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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:the fire lilys web site has just had a make over.
please could every one check it out and tell me what you think....please not to harsh...

www.firelilys.com


SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Sym (Previously Toyer90)

since 1994.



That sounds implausible, what's your reasoning/evidence.

I know that only a few years back CSS had issues on numerous browsers, whereas tables tended to be fine on them.

--------------

The official line is that CSS is the way to go, and the way that the web as a whole is going; as it enables a total separation between content and style.

However, tables have worked well for many years and a lot of people know how to get the best out of them and understand all the little tricks and tweaks that make them work well.

For me the most appealing aspect of style sheets is that all pages of a site can be linked to one css file that, when edited, modifies each page in the site (eg changing the background colour and fonts), which saves a lot of time if you want to overall the entire site.

As for all the other aspects of CSS, if people want to use it then fine, but, equally, if some people don't want to put in the considerable learning time necessary to make full use of CSS, and want to stick to what they know well (HTML, tables etc), then why not?

For me the beauty of the web was that it was open to all- anyone who learnt some HTML could publish to it; it was a vast free source of information.

Now there's so much pressure to use all the new gimmicks, threats of making more and more of the old style well known HTML commands invalid. It's become standard for companies to offer free useful stuff like image compression formats and movie players, then push and push till they become seen as standards and indispensible- at which point the credit cards become necessary (eg 'Realplayer').

Adware, spyware, viruses, virtually unremovable malware, sites that don't work unless you lower your IE security settings, ridicule of sites that are seen as 'basic', 'unstylish' (regardless of the fact that they are fast-loading and packed with usefull info).

The web is for everyone (or it was), and it's us who decide where it's going to go.

Would you prefer it to be inclusive, publishable to by all, informative and safe.

Or do you want it to be a multimedia extravaganza, more flash than content, run by an exclusive minority and only safe to surf if you've bought the latest pop-up blocker/ad/spy/mal ware protection software?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: pk ....:

i actually disagree, we as "the community" have our own websites, i think general discussion on website building is a good topic as any of the bullshit thats posted in social here.





I agree totally with PK about it being fine to discuss coding here.

We're in the 'serious' social discussion section- IMO it's totally appropriate, for the following reasons: -

1. We're a community, there's trust here. While it's true there are communities devoted to discussing coding, many prefer it here because going elsewhere requires sometimes lengthy registration (remembering yet another password/username) and the possibility you'll be ripped to shreds because you're an outsider and they are elitist.

2. People here are not just spinners, there's loads of life experience and other skills, including coding and many opinions on coding issues.

3. Many HOP-ers wouldn't frequent coding sites, yet will happilly browse a HOP coding thread- they'll learn something new and possibly follow some links to more specialised sites.

As long as we're staying on topic and the thread starter doesn't object then IMO, it's fine.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:i totally agree with almost every thing thats been posted so far!.



My appologies to "native" for this thread turning out like this! but i find it's a good example of how we as a community can help each other in other interests resources that we know about and or participate in.



Question?: the fire lilys web site has just had a make over.

please could every one check it out and tell me what you think....please not to harsh...



Answer!: All of the above... every post is logically lead back to the question... in no way has this gone off topic, were morally discussing ways and means to make the said site improved.



We here are skilled! in many different ways, some know more than others but that doesnt matter when its a "discussion". A lot can be learned from this thread, yeah once all the banter is out of the way its all good and plain sailing from hereon-in.



What browser doesnt support CSS? common we all know how to upgrade software!... their all free to install? so even the latest browsers will support CSS, and if your too poor to upgrade from your windows 9x OS.... beg on the streets, or ask on the board to see if any one can donate to a good cause. Damn i just posted a g-force 2mx graphics card to Flynt cos she needed one!, Dom once donated me a 2 speed cd burner which im eternally greatful for ever since; how ever nice my 8 speed dvd burner is right now, i thank him for his generousity in the past and being a good and supporting friend during my years here on hop.



Definitions of community:



Also known as "interest groups," communities are groups of people who share a common interest and communicate with each other about that interest (through a community Web page, chat, Newsgroups, or e-mail).



The assemblage of populations of plants and animals that interact with each other and their environment. The community is shaped by populations and their geographic range, the types of areas they inhabit, species diversity, species interactions, and the flow of energy and nutrients through the community.



