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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Ive been working to categorize all types of flowers in an attempt to find more. I believe Ive finally finished and have discovered many new ones (to me) along the way. Decided to share what Ive got in an attempt to both educate those who may not be aware of some of them as well as get info on any I may be missing. Heres the breakdown...

There are 4 categories of flowers:
-Basic flowers
-Counter flowers
-Goofy flowers
-Half flowers

Basic flowers are the simplest and usually the first ones people learn. They're just your average flower where the poi and arms are both rotating in the same directional pattern (ie, poi are spinning forward chase/arms are spinning forward chase; and poi are spinning forward butterfly/arms are spinning forward butterfly)

Counter flowers are what Ive been calling anti-spin flowers before all the anti-spin jargon started. You can call them what you want, but in this case, they're counter flowers smile They're the ones where your arms rotate opposite (or counter) the direction your poi are spinning (ie your poi are rotating forward chase/your arms are rotating reverse chase; and your poi are rotating forward butterfly while your arms are rotating reverse butterfly)

Goofy is the term Ive come up with to describe flowers where your arms are doing the wrong directional pattern for the way the poi are spinning (ie your poi are doing butterfly but your arms are rotating chase, and vice verce). This forces one poi to always be doing counter spin while the other always does normal.

Half flowers are where your arms only complete half a rotation before going back the way they came forcing the poi to do normal spin one way, then counter spin on the way back.

All of these can be done as a chase or as a butterfly, in split or same time. Its also great to be able to turn all of these 360 and some of them are actually easier that way.

Anyway, gimme some feedback, especially if you have some flower ideas I havent yet thought of.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:Damn it, you've made me run out of the comp sci lab I'm in at the moment and try to figure this out wink .



Yes, that description does seem like a btb weave turn with lockouts but I have managed to figure out a non-turning version where the 6 oclock point is btb and the 3 and 9 oclock points are behind the arms but it feels really messy. I think its the way I go into it that got me confused as I go into the lockout sequence in the same way that I go into a flower.



I'll try and get both variants on tape as soon as I can . ubbangel


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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alphalight
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

alphalight

member
Location: south germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:behind the back flowers check in the vid here http://www.poiforum.de/wbb2/thread.php?postid=3674#post3674
u can even turn and keeping them behind

and do u play ur flowers on two crossoverpoints infront of u or on one i mean more in a triangle form ?
die someone write something about the hybrid flowers like one big circle other one in quarter time 4 point flower etc ?



bis bald

peace light and paris juggling convention end of may

aphehe


peace and light

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:okay, I watched the vid, and still don't see the btb flowers you're talking about. Isn't the point that they're long arm moves, that can be done facing only one direction? I still hold this, that even though you can turn flowers, a base qualifier is that they are able to be done facing one plane?

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Imagine flower like two flowers togeter. There are two

positions of hands. Sharing the same plane,

this is compound flower actually,

or both in differend plane.



Than transition, turn, is possible with both. When they

share same plane, than transition is reel.

When both are in diffrent plane,

transition is Figure 8.



love and light,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:i'm confused...so would you call a giant butterfly with lockouts a flower?

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Of course, the are many combinations. With flower your

hands turn like long arm, hands are separte,

this is first.



Second and most important is timing, cause as you add

lockout or foil, you add one beat.



Flower has uniqe kind of beat count.



Long arm has two beats, although it's just one circle.

It meens that you can do with one hand long arm and

the other two circles to get timing.



light,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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alphalight
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

alphalight

member
Location: south germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:morning,
so can we call them kind of btb flowers ?

richee do u come to paris end of may ?

peace light and love

ap


peace and light

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:kind a like flower*? wink (baseball reference if you didn't get it...if that didn't work, google roger maris) tongue

and could someone just answer this very simple question...

 Written by: me


is it a flower if it can't be done facing one direction?



kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:Going by Richee's definition - yes.

The way I learned flowers and flower turns was by splitting it into individual hand motions therefore the hand sequence for the btb flower that I posted before is a flower as it retains the hand motion for a flower even when the poi are btb. That was my reason for naming it a a btb flower.

The sequence I posted earlier has all the basic components of a flower. It is longarm (although the btb lockout is very difficult to do longarm) and it has lockouts/foils which should mean its classed as a flower even though the original couldn't be done facing in one direction.

But going by Richee's definition a flower isn't really a move in its own right but a longarm extension of of an existing move. For instance butterfly flower is simply an extension of butterfly and weave flower is the same but for a weave.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted: Written by: Sporky


But going by Richee's definition a flower isn't really a move in its own right but a longarm extension of of an existing move. For instance butterfly flower is simply an extension of butterfly and weave flower is the same but for a weave.



