had pretty much not heard of it and it seems that yet again (real)europe is 10 years ahead of the game.thank you though for the comments, i guess i really just wanted to see what others thought about poi and how poipeople are seen. it may also warn people that not everyone is going "wow, look at that"i guess i'll have to go and learn some more moves.thank you aliiiiii

ALIBABACHICKENMANICANSEEYOURUNDERWEAR

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Rain
member
Location: Melbourne,Vic. Aust.
Member Since: 14th Dec 2000
Total posts: 69
Posted:i love juggling. i got into poi through my interest in circus arts. i also love poi.Alibaba, in regards to the dude who stole your audience thats a pretty poor effort it shows a blatent disrespect for not only toward poiers(his obvios intention) but also the same disrespect for all performes. the fact that they stole an audience from another proformer is inexcuseable for what ever reason. in reguards to the website i was very amused i found it hard not to laugh. although it was was slightly offending i was not personaly offended as i did take it as a joke. i found how ever that i didnt ony find the contents of the website funny i found funnier the fact that someone would take the time to create such a page to share with the world when (no offence) i dont really think that anyone cares. in saying that i might be wrong, being a juggler that really enjoys poi and has had nothing but positive responces from people who have watched me i may be bias. oh well. if the creator of the LAP webpage happens to read this thanks for the laughs.

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o-o
member
Location: london, england
Member Since: 22nd Dec 2000
Total posts: 78
Posted:i too juggle and poi. i don't juggle so much anymore since i got stood up horribly by some dude in a charlie chaplin outfit.i prefer the poi for performance because people imho generally haven't seen as much of it as they have of juggling, and personally i find more interpretation in poi because shock horror it is imho easier (technically speaking) than juggling so i find i can use the body more to convey the performance and my enjoyment thereof to the audience. wouldn't go slag jugglers though coz the worst kind of heckle is from someone who also performs and heckles out of malice and not ignorance/good fun like the typical heckler. whatever. i think matt hippy put it nicely in the 'follow your own path thread'cheerso-o

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sammie
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 56
Posted:Frankly, I reckon what ever takes your fancy goes, so long as you are doing that 'art' (poi/juggling/staff/sk8/unicycle/magic/etc..) for the love of doing it and wanting to share with others, and not for showing off.(fine line between the two!)As for stealing crowds is not only selfish but also down right rude...........
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LAP seems like an awful lot of effort for a whole lot of nothing - and to be 'against' something is a strong emotion for people who probably have never done poi in their lives. So what if poi is not for you, think its copying juggling and decided hooplahooping is your way of life? Why put effort into a society against something that people enjoy (i bet someone will come up with something bizzaree here!!), hows about campaigning against something a bit more important (multinationals, government issues, peace, soft toilet paper?!)Perhaps a bit of unity and peace in the circus arts/performing world might help us meet more people though clubs (no pun intended) and conventions, rather than taking an immediate dislike to them just because u saw them doing poi.You never know, we might all end up balloon artists one day.Sammie.


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Spiral
Spiral

Oolering Man
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Member Since: 12th Jan 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:two sides to every story, but I do pity the man that gets enjoyment at taking the piss out of others. its a bit sad in my mind.------------------Trance the sacred spiral dance.Love and LightSpiral

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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:yo, i think its kinda funny....------------------Do You ever Question Your life? Do You ever wonder Why? Do you ever see in Your dreams, All the castles in the Sky??

Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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jonathan
enthusiast
Location: new zealand
Member Since: 24th Nov 2001
Total posts: 210
Posted:you could always tie your poi together, light them get a one handed butterfly going and throw it at the offending party, if you do that properly they'll wrap round boala style and no doubt cause considerable amusement. poi may be fun, but they are not toys, and if someone can learn how to juggle in one day then the two cant really be compared. sure they only go round and round, but thats what they were designed to do, i have a pet theory that its all about internal energy (ki or chi) amplification, the maori were pretty big on that sort of thing (and killing other maori!!)having said that i can do two one handed butterflies, but have never been able to get the hang of juggling!

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strmseekr
member

Member Since: 18th Apr 2001
Total posts: 6
Posted:That's rather amusing, but interesting, too. I agree completely that poi is based on one move (one motion, actually)- the circular motion of one poi moving back and forth between two planes (as in the figure 8, the fwd/rev weave, the windmill (or Rings of Saturn), the corkscrew, behind-the-back weaves, and even in some ways the butterfly.And that is exactly what makes poi so eloquent. That there is one motion that is the heart of the whole art.I am a contact juggler as well, and I have to admit, it did seem much easier to master poi than it is to learn cjing. I'm starting to think, though, that it's just because cj is unusually difficult, not because poi is unusually easy- I'm trying to learn staff as well, and staff is coming to me just as fast as poi did.

