Page: 123
NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:First of, let me say that my very clever Molly explained this to me very well. Unfortunately, I've found no supporting information and quite a bit of conflicting information. Nobody in my school understands either.

Here's what I know:

England + Scotland + Wales = Great Britain
Great Britain + Northern Ireland = "The United Kindom"
I also know that there are some very small islands off of the coast that are exceptions to the above.

What I don't understand, and keep getting conflicting information about, is which of the above are COUNTRIES.

Is the phrase "Scotland is a country within the country of Great Britain, which is within the country of the United Kingdom." correct? Cuz that just sounds weird.

[Note, it's just the word 'country' I'm having issues with, not the geography.]

So I guess to make it simple...

Question 1:
Is "Scotland" a country?

Question 2:
Is "Great Britain" a country?

Question 3:
Is "The United Kindom" a country?

I could throw a wrench into it all by bringing up the word "nation" but let's keep it simple.

I'd like the most technically correct answer. Everything I keep getting is "Well, you could say that..." and "It's almost like..." and "Most people would just say..." but there's got to be a 'real' answer and I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks!

UK's biggest fan, ubblove
NYC


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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Thanks FP, I was wiping the sweat from my brow as I typed that one.. I know how serious an issue it is to those concerned!

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by:
Is "Scotland" a country?



Scotland? A country? Nah, it's a county up norf somewhere tongue


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think the real answer is this:

"NYC, the term 'country' is outdated and vague. Even the wikipedia won't touch it because the proper term in today's global political climate is 'sovereign state'."

So:
#1: Scotland is a country because of it's history of independance.
#2: Northern Ireland is not a country.
#3: Great Britain is not a country.
#4: The UK is not a country by historical terms but is a country by the current governing system.

But:
#1: Scotland was a sovereign state at one point in history.
#2: Northern Ireland was never a sovereign state.
#3: Great Britain was a sovereign state until it added Northern Ireland.
#4: The "United Kindom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland" is the only current sovereign state.

I think. biggrin

I gotta figure this out before I retire to the British suburbs. Or would that be the United Kindomish suburbs? wink


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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: NYC

#2: Northern Ireland is not a country.




Again, you really really have to be careful with that. Many people would (seriously) disagree with you there. There is no obvious right answer to it.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Lol.

Well, at the minute we're not a country - we're back as part of the UK.
I think we might have been a country for a few months a couple of years ago, but then our politicians fcuked up again.

And in the wake of the Northern Bank heist and possible culprits, god knows when we're going to be able to govern ourselves again.

Can't be trusted ubblol


Getting to the other side smile

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:I was thinking that the UK is composed of several countries, including Northern Ireland.

Man this is too confusing!


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:NYC I think you may need to research Devolution (of Scotland and Wales) in the uk too as this has taken on a more drastic form of seperating the uk into formal and recognised individual countries.

And I'm not surprised you don't get it, we know you Americans have trouble dealing with anything involving more than around 230 years of historical heritage tongue wink


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:nearly-all-gone

nearly got it but a little confused.... Northern Ireland isn't a country in it's own right. That's a fact. The debate is whether it 'belongs' (used very loosely) to Britain or to Ireland.

But I agree with FP about it being it's own country.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Ah, fair enough. Thanks for clearing that up smile I don't think a career in internation politics is beckoning me, somehow!

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Not answering th emain question, NYC, but clarifying one of the definitions, (according toi your own quote of Wikipedia)

Written by:
the three nations on the island of Great Britain



Therefore, if wikipedia is correct, the name for the land mass that encompasses all of these areas is Great Britain.

So I would use Great Britain as a completely non-political name and use it from a purely physical geographogical angle (cool word huh?).

From what others have said, that leaves the United Kingdom as the Royal Family's area of rule (which does not necessarily include Commonwealth nations) within that geogrphical area. Oh and inculding the little islands and stuff too.


So, purely from what has been posted in this topic.


Great Britain = The land mass itself, which could be descibed as a largeish island.

UK = The kingdom of the British Royal Family, within the above landmass.


If you used these definitions, then you have simplified the whole issue, and now rely on peoples definition of "kingdom" when applied to this area.

Trying to then define the areas such as Ireland and Wales which are obviously contested by a number of different people will just confuse the issue, so I would use a vague description as above which is more dependant on who you talk to, without as much chance of offending peoples...

WHEW! Now I'm back to making some balloons...


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:it's actually a teeny island smile

and would that be geographical? or geological? wink geographogical's only cool cos you just made it up tongue wink


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:it's the "phogical" that makes it. I think I'm going to use that more often. I'm gonna phoge it up from now on.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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=Flashpoint=
=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs...
Member Since: 1st Sep 2004
Total posts: 2719
Posted:Right. The correct name for the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Commonwealth.

Great Britain is the landmass of England, Scotland and Wales.

The Commonwealth is the remnant of The British Empire, which at some point in most of your history was in charge of your sovereign state. (I might add there, we probably stole it by force of arms, which as a British citizen, I apologise for)

The Commonwealth is a little like NATO, only not with so many powerful members, in that it was created to maintain a diplomatic membership of the previous Empire nations (Canada, Australia et al) so as to maintain economic and mutual defence treaties.

I would like to add that, as (i think) the only state to forcibly detach themselves from the British Empire, the USA is not part of the Commonwealth, but since we maintain the finest standing army in the world (in terms of tactical flexibility and training) the USA still sees us as a major friend.

