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Disc0


annoying boy
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 160
Posted:i'm wondering about the "free lessons" on HOP. they are really good, but now there is a problem. i've learnt all the moves (and some others) so i came to ask myself: have they ever been updated? is there any possibility they will be updated again? since there are a lot of talented people and move-descriptions out there someone maby vould put them together with animated gifs... they really halp when learning!

biggrin


fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:well, 'a move' is a description of a particular movement

you don't have to move in ways that have been described to you

whether or not moves exist depends on what you mean by 'exist'

shrug



Oh, and if you split a move in half, you get two moves, not two halves of a move.

This means that with only a small amount of mental agility, you can perform a near infinite number of moves in a short space of time smile



Want more free lessons? Mot's Place kicks ass.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Face_NL
PLATINUM Member since Sep 2002

Face_NL

addict
Location: Netherlands - Breda

Total posts: 513
Posted:Eeh you were one step ahead of me Simian smile, Mot Rulez bounce2 <<and spherculism isn't that bad either smile>>

and about the moves-discussion... Are you guys actually serious about yourselves umm? Ahh well, maybe I'm to simpleminded...


|| "Is True Mastery of the Elements But a Dream?" ||

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:"If a picture speaks a thousand words, then what of the moving image"

Those gifs are tiny, flash files could be even smaller, file size wize.

Bandwidth ca't be the problem because all the arguments that go on round here trying to explain a 'move' uses far more bandwidth than a little vid file.

I'm guessing it's for monetary reasons, the more you give away for free, the less you can sell.

I find it bizarre tho. I sent Malcolm an animated gif of 'Split time Hi and Lo turns' I highlighted the beats, wrote a description for each beat, said exactly where it fit into the hop lessons, and optimised it nicely and he never uploaded it ~ very odd.

I also offered to make a kick ass tutorial site for Hop ~ Cheap. Again he wasn't up for it, which is very fortunate for all you spherculists out there wink

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Sssssssssshhhhhhhh!

umm

coughcoughplugcoughplugcoughcough.

wave


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Disc0


annoying boy
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 160
Posted:i'm actually with you there poipoipoi... (picture a small baby named"poipoipoi"
it's probably because they will sell less instruction-vids if they made everything free.... sad.. but it's their decision...

anyway: thanks for links!


fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"picture a small baby named "poipoipoi""


ubblol ubblol


Getting to the other side smile

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:Written by: Nx?


flow isnt a move? are we reaching some kind of comprimise?



Moves exist but they dont have to?







Flow isn't a move for the reasons i stated in the post above yours...

Moves exist but you don't have to do them... they are basic (meaning fundamental, rather than easy) patterns, generally symmetrical and excelent for demonstrating concepts. Flow comes from understanding the concepts and mixing them up how you like.



And Telpeva Isil, yes i am serious, this whole 'moves don't exist' thing is always used when people say they've learned all the moves in the tutorials, and what next?, and is no help at all to the questioner. This is far better advice, and probably should be tutorial 29, or made sticky or something.



--ben


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Leif
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Leif

member
Location: College Station, Texas

Total posts: 56
Posted:We have a set of tutorials that we have posted in an attempt to take the HOP lessons to the next level. We have some work we need to do with them still and are going to try to extend them beyond where they are. There are a good bit of moves on (maybe 20+) there though. The link is http://www.tamingfire.com/tutorials.html


What else can I say? TamingFire.Com

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I agree with tenticle - there are "moves" in poi. Certain things are well defined and definitely deserve the status of a move - the weave, butterflies etc. But that's not to say that defining moves somehow limits poi - that's just silly. The weave is a move, but it can be done in a million different ways and then there are another million things that share fundamental characteristics with the weave and can be called a type of weave - but we're just talking about one subset of the potential ways of spinning. If you're against the idea of a move then it seems to me that they're saying that defining things stops them from thinking "outside the box" (ugh wink).

Moves are just a handy way to talk about what we do. And in fact it can be very useful in coming up with new possibilities by combining different named ideas i.e. isolation + weave = isolated weave. So not only is it sensible in terms of communication, it can even be a help to creativity smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Analemma


Analemma

enthusiast
Location: West LA

Total posts: 384
Posted:Im with Nx and mr. stout. Moves are not specific. They are concepts and can be seen as a language of Poi. Without defined terms it would be extremely hard to communicate and discuss our ideas. But like with every language it is constantly changing and can as well become limiting.
IMO more advanced instructions would be good, but tutorials that focus on the basics more would then be necessary too.

hug2

andy


To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .

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Face_NL
PLATINUM Member since Sep 2002

Face_NL

addict
Location: Netherlands - Breda

Total posts: 513
Posted:I'm with Spiralx angel2...



ow, and -> New tutorials?? I haven't seen those from tamingfire before, appears quite nice! Gonna check them out today!


|| "Is True Mastery of the Elements But a Dream?" ||

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:Written by: PoiBoxII

Im with Nx and mr. stout. Moves are not specific. They are concepts and can be seen as a language of Poi. Without defined terms it would be extremely hard to communicate and discuss our ideas. But like with every language it is constantly changing and can as well become limiting.