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jonathan
enthusiast
Location: new zealand
Member Since: 24th Nov 2001
Total posts: 210
Posted:i hate to sound up myself strmseekr but ive never seen any one do the stuff ive taught myself how to do with two onehanded butterflies, the most ive seen anyone including my pyro friends and culture groups on t.v. is just stand there swinging them (which took me about a year to get the hang of and im always impressed to see it done). the maori had their own system of martial arts and bear that in mind when you do the poi, they may be easy to pick up and swing about, but how well do we actually know how to use them? (i reckon im sort of skimming the surface of a big pool of knowledge waiting to be tapped into)it could be a case of a minute to learn and a lifetime to master. because once you can spin four poi well and play around with them, then you have to (well only if youre a nutjob like me) be able to use them with enough control in a gentle sparring situation (say against a staff or taiaha) to not hit anyone.and that is real hard, six years ive been doing poi (martial arts for 16) and im only getting to the stage of contemplating having a gentle spar with my friends with 4 poi (wooden ones).i found that lap page an absolute riot, had me cracking up for ages. with poi i reckon its how you move your body (esp your feet) and if that dosent get done o.k. then things wont work, this is especially true for weapons useage. i would like to be able to say something about contact juggling, or any sort of juggling, but better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt. i just dont know anything about juggling, what sort of body motions have to be done?, is it important to move your feet in any particular way?i would hazard a guess (correct me if im wrong) that juggling is a bit more sedentary than poi, perhaps the hand patterns you use when juggling dont require as much control over your body to pull off as some poi moves?can anyone shed some light on this for me?

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byron76
member
Location: Blacksburg, VA, USA
Member Since: 3rd Dec 2001
Total posts: 11
Posted:Wow, my step-dad handed me three apples last night and taught me to juggle. I had never seriously tried to juggle before, dont get me wrong, I didnt master it in less than a day but Im juggling (I also have applesauce). It took me about the same time to learn to spin poi (basic moves w/bruises). In my humble opinion the two skills share many parallels such as timing and the location in space of what you are throwing /spinning. I foresee many fun filled hours of juggling, what I do not see is how there can be such friction between the two types of performers, some people are just too wrapped up in what they are doing, or maybe they are just rude, or jealous or feel that criticizing others brings validity to themselves. Personally, I think there are too many people suffering in the world to spend time bashing folks who are trying to perform a beautiful act for others to see, poi are beautiful, one of the most beautiful forms of self expression I have been able to actualize. I just made three kevlar balls,ive got these great heat resistent gloves---something for the jugglers you know

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Teine
member
Location: Asheville, NC
Member Since: 18th Nov 2001
Total posts: 74
Posted:i understand the point made by "take the person out of it"...some of the moves look the same if you put your thumb over the spinner. however, as has been mentioned by others, there is more to it than visual.to the jugglers: that stuff's amazing. i can't get more than 2 balls going without dropping the whole mess...and watching someone juggle 5 [running] chainsaws was quite impressive. better than i can do.to the spinners: sure, juggling is very difficult and talented, but when you're learning, you are in very little risk. how many jugglers have you heard of injuring themselves trying to learn a new trick? (being safe about it.) now: how many poi-ers and staff spinners have NOT injured themselves learning a new trick, or just learning how to spin in the first place? i've learned more first aid and safety here in 3 months than i've ever learned before (in that amount of time)! sure, it's tricky to keep multiple objects up in the air at the same time, but how many people can keep multiple objects flying around themselves at high velocity and manage to constantly stay out of the way while keeping it entertaining?
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just my 2 cents worth.
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------------------"life begins between the night and the light."


life begins between the night and the light.

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Neeko
member
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Member Since: 17th Aug 2001
Total posts: 68
Posted:I am a spinner, juggler, and dabble in some other circus arts. I think it is as important to take your artforms seriously and constantly progress with them as it is to remember to have fun and also be able to laugh at yourself. Ergo, I thought the website was pretty funny myself.

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Tom
Tom

member
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Sep 2001
Total posts: 135
Posted:Me and some friends friends at uni practice with the Juggle Society. What some of them do is amazing, i think letting go of stuff and then catching it (along with a handful of other things) is impressive, ie I'm crap at it! We've never had any negative feelings from them, why compare different things? It's like comparing different genres of music, pointless cos its based on personnal preference.But anyway, we've got this One World Week thing coming up and each society gets to perform in the Student Union at an event, Juggle Soc asked me and my friends to do poi for their set! Stange heh.. oh well off to practice now..

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psychomonkey
member
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Member Since: 14th Dec 2000
Total posts: 148
Posted:hey hey, im still here. I seem to recall posting something on the old board about this. I was rather senselessly angry, check the replies to my post, they make sense.-PSM

One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind.-Alphonse Bertillon

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:weird shit happens...last summers I found myself on a 5 hour minibus journey with luke burrage (the guy who did the LAP site) along with 10 of my favorite staff and poi swingers. he he.the up shot is, that basically he's alright, but he has what you might call an abrasive sense of humour. Crickey. you should hear what he had to write about anthony gato, world famous numbers juggling dude. I neglected to mention to him that i had been the one who had first posted about the LAP on HOP and caused him the agro.(smug mode).Anyway. in september I met someone who really didn't like poi a genuine LAPer. would have made me angry if i didn't think he was a prat. Every other juggler I've met is really cool about poi.happy swinging.Glass_____________________Runs with scissors,walks on the grass andtippy toes through the valley of death

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