Scotland, and Wales are i believe known as principalities, since they have a measure of devolved power from central government, but are still answerable to it. Northern Ireland does not have a devolved parliament, cos theyre still fighting over it.
Australia is a sovereign state in itself, as it is not answerable to central government and the Queen, but is part of the Commonwealth, and stll recognises the Queen as Head of State.

Have I missed anything?


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:"Northern Ireland does not have a devolved parliament, cos theyre still fighting over it. "

Yeush, so embarrassing.

redface


Getting to the other side smile

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Charles

So I would use Great Britain as a completely non-political name and use it from a purely physical geographogical angle (cool word huh?).

Great Britain = The land mass itself, which could be descibed as a largeish island.




I said that. Scroll up. biggrin

I was referring in the post you were quoting to the time before Northern Ireland was annexed. Wasn't there a time when Scotland, England and Wales were joined with no Northern Ireland?

But I agree. Great Britian is a land mass. I even said it first. wink


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:I think it's easier to solve this in terms of rugby, scotland, england, ireland and wales all have seperate rugby teams for the world cup, therefore they are seperate nations.

Occasionally they join up to become 'the lions'. This is like GB. (Or transformers) Unfortunately, scotland, ireland and wales and england are not 'countries in disguise' but in fact are countries. That just happen to have the secret power to transform into a sovereign state when they have to fight off a bigger robot, or er, country.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:Oh meg, you always have the best analogies smile
But will NYC know about transformers or are you further muddying these already murky waters?


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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:Written by:
Here's where the Commonwealth comes in. It is one "State" (in the sense used in "Head of State"), but multiple governments. The Queen is Head of State in Canada and Australia, but has no power over their governments, since they're independent COUNTRIES; nor does the British Parliament have any voice in their affairs



Umm, about that. the governer general, who is the queen's representative, has a pretty active role in our politics. or so they say.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:Now, see, I did not know that. Then Australia (you're in Australia, right?) isn't really independent, is it?

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Austrailia is legally totally independant. They just take advice from the UK.

Much the same way that the UK is a totally independant country but if George Bush gave them advice Tony Blair would... eek

wink


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Yes, let's go.
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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:Hmm, NYC, I think your analogy is somewhat flawed...what threat or intimidation tactic does the UK have over Australia? biggrin

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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JakBJC
JakBJC

member
Location: Norwich, UK
Member Since: 19th Jul 2004
Total posts: 117
Posted:Just a little to add, to help stir the discussion up, Isle of Man. Its status is kinda complicated. Although its between the Great Britain land mass and the island of Ireland its indipendant from everyone besides the Queen.

I think this info is right. Is anybody on the forums from Isle of Man? They might know.


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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:I lost the thread of what was happening shortly after Simian joined in. Can someone please recap for the stupid me type people?

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I knew I should have put this under "Discussion".

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Well i was going to say that. But i'm trying to cut down on that sort of thing.

Didn't even bother pointing it out to the mods.


Seem to be getting slack in my old age.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:MiG - the Govenor General Major General Michael Jeffrey (sorry, I like typing that cos I find it an amusingly long title) has a very little role in our politics at all. Yes, he must give every law passed "royal assent" but he pretty much just stamps everything. while he has the power to not stamp stuff, he does it most of the time. he pretty much is a figure head, or so i learnt in legal studies.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:6ho5t, I looked that up once for work (because Isle of Man, Isle of Mann, and Mannin were none of them in our Country table). It's a Crown Protectorate of the UK, and I think it has a certain limited autonomy, but it's considered part of the United Kingdom.

Anyone who knows more, please speak up. I'm chiefly concerned about the extinction of Manx Gaelic, which still had a few speakers last I looked.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:OK, more confusion for you

Wales is Not a country, it is a Principality headed by our dear Charlie boy, the Prince of Wales you see?
Scotland is still a country.
Apparently this is to do with the fact that the English conquered Wales back in the day, whereas King James VI (I) - the Scots had had lots of James, the English none hence the silly title - united the two Kingdoms since he happened to be king of both.

I hope that is right or I'll be in trouble.

Northern Ireland is still a mystery.
The Isle of Man has a certain amount of autonomy in law making - silly things like having no speed limits on some roads and never needing an MOT.
The Lord of Man is Queenie, making it a Crown Dependancy and they have a Lieutenant Governor appointed by the queen and a Chief Minister elected by the people.
more info

learn something new etc. etc. smile


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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:Well, a principality or princedom can still be a country. The last true Prince of Wales - and the only actual Welshman recognized as such by an English monarch - was [url=http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:yXCWloantZkJ:www.100welshheroes.com/en/biography/llywelynapgruffudd+"Llywelyn+ap+Gruffudd"+1282&hl=en]Llywelyn ap Gruffudd[/url], who was killed in 1282.



OK, this looked OK yesterday. WTF? And I used the URL wizard thingie, too. What's going on here?

EDITED_BY: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean) (1105735835)


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Flame Boy
Flame Boy

veteran
Location: Out
Member Since: 13th Jul 2004
Total posts: 1508
Posted:Ireland is a country but only N.Ireland is included in the United Kingdom.

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! My giant stick broke!!! In two!!! My stick broke in two!!! ubbcrying

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Page: 123

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