Forums > Videos > video critique - hop to nice or skill level to do so just not there?

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:so one thing ive noticed is that theres loads of videos and very little constructive critisicm, i find trying to get constructive critisicm is alot like pulling teeth using jellybeans !! so im wondering are ppl

a) to polite
b) dont know how to do the moves so cant offer advice
c) cant be bothered to put the time in to analyse a vid and post comments
d) can do the movements but just do them and dont understand how to do them
e) insert other reason here


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:I disagree with everyone.

You should all do a search :P


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:go fix your search engine and i will tongue

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:They are not bumbling about in the dark. Why do you see the individual exploration that is taking place in such a negative way? And even if they are, the real way forward could be hidden in the darkest of corners which the guy with all the light thought himself too enlightened to look in.

hug2


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:i dont see individual exploration as negative just slow, why re invent the wheel type thing, imho all knowledge should be free if you dont question what you do then its hard for it to grow, nature exists in two states, growth and the process of stagnation death and decay .....

some ppl have beautiful whole body movements and moreso move as in such a way that its like a conversation you miss fairy being one of my favourites. from my experience its quite a difficult thing to do well and few ppl pay enough attention to it. that dark corner you speak of i believe is hidden in the fluidity of whole body dance


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:yes but do you know how long it took me to get here? And how?

Through wandering about, getting lost, being blindfolded and finding it out for myself. I say reinvent the wheel as many times as you like cos only then can you understand it fully.

Make the building blocks for yourself, however long it takes, and you will always know how they are balanced and how to continue building and progressing. Take the foundations from someone or somewhere else and you have missed a whole stage in the development and will never be able to fully understand the subject as a whole.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:look you two, you're both right! It's just different floats for different boats smile

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:yes we are both right. And we're just talking about it. That's what discussion boards are for wink

ubbloco I'm in your sig!! I didn't know Oli was going to leave that in - does anyone else get really confused by the sound of their voice on answerphones and vids and things? eugh! tongue


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:if id had to reinvent the wheel for contact i wouldnt be anywhere near where i am now and i dont think id understand the little i know any better because to be able to do the movements requires correct technique which u can only gain through understanding, in the same way that if u dance wrong u fall over or worse u dont move at all. just because u dont have the initial realisations which lead u to the movements doesnt mean that u cant have those same realisations later while doing the movement where everything suddenly all makes sense.

like that 12 year old kid at falmouth that got the first half of the matrix down solid after 15 mins having never picked up a staff before he had no concept of staff at all but by following instructions and listening to the theory of what was supposed to happen he was able to do the movement. no doubt if he continues he will come up with all sorts of mad variations because he has some concepts to tinker with which he will come to understand over time


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:true.

*sigh*

agree to disagree? biggrin ubblol hug2


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:rolleyes ubblol ubbidea tongue cool ubbangel ubbrollsmile hug

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:ubbidea indeedy! ahem....... oh well ubbangel

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:I'm not talking about staff movements ben, I'm talking about your body movements. Why else would I have a whole site of videos for teaching staff moves?

What I'm saying is: Its your body, and you dicate it's movements. You know what movements you want / like to do while spinning. Go work out what they are and how to do them nicer. Don't ask us to do all the hard work. Do some yourself. Poohead. wink hug


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Socks
Socks

Arf! Can I have a biscut?
Location: North America, Mid West
Member Since: 28th Nov 2004
Total posts: 288
Posted:Personally, I like to know what's the accepted "norm", then wing it from there.juggle

Then again I dress like a dog, so there's no sense of normalcy here. ubbloco

Socks


I'm weird. Just work through that and we'll all be fine.

"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater suggest that he wear a tail." - Fran Lebowitz

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Written by:
"Dogs learn quicker if yout pat them and give them biscuits than if you yell at them and hit them."

Glass


You cant compare dogs to people. That reminds me of this pitbull i once had, no way in hell you could wack him, he'd take your arm off, i had to use the old kennel cause food didn't work with him. Although all dogs are different, just like people.

To be honest, i like all your guys videos, regardless of skill lvl. And if you dont like mine, kiss my black @ss. I get enough critizm from my friends, mirrors, camera and myself.

Ben, hopefully we can hook up if u do make it to NZ, sharing moves is the best form of critiz'm iv found yet biggrin


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:hmmm.

to all the above posts.

criticism is good if asked for

doncha think?

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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mo-seph
mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Member Since: 24th Feb 2004
Total posts: 524
Posted:People seem to have a funny idea of what constructive criticism is.

It's not going to make everyone into identikit spinners, it doesn't have to be "you should do this the exact way that everyone else does" or anything like that.

Done well, it should help you to express yourself better. As an example, there are often movements people do which they're not really aware of, which feel quite good, but look bad, or confuse the visuals so that what you're actually trying to show doesn't come across as strongly. And it quite often helps to have people point things like that out. Things like having someone point out what your *other* arm's doing when you're spinning staff, or that I've forgotten about my back leg *again*, which is easy not to notice while you're spinnning, or in a mirror.

It might be that someone notices dimensions which are missing from your work which are hard to see while you're doing it. Everyone has different eyes, and being told what you're missing can open up whole new worlds to explore.

Anyway, enough of that. I think there's not much constructive criticism because
- it's really hard to do well
- it's not really something that the general spinning community is into
- it sucks criticizing a video, it's much better if you can have a chat.

