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Devil - D


Devil - D

member
Location: Holland (Deventer)

Total posts: 72
Posted:Last weekend I'd a discussion with some friends about anti - subcultures. There are a lot of subcultures who are anti commercial. Our conclusion was: There's a market for every subculture, even the anti - commercial cultures. Because, why do like a great group all the same clothes, music, events and all the stuff around? Because the market got a package for every subculture!. These markets are less great than mainstream markets, but there is a market for these cultures.

Conclusion: everyone likes to consume? Even if you're anti - commercial? I think that anti - commercial is a image for a lot, and the market got a package for them. So they only do it to be different? While a lot others do the same! (The target-group of the market.) Are they hypocritical?


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:(Was this supposed to be a reponse for the Consumerism Christmas thread? It seems a bit relevant...)

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Devil - D


Devil - D

member
Location: Holland (Deventer)

Total posts: 72
Posted:Well, I didn't read that thread, I open this thread because I'd a discussion. Now I like to know what others thinking about this!)

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4991
Posted:does that include those whom like to make and design their own clothes?... theres no market for that!... unless they wish to sell them on; thus creating a new market!

i personally dont wear many labels nothing too namely unless i like the item in question.. then its strictly colour and design and suitability to me and how i feel in said garments... nothing what so ever to do with comercialism or designer fashion.

My brother on the other hand... loves his deigner clothes... then again he still lives at home and earns nearly 30k a year! so he can afford it; unlike me debts and self supported since i left home at 18.. my brother insidently is 28!.
He has a friend whom works for Hilton in london who will happily buy a belt for 500... because he knows he is gonna get some fine skirt that knows what she wants when she see's said belt.. im sure some one will back me up on that, some thing to do with status!.. i wouldn't know im quite happy crusing around on a unicycle minding my own buisness rather than spending that kinda money just cos its going to get me laid.

Another thing i should point out is that some times, the more expensive stuff normally with a name! will be of a better quality... i have an ONZA unicycle... i got it because its good!.. i could have gone one better with a KH but i didn't, looking back wish i had have done but still both good and top of the range unicycles...

in conclusion... you get what you pay for and there is a market for absolutly every thing... "ebay".


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:great topic smile



marketing is generally about making the most money out of a concept by offering the product or service to those people who are likely to want it the most (the target market).



so yes, you are right in a lot of ways.



the difference is, as you move away from the mainstream, the ideals of marketing become less about doing it to maximise consumerism or make yourself the most money possible, and more to provide those that have similar ideals and interests to your own with a quality product or service that they will appreciate.



depending how cynical you are you could say that the change in attitude we see in 'alternative' markets is either due to the type of people involved in those areas having common interests and ideals at heart or you could say that it is simply because the markets involved there are much smaller and hence are less inclined to spend money targeting them so aggressively...



if i understood you though, you were saying that those markets *are* in fact becoming large and being targeted as much as the 'mainstream' markets.



is that being too cynical?



unfortunately, probably not.





i like to believe that although i myself am a massive consumer (and find it hard to move away from), that i understand what influences make me that way and that i at least have the desire to change and until then, the knowledge and willpower to choose which commercial ventures i choose to support.



there's a very good movie called slc punk which examines the contradiction that is conformning to non-conformist ideals.



and there's a lovely soliloque in a movie called trainspotting relating to consumerism, though i wouldn't recommend the alternative presented there... umm





and finally:



"...I know all the marketing people are going, 'he's doing a joke...' there's no joke here whatsoever. Suck a tail-pipe, f*cking hang yourself, borrow a gun from a Yank friend - I don't care how you do it. Rid the world of your evil f*cking machinations. I know what all the marketing people are thinking right now too, "Oh, you know what Bill's doing, he's going for that anti-marketing dollar. That's a good market, he's very smart." Oh man, I am not doing that. You f*cking evil scumbags! 'Ooh, you know what Bill's doing now, he's going for the righteous indignation dollar. That's a big dollar. A lot of people are feeling that indignation. We've done research - huge market. He's doing a good thing.' Godammit, I'm not doing that, you scum-bags!