Moves are not specific? If you say do a 3 beat weave to someone, you know what they're going to do. The concept embodied by '3 beat weave' is something like 'a split-time same-direction pattern made by each poi doing 2 beats(counted at the top of the circle) on the crossed over side, and 1 beat on the same side, with the poi on the same side leading through the transitions.' Which is somewhat unweildy. It is precicly the defining of terms that causes that term to embody the concept you are trying to explain, and hence make it exist to peoples understanding. Easy communication of difficult concepts is what language is for... Which is what you then go on to say.
It is the changing of language that causes the limitations... if people start using the wrong names, effectivly talking in a different language, noone understands each other... A properly defined language is never limiting, it does as spiralx says and allows you to mix concepts together to easily explain ever more complex ideas.

--ben


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Move is just such a hard to define term, check it out in a dictionary.

The method we tend to agree on for defining moves is almost entirely arbitary.

I prefer the term Pattern instead of Move. But it doesn't really matter what word everyone uses just so long as everyone knows what everyone else is talking about.

Mots vids are great, so are the taming fire ones ~ sph'ism ain't too bad either smile You'll understand poi far better if you discover stuff for yourself tho. Just look at what you're doing, don't just see it, actually look at what is happening around you.

And no ones that badass at poi. It's not nearly as hard to do most of the stuff as you might think. I don't consider anything of sph'ism to be beyond beginner level. I see it as the alphabet and grammar of poi. Mastering the poetry of it is another thing entirely.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:" Mastering the poetry of it is another thing entirely " now that's where I'm at, I even going to start a thread about this in the help section. I feel I've learned enough moves ( and I too, prefer the term pattern ) and would rather put my time and effort into developing my "flow".

Having said that I still have to figure out the anti spin thing while turning my longarm flowers because someone on this site I can't remember who said the antispin does make a difference visually. I'm almost there, I can turn without the antispin,, gimme another few weeks.

And as to tutorials, one thing I would like to see is clips not only defining a move but showing the transitions into ,and, out of it, as well as things that can be done with the move once one has got it down. I put up a posting on Taming Fire about this,,,they did ask for input.

I visit all the sites mentioned above, on a daily basis but never mentioned them by name figuring I'd let the owners do that. There's gold there and I sure appreciate the efforts of all connected to those sites..Thank you


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Disc0


annoying boy
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 160
Posted:leif! i really like your site! it's clean. beautiful. it got great vids. it got tutorials with the pattern animation+description. smile

it seems to me the discussion about "is thee moves?" has been brought up a few times before (i'm just guessing). what have people said in the previos discussions? is there ever new arguments?


fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:you are all nuts but thats why i love you all ;

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:I think that is good how Poi lessons look like. For me its not enough. I know and do them all, but for those who begin its enough.You get picture of way to continue and depend on you how you will continue. I do and it is fine smile

POI THEO(R)IST

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:Disc0, people generally bicker for a while then call each other elitist and go off and sulk for a bit. We seem to still be on existentialism and semantics, which is probably a good sign...

--ben


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Disc0


annoying boy
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 160
Posted:ben. please take that once more, and in english. since i'm from sweden and not verw confident with the english language, i don't have a ****** clue of what "semantic" means. bicker and existentialism was not a problem though....

fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Semantic mean st. like significance, I think, like the point of the thing and it is smile

POI THEO(R)IST

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Disc0


annoying boy
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 160
Posted:ok, thx

fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:Semantics is the study of meaning in symbols and signs, and the relationships between the symbol and the meaning, (or basicly, the study of language.)
Unfortunatly, most people see arguing about semantics as a pointless, but in a text based conversation with no body language, especialy an international one, it becomes important to say what you mean and be understood... It becomes even more important when explaining new ideas, as you have to build a picture in the listeners/readers mind from parts they already know, and if people start using the wrong words or misunderstanding the words used by others, the discussion collapses and people get tetchy.

--ben


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:THAT'S SO TRUE!

that's why about a year ago i reluctantly became a nazi around here because the boards were turning into a big mess and people were being driven apart, and misunderstandings abounded, and schisms between people started...

and time wasted talking in circles...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: arashi

THAT'S SO TRUE!




How do you define 'true'? There is no truth.

wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:yeah i thought so too when i was a newbie. but there ARE absolutes, like

"arashi's arse i so hot you could light a kerosene wick with it"


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:There is rhythm and life smile

POI THEO(R)IST

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goagirl


newbie
Location: scherpenheuvel

Total posts: 18
Posted:yes i found some !
the list
http://wwwmotsplace.com/poi/list.html
br>
have fun
bounce weavesmiley bounce


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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:hmmmm... moves are what you learn first and provide you with the basics of poi movement and theory, once you have these you can start thinking about the concepts underlying them and from then on you could say 'there are no moves'

Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:as someone whos not been spinning for ages i go with Unattractive Cranky Old Freud its much more fun to just pick up my poi and do what i can with the few basic moves ive got - i spent 2 or so hours today just messing about working on planes and a few simple patterns.

oh and if you really want to make what your doing with your poi clear we should start talking with maths and use 3x3 matrixes :P it'll be very clear exactly what you do but youll need a Phd in maths to understand it :P (then again with some of the threads you need a Phd in english and jargon anyway)

maths is the ultimate language as there is no ambiguity - well less than english
*grins*


back

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Ardarian


Ardarian

newbie


Total posts: 15
Posted:I agree with Disc0 exactly. It's not that studying other movies and such isn't a possibility, it's that the free lessons section of this site describes the basic moves so fluidly and makes them easier to learn. I'm really trying to get better at this and trying figure out the lingo on this forum so I can understand half of what's being said, (:p) but it's tough for a beginner, especially a beginner with no one else around who spins poi to help him.

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