A windmill is just a wallplane 2 beat cross-follow that's been raised above your head. A corkscrew is just a horizontal plane 2 beat cross-follow.
Why are they moves in their own rights if a flower isn't?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Matty_B
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Matty_B

veteran
Location: Blu's Pocket, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1314
Posted:a weave flower is not really true, as you are no longer weaving, it just uses the name so that people know that the poi are spinning in the same direction and in split time....

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:Sorry. I worded that last reply badly. Most of the time when I use flowers they are a transition between two moves and therefore I don't think of them as a move. I know they are but in my daft little brain I don't think of them as such.

To take my train of thought to its extreme - there are only two 'moves', normal circles at your sides and butterfly, everything else is merely a way of extending an existing move.

But then thats just daft.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:and then if you want to be jedi.... 'there are no moves' wink

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:Or if you want to be in the Matrix... "It is not the poi that spin. It is yourself" wink

Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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infinite


infinite

member
Location: ashland OR

Total posts: 110
Posted:Icon has some great flower images in his gallery, one with lockouts and one with butterfly time arms spinning. animated gif's. I still have no video of anything.

dont make peoples heads turn, give them whiplash.

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted: Written by: Sporky


To take my train of thought to its extreme - there are only two 'moves', normal circles at your sides and butterfly, everything else is merely a way of extending an existing move.




I brushed upon that a while ago somewhere - where are the boundaries between moves?
To me, if you're doing a fountain and start putting a windmill at the top, you're no longer doing a fountain - you're now doing a windmill. Others say that they're just doing a variation of a standard fountain.
Should we have set definitions for each individual move or should we just lump them into large families of related moves?
I'm going to have to have a proper think about that I reckon. It might take a while wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Matty_B
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Matty_B

veteran
Location: Blu's Pocket, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1314
Posted:names of 'moves' are just useful to get your point across to others and to make teaching others easier

I guess they are just a combination of different circles, throws, stalls and taps


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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted: Written by: Matty B



names of 'moves' are just useful to get your point across to others and to make teaching others easier



I guess they are just a combination of different circles, throws, stalls and taps





Exactly because when you have a real flow going you don't think about each individual move but keeping that flow going. When I'm teaching someone a new move I almost always teach the person what they can do both before and after it so that they have the ability to maintian the flow. But that makes all moves a transition and the only true moves that a spinner should focus on are the beginning and the end of the spin.



 Written by: TheBovrilMonkey



Should we have set definitions for each individual move or should we just lump them into large families of related moves?





I think that kinda happens anyway. We have set defenitions for teaching but when the evolution of our spinning gets to a certain point we start thinking more about keeping the poi flowing and not the individual moves themselves. At the moment all I have to think about when spinning is linking the 'butterfly' family with 'weave' based moves.



But then I'm probably thinking too much ubbangel


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand

Total posts: 1799
Posted:when i practice tai ji, i begin by selecting certain postures from the form and aligning my body "just so".. so that every body part is as close to my possible perfection as i can get them.. and just stand there, breathing, relaxing into the posture.. i do a few different postures, one after the other, before actually doing the form. in the form, there are labels attached to certain "movesments" (ie, brush knee, single whip, crane spreads wings, wave arms..), but it is emphasized that you are continually on a continuum between yin and yang (emptiness/fullness, earth/sky etc), and that the extreme of one movement (ie the standing postures that i was holding prior to starting the form), is essentially the one moment that that posture "exists" within the form..

what im trying to say is that there are individual poi "moves" and you can label every single aspect of spinning, but at the same time, you are only moving between moves, and never actually staying on/in/at one move.

(unless you simply repeat a move continually.. but i think that an aspect of poi is in freestyling your spin so that every single second you are doing something new/different etc...)

so they are moves, but only to provide a road-map along the way.. at the end of the day, there is poi being spun (just like the water is still wet, no matter how big the wave. :P).

and anyway, they are only labelled and defined so that we can relate to each other with a contextual understanding, and only have definition in relation to all the rest of the moves there are. by themselves, they are nothing..

smile


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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any_suggestions
GOLD Member since Sep 2005

enthusiast
Location: wales,llanelli in the south

Total posts: 238
Posted:can some 1 please tell me how i can do a nice flower?,i cant grasp them,any help would be great but with out all the pendulem and isolation stuff bacause i dont really understand it,i just enjoy spinning.

to many freaks to little circuses!