Quit putting a godamm dollar sign on every f*cking thing on this planet! 'Ooh, the anger dollar. Huge. Huge in times of recession. Giant market, Bill's very bright to do that.' God, I'm just caught in a f*cking web! 'Ooh the trapped dollar, big dollar, huge dollar. Good market - look at our research. We see that many people feel trapped. If we play to that and then separate them into the trapped dollar...' How do you live like that? And I bet you sleep like f*cking babies at night, don't you?"



the ever righteous and speaker of the truth, the prophet Bill Hicks (see how much i respect him - i actually used capitals for his name).


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Woohoo! Bill Hicks was a god (and that was all in the 80s!).

frown Such a talent taken so young.

I'd like to say something about the fire community gradually becoming one of those commercial sub-cultures, but after that other thread re: a certain American 'entrepreneur', I'm not going to bother biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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Same as Dostoevskiy


Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...

Total posts: 54
Posted:i slightly disagree with coleman on defining marketing
marketing referes to relations between two sides on selling/purchasing goods, services, ect.
so if you buy/sell anything you're into marketing.


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yep.

it was less a definition and more a generalisation of marketing as made by non-consumerists.

like i said, the ideals of marketing seem to change depending on the product/service and the target market.

what influences those changes is the interesting bit i reckon...

(p.s. are those pictures in the gallery of you?!!!?? massive respect if they are biggrin)


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:God bless ya Bill! Come back to us - we need you.

Cloathing brands strike me as a bit odd. The norms are reversed. If Nike wanted to advertise on a bill board they'd have to pay for the space. Yet they've managed to convince people to pay them to do their advertising for them - ie on the space across the customer's cheast/hat/shoes


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Same as Dostoevskiy


Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...

Total posts: 54
Posted:about the pictures, yep.. Elbrus.. europes highest mountain. 2001


about nike,..
the trick isn't convincing people to advertize nike on their cheast/hat/shoes...
the trick is to convince you local gym instructor to advice everyone to wear nike stuff without talking to him.


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

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Mistress_Maledicti


Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over
Location: Wolverhampton

Total posts: 192
Posted:It's maybe not so much that everyone wants to 'consume', rather that everyone wants to 'identify'. If the way to identify yourself as belonging to an anti-commercial subculture is to wear a shirt or something to tell people that, then it's what you do. Almost a self-defeating principle.

sin


"Abashed, the Devil stood and saw how awful Goodness is"

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babajaga
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

babajaga

old hand
Location: Berlin, Germany

Total posts: 863
Posted:I think there is a conflict in everybody between the need to join a group to fit/belong to it, to sozialize and the need for individualism and everybody is working on that in another way some like mainstream stuff some other not; it is part of self-expression

What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.

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Same as Dostoevskiy


Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...

Total posts: 54
Posted:me personaly.
i DO buy specific clothes to identify myself with some group and i don't see anything wrong with.


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:It kind of makes it less authentic when bands like "Rage Against the Machine" sold 6 million copies for Sony Records, one of the biggest machines in the music business.

"You nonconformists all look the same."

Couldn't be more true. I get a lot of "I'm an anarchist because my dad is a jerk" vibe in High School.

I do believe that the 'anti commercial' movement is sadly very commercialized.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:No group is individualistc by definition. I walk into specialty stores like Hot Topic which caters to the adolescent, psuedo-goth community. Many of their products cater to attitudes against 'popular culture,' which is fine. I just don't like it when any group uses a false individuality to put themselves ahead of another. Also known as the "We're better than you because we're individuals" syndrome... From there it just denigrates into intolerance or prejudice.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Devil - D


Devil - D

member
Location: Holland (Deventer)

Total posts: 72
Posted:Written by: Prometheus

I just don't like it when any group uses a false individuality to put themselves ahead of another.



I' agree! And the worst thing is...most of them call themselve open-minded, while they ignore everything around them!


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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Written by: Firepoise


I'd like to say something about the fire community gradually becoming one of those commercial sub-cultures, but after that other thread re: a certain American 'entrepreneur', I'm not going to bother biggrin



The thing of it is, that in a free-market system, everything can be commodified and every demographic or subculture is a potential 'market.' The fire community is no different -- it could be argued that the spinning community isn't merely becoming a commercial sub-culture but is one already.