I try to think of useful things to say, but I often can't frown

All the constructive criticism I've been given has helped me smile


monkeys ate my brain

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

yes but do you know how long it took me to get here? And how?

Through wandering about, getting lost, being blindfolded and finding it out for myself. I say reinvent the wheel as many times as you like cos only then can you understand it fully.

Make the building blocks for yourself, however long it takes, and you will always know how they are balanced and how to continue building and progressing. Take the foundations from someone or somewhere else and you have missed a whole stage in the development and will never be able to fully understand the subject as a whole.


personally, i resonate most with this view.
u = sage
cool


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Psi
boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 529
Posted:stumbling opon this thread rather late .. rolleyes
Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

Make the building blocks for yourself, however long it takes, and you will always know how they are balanced and how to continue building and progressing. Take the foundations from someone or somewhere else and you have missed a whole stage in the development and will never be able to fully understand the subject as a whole.



I totally agree. I find this with many things i want to learn, not just spinning. But if entirely totally isolated from other people this process takes too long (not that i'm in a rush - but there's only one life time) - seeing other people & the paths they have taken expands what you think is possible. I doubt i would have ever even attempted to tangle two poi together to then untangle them in a controlled fashion if i hadnt seen someone do it. Once the idea was possible in my head, i could then play and come up with my own versions of the basic underlying idea. So for me, the most productive periods of development are those where i get the balance right between spinning & exchanging with other people and spininng & exploring on my own...

Anyway, my couple of pence added.. wink

Mike biggrin wave hug


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

Make the building blocks for yourself, however long it takes, and you will always know how they are balanced and how to continue building and progressing. Take the foundations from someone or somewhere else and you have missed a whole stage in the development and will never be able to fully understand the subject as a whole.



i'm afraid i have a large disagreement here.

why do you think we have schools, universities, other establishments of learning?

so we don't have to build our own foundations over and over again.

if you truly beleive that, then
a) you wouldn't go to workshops with other spinners
b) you'd be living in a darkened room with no exits or entrances.

i know i'm exaggerating a smidgeon here wink but i couldn't disagree more with the sentiment of 'you just have to muddle through something on your own. yes, up to a point, but not in the slightest should it be your overriding philosophy.

grr.
wink

oh, and dave, i disagree with you as well. i think people are well aware of what 'constructive' criticism is. or at least everybody has their own idea. for example, i routinely let kenn shout at me to make my shows better. if it was someone i didn't know, i would be offended. i put videos on the net for people to learn from and to enjoy. if they don't then so be it. i ask for criticism from ooh, about four people who's opinions i actively seek.

personalised constructive criticism is the way forward. wink


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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mo-seph
mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Member Since: 24th Feb 2004
Total posts: 524
Posted:Written by: bluecat
oh, and dave, i disagree with you as well. i think people are well aware of what 'constructive' criticism is. or at least everybody has their own idea.



Hmmm, I was being a bit unclear.

What I meant was that I think this discussion had moved away from constructuve criticism, and was arguing about individual exploration vs learning from others (which is a contentious issue around here, and I tend to avoid discussions on it, as it's pretty much all been said already).

I think that constructive criticism can help people with their individual learning, and won't make everyone play the same, or leave you with areas of things that you do but you don't really understand.

Written by: bluecat
for example, i routinely let kenn shout at me to make my shows better.



Yeah, I enjoyed having kenn shout at me, it really helped break some things down, and bring out some presentational stuff which was lacking.

One of the biggest things I find helpful with criticism is having a view without the personal attchments that I've built up. When I'm writing music, it's been useful to have people say "that section is really cluttered" after I've just spent hours working on it. I don't want to take anything out, because I've just put a lot of effort in, when I take a step back and think about whether that person is right, I generally end up with a better piece. Or I might think that actuall it's OK, and they don't quite get it.

You always have to understand criticism in the context of the person that's giving it to you, which is one of the reasons that I don't often manage to give criticism here, and why I agree that:

Written by: bluecat
personalised constructive criticism is the way forward. wink



monkeys ate my brain

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:ok. I don't really know how to put my thoughts into words - maybe this isn't the best place for me!

smile

I think what Psi said is closer to the way I feel. There is of course a balance. And I think it's truly natural to share knowledge. But I don't go to lectures and to school to accept everything that is put before me. I ask and explore, and develop a sense of understanding of my own that is based on the steps that I have taken on my own, not the ones that were put there for me.

I think, for me at least (and that's all I'm talking about), it's the same with spining.

Our lives are built of the experiences we have. Some of those are our own observations, some are ones others press onto us (in schools etc) and some are ones we seek out (asking for help, for instruction). But I think that with all of the above, the real insight comes from the way you finally sort it out on your own.

I don't think it is my overriding philosophy to muddle through on my own. Without trying to get too deep or to try and say things I haven't fully got to grips with myself yet......... I am aware that at the end of the day, I am the only one who can really affect things in my little existance, and that is why the paths that I find and follow for myself are really the most fulfilling, complete and productive.

I still don't think that makes sense.

I'll try my best to explain it a bit more if anyone wants! biggrin


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:that's so off topic. this was about constructive criticism. oops.

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:well miss fairy off all the constructive criticism i got when i was practically begging ppl to criticise anything about my style you gave me the best advice so i think we can allow you lee way with you ramblings wink

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:lol - why thank you wink

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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