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alphalight
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

alphalight

member
Location: south germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:check in the shop nicks dvd the scales of poi is out that would be a great begining for ur circles

im sure u will soon love them

ap wink


peace and light

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Suibom


Suibom

addict
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 577
Posted: Written by:

can some 1 please tell me how i can do a nice flower?,i cant grasp them,any help would be great but with out all the pendulem and isolation stuff bacause i dont really understand it,i just enjoy spinning.



Below is a post I made to myspace.com regarding flower breakdown for practice:

 Written by: suibom


Everything I've learned has been self taught, mostly from watching vids, somewhat from reading posts (I suck at visualizing a move from text), alot of practice and playing with plane control. As far as flowers and antispin flowers go, here's a breakdown exercise that should help you out (somewhat reposted from a post of mine at the "Poi, Glowsticks and Twirling" group):

-------------------------------------
"About to embark upon flowers i reckon... not really sure where else to go. Anyone got any tips? Had a play with them once or twice and brain and arms dont seem to want to connect!"

Easiest way I've found to train muscle memory for flowers is:
1. Work the arm movements w/out poi, do longarm split time forward rotations, backstroke and butterfly (longarm rotations at sides going opposite directions). This will help loosen the arms for when you've got poi in them.

2. Work the arm movements with poi in one hand only, focus on wrist movement and arm extension. Try and get the poi to meet your body at every 90 degree turn of your arms. As you begin to get better, pay less attention to your poi arm and focus on the extension and location of the poiless arm, this will help to ensure muscle memory is taking over. Then switch arms.

3. Now start with both poi. Again, focus on arm extension and wrist movements. Try and get your poi to meet center at the same time.

Once you get good with basic flowers, try antispin and turns.
-------------------------------------

Use the same steps above for antispin. Now, if you're hitting yourself when spinning, it is due to plane control. Planes are best controlled by wrist and finger movements, so, when running through the steps above, focus on wrist and finger movements to keep the planes straight.

HTH, good luck,
- Sui




The thread can be found here: http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...95F2D0521988984
br>
Peace,
- Sui


Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.

Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"

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any_suggestions
GOLD Member since Sep 2005

enthusiast
Location: wales,llanelli in the south

Total posts: 238
Posted:thanks for the help,ill have to keep trying and see what i get

to many freaks to little circuses!

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garthy
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

garthy

old hand
Location: Bristol, England

Total posts: 717
Posted:Not sure if they are flowers or not but they're a variation of them and I found hard to get my head around especially the antispin change. The long arm circles frame the flower done with the other arm quite nicly. biggrin

Do one arm doing a Flower (any kind really) and one arm doing long arm circles.
You can swap between them either by changing the arm that does the petals or if the flower arm is doing antispin change direction of both arms so the antispin on now does just long arm circles and the other swaps to antispin.

Nicked this of Mr UCOF who was doing them at falmouth. so thanks you UCOF biggrin hug

Make sense?


"**grumble*spuriouswindmills*grumble**" - Coleman
"if poi was only for girls there wouldnt be many good poi spinners...." - Nx

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Yea, check out Icon's vid with the straight arm parallel lockouts... cool

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:I was wondering how people find 'counting' their antispin flowers - especially in regards to arm movement.
im sure as i go on i wont be counting as much - but it seemed to be a good learning tool to master the timing

i seem to recall Dom teaching them using a square, and moving your arm through those 4 corners while ant-spinning to get the basic 4 petal pattern - i really didnt quite ever understand the 4 count timing of this - if anything i seem to be counting to 3 for an entire cycle - and i have checked in the mirror that i am doing what i should be.

should i maybe just abandon that structure and focus on maintaining a full arm extension and circular movement while antispinning, then as i feel more comfortable with that go into petal counts and whatnot?

or perhaps try counting but with less focus on the square?

if theres any old posts in this thread that ive missed that already cover this my apologies wink

thanx hug
E ubbrollsmile


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:i remember to talking to meenik about this... and i think you have to count when the poi head gose past your shoulder, instead of when it is at the bottom of its 'circle'... im sure other people can explian it better than that though.

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:oli is bang on there - beats in concentric patterns must be counted relative to the centre of the larger circle.

if you try to keep the beat count at the same point of the small circles (e.g. the bottom), the bits of arc that the big circle adds or takes away messes up the count.

its one of the reasons (if not the main reason) that discussion of fountains caused so much confusion back in the day.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Usually one giant, long arm circle beat
takes timing of two beats with small
circle.

 Written by:


Coleman

its one of the reasons (if not the main reason) that discussion of fountains caused so much confusion back in the day.




It is more flower causality,
fountain has small circles.

lightning,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:ahh that makes much more sense!

thanx guys hug
E ubbrollsmile


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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