Setting aside the issue of building a business on the selling of poi lessons wink , there are plenty of other poi-related businesses already. This website, for one. While the forums here are a truly great community and the free videos are a useful learning tool, it could also be argued that they're marketing techniques to establish 'brand loyalty' to Home of Poi and its retail arm. Aerotech, Neon Husky, Balls U Like etc. are all businesses profiting from the spinning world -- so like it or not, though many of us here would consider ourselves "anti-commercial," we are already a target market. Granted, there's a certain amount of 'indie-cred' still associated with the scene, and these businesses are small and targeted at a small niche that is nowhere near the size of mass-market companies like Nike or Coca-Cola, but the point is that spinners are already a market.

And while I, like many others it seems, am very very excited for the forthcoming Illuminati poi, the posting of the videos and the 'chatter' about them amounts to a viral marketing campaign, even though the makers and promoters may not have framed it in those terms. Or is that an example of marketing (in the bad capitalist global domination way) appropriating authentic community dynamics to serve its own ends and tainting the truly authentic by association?

All that said, and despite saying that it could be argued that the spinning world is already a commercial sub-culture, I don't think it is, quite. I would be very surprised if the spinning community was ever in and of itself a commercial sub-culture the way "grunge" was all the rage in the fashion world years ago. Though the spinning community is certainly part of a larger sub-culture (that would also include Burning Man enthusiasts, for example) that could very well be. There's an interesting thread on Tribe.net in the Burning Man group that is exactly this conversation, only about Burning Man attendees being the target market.

I don't know if this can be avoided. Spinners -- even if they learn in community and don't pay someone to teach them -- are going to want toys to play with. Sure we can make our own fire poi and sock poi and the more enterprising of us can make LED poi even. But the fact is, the existence of the community itself creates a market, if not for already assembled toys, then for the supplies one would need to make the toys.

I think I've gone on long enough. ubbloco


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Written by: Devil - D


Conclusion: everyone likes to consume?



To a degree, yes. It almost can't be helped.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by:
Setting aside the issue of building a business on the selling of poi lessons wink , there are plenty of other poi-related businesses already. This website, for one. While the forums here are a truly great community and the free videos are a useful learning tool, it could also be argued that they're marketing techniques to establish 'brand loyalty' to Home of Poi and its retail arm.



But it could also be argued that they're here because Home of Poi are voluntarily contributing to the spinning community in general. In the larger companies you mentioned, like Nike and Coca Cola, you'll often only see these gestures with one motive behind them: improving the company's own reputation and persuading people to buy more of their produce. As we've learned from Home of Poi, Home of Poi has no doubt learned from us: not just about what we want to buy, but about mutual respect between the company and the community.

Written by:
And while I, like many others it seems, am very very excited for the forthcoming Illuminati poi, the posting of the videos and the 'chatter' about them amounts to a viral marketing campaign, even though the makers and promoters may not have framed it in those terms. Or is that an example of marketing (in the bad capitalist global domination way) appropriating authentic community dynamics to serve its own ends and tainting the truly authentic by association?



I see how could be percieved as such. The examples which first sprung to my mind were those of music artists or their labels releasing previews of songs or albums over filesharing networks, because although such sharing is often illegal, they knew it give the artists the kind of promotion which is unrivalled by use of the usual mediums - and for free.

If I hadn't reently spoken to PK about Illuminati, I wouldn't know much about these poi apart from the the Illuminati Introductory Information written by Jo and the accompanying videos. Even then, the only part I'd even vaguely consider as hype would be this:

Written by:
The Illuminati, translated to "bearers of the light", were an underground cult founded in the 1700s by Adam Weishaupt, a Jesuit Priest and Freemason. They were believed to possess supernatural powers due to their advanced sciences and technologies, and they were (and are) thought to have widespread influence in all governments and industries.

Illuminati has also been spoken of in the old testament, referring to "Lumen", derived from "Lucifer" and an ancient "Angel of light".

More recently, a faction has started to form in Sheffield, England. This manifestation specialises in the design, manufacture, and use of technologically advanced juggling equipment.



Now you might even think this constituted ego, which has also been a recent popular topic on this forum, but I think it's actually an accurate analogy of the Illuminati project. The rest of the information is technical. As well as this, the videos of Illuminati poi which have been released speak for themselves and at greater volumes than the text introduction.

I think this is where larger companies have missed the boat. When you see a huge roadside billboard with, for example, a "NIKE" swoosh and a sport player in action on it, does it mean anything to you?

Is it just something to look at on a slow bus or car journey? Do you find yourself more about how the advert was produced rather than how important it is to buy more Nike products, or maybe, despite the size of the billboard, how the logo and image only takes up a fraction of the space?

I do - but I take it as a good sign. I'd rather see the space used for something relevant to the community, like an advert for the local school fete biggrin

Written by: Devil - D

Conclusion: everyone likes to consume? Even if you're anti - commercial?



It that it depends how far you take it. Everyone consumes whether they like it or not: air, water, food - it helps keeps us alive.

The difference is to what extent people allow their lives to be seen as a market, if at all. While our personal space is being crowded by marketing which is largely irrelevant to us, I think we should be angry about it and let it be known. This kind of action had been proved to be still effective on markets, because wherever possible, people still refrain from giving money to those who don't give respect in return. You might even say it's human - I know that here, the stereotypical British attitude about complaining as soon as something goes wrong is an unlikely, but hugely helpful factor in this ubblol So we're not completely powerless yet smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Written by: Spanner

But it could also be argued that they're here because Home of Poi are voluntarily contributing to the spinning community in general. In the larger companies you mentioned, like Nike and Coca Cola, you'll often only see these gestures with one motive behind them: improving the company's own reputation and persuading people to buy more of their produce. As we've learned from Home of Poi, Home of Poi has no doubt learned from us: not just about what we want to buy, but about mutual respect between the company and the community.





Yes, I concur. That's what makes HoP a model of an ethical business that treats its community like a community rather than a market. I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that regardless of how a company conducts itself in such matters, the very fact that money is exchanged makes it commercial.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4991
Posted:Written by: blueboy

And while I, like many others it seems, am very very excited for the forthcoming Illuminati poi, the posting of the videos and the 'chatter' about them amounts to a viral marketing campaign, even though the makers and promoters may not have framed it in those terms. Or is that an example of marketing (in the bad capitalist global domination way) appropriating authentic community dynamics to serve its own ends and tainting the truly authentic by association?



If you view it that way that would be your own opinion!, not knowing the whole story behind illuminati, who created them, why they were created.. confused

The video is hosted by me! [ for free ubblove], i designed their website [for free ubblove], i designed their company logo! [ for free ubblove] and do you know why? confused because i love my friend, i love the community here.... I wanted people to see what Jo has designed... spent 10 months building a buisness from nothing, having to pay a mortgage and support himself for 10 months, with no job! ubbangel hes a [censored] saint! and you know what it's all going to be worth it in the end... but im not going to mention the ammount of money this has cost him so far!.. rolleyes you wouldn't wish to know.


hop is a commodity, we are self thinking individuals, what runs this site? the shop!.. hops new distribution center.. hops pulling in some dollars to make that happen... and where do we chill out .. in the forums of a shop online!.
Beamingballs LTD says it all!... a site derived from a product.. though recently turned to homeofpoi LTD..

it all around us there will be no escape, were all victims of some one trying to sell us things..


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Orbit
SILVER Member since Dec 2003

Orbit

enthusiast


Total posts: 270
Posted:In the interest of full disclosure... I have a degree in business, focused on marketing, and have worked in marketing for more than 5 years.

[BEGIN LONG RAMBLE]

The way I often think about marketing is simple. Figure out what customers want. Figure out if you can make it and sell it for the price the customer is willing to pay. Make it and make it accessible to your customers. Tell them you have what they want and how to find it.

People often get confused and think that the part they see most of marketing - advertising, and specifically advertising by HUGE companies like Nike, Coke, McDonald's... that THAT is marketing. People often mistake "hype" for advertising.

Just because a big company does it doesn't mean that it's the right thing for you. Big companies aim for big markets, and the scale of their business means that they need to do things in certain ways... it's cheaper PER UNIT for them to do something, but they sell a heck of a lot of units. So they also have money to do things like advertise in ways that make absolutely no sense to people who are not their size. In these same companies, though, designing a box can cost a ridiculous amount of money -- because they have to worry about a lot more details that drive up the cost. But again, they sell a million of those boxes, so in the end it's not much per box. For these guys, they can afford to spend ridiculous amounts of money to worry about advertising in ways that smaller companies wouldn't even consider... and they HAVE to do this, because if they don't stay in the mass consumer's face, they don't sell as many of their product -- product that they have actually ALREADY MADE (unless you're Dell) because they've had to put it on all the thousands of shelves.

The relationship that companies have with their customers is an important one. For smaller businesses like HOP, it's important to offer services that the customer values. It builds good will, makes it harder for the competitors, and helps you to stay in touch with your customers. Relationships are just as important for big companies, but in very different ways. To them, their direct customers are actually the retail shops and maybe distribution companies that they sell to. So they actually spend a lot of effort and money on those relationships. Their relationship with you, the consumer (and indirect customer) is one that can't be as intimate (because there are millions of you rather than hundreds or thousands) and so they use advertising, and they rely on the retailers to manage this relationship (and may indeed choose retailers based on the types of relationships they have with their customers).

Oops. Wandered a bit off course there... but basically, even if you choose not to be part of the mass market culture, you're a consumer. You may not choose to consume as much (maybe only buy 1 pair of shoes instead of 5, 10, or 100). Maybe you use other factors, such as environmental friendliness or healthiness, to help you make your decisions. Companies may see that, and choose to try appealing to that aspect of your decision making-- but whether you believe them or not is still up to you. Their ads may just confuse you enough that you end up buying their product. Deciding who you believe and/or trust on that front is hard.

PK: For most people, making your own clothing doesn't make sense. For one thing, it costs a lot more. Assuming you know HOW, it will take you a lot of time. You've basically just shifted your business from the clothing manufacturer to the fabric shop - a shop that may or may not be marketing itself to people like you.

In the end, people are social animals. What we wear, what we smoke (and whether we smoke at all -- and I mean the brand of cigarettes, because I would never advocate on a public forum that people smoke anything illegal, silly!), where we like to spend our time, and what we like to do -- these are all things that MAY help us to identify with a social group. Our desire to belong is one of the things that a business may or may not choose to take advantage of or advertise to. But they may also appeal to other needs or wants that you have. They might try to sell to you based on sex (as in ooh, that model's hot... what's that she's doing with those poi?) or hunger (food good!) or some other desires as well.

I could go on for ever (oops, may already have) but the point is, it's all very complicated, and a lot of people like to oversimplify. In many ways, I think critics and advertisers alike often give too much credit to the power of advertising. Will it control your mind? Make you want to buy something you REALLY didn't want to buy? Probably not. Will it steer you towards something you might have considered buying? Yeah. Will it make you buy something earlier than you meant to? Spend more than you meant to? Yeah. But if it wasn't on this thing, it might have been something else (like maybe what you like to smoke, maybe some nice socks to make poi with, maybe some Illuminati poi if you have that much money to spend).

[END OF RAMBLE]


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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4991
Posted:were all fuct then!!! theres no way out.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Same as Dostoevskiy


Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...

Total posts: 54
Posted:Written by: pk ....:™

were all victims of some one trying to sell us things..




how true...


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Written by: pk ....:

Written by: blueboy

And while I, like many others it seems, am very very excited for the forthcoming Illuminati poi, the posting of the videos and the 'chatter' about them amounts to a viral marketing campaign, even though the makers and promoters may not have framed it in those terms. Or is that an example of marketing (in the bad capitalist global domination way) appropriating authentic community dynamics to serve its own ends and tainting the truly authentic by association?



If you view it that way that would be your own opinion!, not knowing the whole story behind illuminati, who created them, why they were created.. confused



pk (& everyone on HoP, for that matter):

Just for the record, I was not casting aspersions. It's true that I don't know you or Jo, but I'm thrilled that someone is taking glotoys to the next level. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you guys for pulling this off, and I can't wait to buy a set. I fully understand (well, I can imagine anyway) the amount of work that went into this project and yes -- of course promotion is necessary and of course you want to share the product with the community it was designed for. I was merely pointing out that in fretting over the spinning community becoming a commercial sub-culture, it can be argued that we are one already. Gatorade may not be marketing directly to firespinners but still.

I'd like to also point out that many large companies do market directly to the skater world (as in skateboarders, not figure skaters). That whole thing, like contemporary spinning as we all practice it, started with small gatherings of friends and like-minded others sharing tricks and tips and over time grew into a large sub-culture that the mainstream culture came to be aware of. It didn't destroy the skating scene though, and I don't think it'll destroy the spinning world either. If anything, having a little economy spring up around the spinning world will only support endeavors like the Illuminati poi and whatever new innovations are down the road that are just ideas rattling around in some spinners' heads right now.

But I think what it comes down to is that money really is the root of all evil. But that's a whole other conversation.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Same as Dostoevskiy

Written by: pk ....:™

were all victims of some one trying to sell us things..


how true...



I don't have such a pessimistic view of money. I'm glad I don't have to lug around beaver pelts every time I want to trade them for a taco.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:There is an alternative, people have survived in america without buying anything, or having anything bought for them for years. It is possible and it has been done. You just have to be resourceful, and rather hardcore. And it's not freeloading. It's just a complete unwillingness to take part in a capitalist machine. (and a willingness to compromise some on what and when you eat)

Just cos we have a democracy, doesn't mean we have to have a capitalist economy. FOr a long time, I forgot that.

And the main reason I dislike capitalism? Cos it's going to force me to work, just to survive. (Cos I'm not willing to go to the lengths it takes to survive without working) And everything is owned. Even the ground I stand on. Does that seem right to you?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Orbit
SILVER Member since Dec 2003

Orbit

enthusiast


Total posts: 270
Posted:Meg,

Sorry to be cheeky, but what you're saying is that you don't want to work, but you expect others to do work?!?

Maybe money isn't the ROOT of all evil... maybe it's just a mechanism that we use to STORE the harsh evil aspects of living in the real world?!?

Anyhow... you can choose not to work, but how will you then be able to get the resources (other people's work, products, whatever) that you want/need to get? How will your kids eat?

Before y'all harsh on me too much... I've been unemployed for 2 1/2 years and pretty much just spinning poi and travelling... in part because of being disenchanted with "the system" so I'm in it far worse that you -- especially you lot that can at least claim student status. I just can't see how you can talk about things as if they're really going to change...


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:I dont think she said that at all.

I thought what meg said was that there are people in the world that dont take part in a capitalist society because they object to having thier lives controlled by an economy.

People grow their own food orbit. They can make thier own clothes too. They trade for what they dont have. Its ironic I think that you think this is so impossible when there are people in the world that have to do this because of the way capitalism has destroyed their economy and forced them into poverty so that we can have instant coffee and chocolate.

I think i agree with blueboy/pk and the others. We spinners are a market already. I need a new staff. I bought one. I wanted another one so i made it.

Supply and Demand.

as an aside. i dont do poi. but i saw the clip and heard the rumors about the iluminati. and i want a pair smile


Love is the law.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: ado-p

as an aside. i dont do poi.



liar wink


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Orbit
SILVER Member since Dec 2003

Orbit

enthusiast


Total posts: 270
Posted:ado-p, so what you're saying is that Meg should work even harder... on growing food and other tasks that specialists have figured out how to do more efficiently...

I agree on one level... it's not an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't think you need to live on a commune in order to resist the mass media/consumption machine.

As for democracy... well I know it's probably a different thread, but lately I've had my doubts about democracy... the tyranny of the majority and all that. The way this country is going I'll probably get put on a blacklist for writing that and sent to some McCarthy-esque hearing...


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