An online or virtual gathering place for people with similar interests (e.g., professional, social or demographic) to engage in two-way communication and share ideas, knowledge, information and opinions. A community is made up of one or more forums.





A constantly changing group of people collaborating and sharing their ideas over an electronic network (Internet). Communities optimise their collective power by affiliation around a common interest, by the compression of the time between member interaction (i.e. real-time communication), and by asynchronous 'postings' which potentially reach more participants and allow for more reflection time than real-time interactions.





*on topic*


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Written by: pk ....:

So i was sat watching some new stuff on scene.org the other week and thinking how sweet it would be to have a site running graphics like what you see on that site, thing is that they are so powerful thet they run on your system resources, one coincidently shut my PC down the other night!, they would have to run server side, could you imagine some thing that would drain the censored out of your serve?? lol would be fun to try and do it. Any challengers?.
yay for css'd cms.



Hmm, mebbe it because I can't look at the source code, but what pictures are you talking about? It's possible to create an image server side, GDI+ is great for this. You could even insert text from a db or xml file into the pic, or draw your own. Change the mime headers and send the pic down as a binary stream. Server intensive tho..Still not sure if this is what u mean?


Written by: onewheeldave

As for all the other aspects of CSS, if people want to use it then fine, but, equally, if some people don't want to put in the considerable learning time necessary to make full use of CSS, and want to stick to what they know well (HTML, tables etc), then why not?




Cos it's new and cool!! seriously tho, I'm working on a design for a new site, mebbe I should do the entire thing in CSS, just to try it out. Still worried about the different CSS implementations, some browsers dont support more than CSS1. I don't think it will be that considerable of a learning curve tho. Also, it's not always as much pressure to use gimmicks, leest for me, as much to have new tools at your disposal. It does suck when an industry standard turns into an advertising channel(ala realplayer and others), but it's nice to be able to hit a larger number of people with said technology, at least until you cannot trust them anymore to not bundle adware.


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Written by:
All CSS site, and some nice Accessability features: http://www.hollyoaks.com/





Nice! very clean design..Did you work on this??


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:No, that weren't me so wasn't bragging.

Maybe we should rebuild HoP using just CSS. hmmmm

And my version of PIE definitly doesn't suport even CSS1.


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Written by: Dom

Maybe we should rebuild HoP using just CSS




It's not far off it at the moment.

All the menu is layed out using CSS, it's just the UBB threads stuff that isn't. Forums are tricky when talking about pure CSS as the data could be considered tabular. If it is then using CSS for layout is wrong, but it has to be done well for screen reader/mobile use.


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:at the moment hop takes a crazily long time to load on my nokia with opera due to the navigation... just thought id mention that.
the baord also displays weirdly to poiinthepark but thats when i had an install of nuke running.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Written by: Dom

No, that weren't me so wasn't bragging.

Maybe we should rebuild HoP using just CSS. hmmmm

And my version of PIE definitly doesn't suport even CSS1.



I dunno, I wouldn't consider it bragging if it was..I'd love to see some sites that other ppl on here have developed.


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:ok i dont underswtand the computer talk

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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arsn


arsn

How do you change this thing???
Location: Behind the couch...

Total posts: 1903
Posted:Written by: bluecat

geeks.

hug



I second this... hug


I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:thanx now i dont feal so alone ubblol

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by:
since 1994.



rubbish! You've clearly never used unix! Lynx has been around for like ever, is the standard browser on almost all *nix machines and is still being developed. It has no CSS support.

People still develop using it in mind too. news.bbc.co.uk looks great in IE, and great in lynx.

Personally, if you're just making a small site thou, I wouldn't bother about designing for any browser other than IE. Most people have access to a machine with IE on even if it's not their preferred browser.


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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:ok ie and all those other word hurt my head... what happend to its a nice pic or its a crappy pic...DAMIT speak so i can understand!!!!!!! frown

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Written by: flid


You've clearly never used unix! Lynx has been around for like ever







Ehem, I will reply to this in full when i get home from work, but I would like to point out that I said I would redesign PK's site from tables in to XHTML styled with CSS and test it on Lynx.



CSS WAS first thought up in 1994, although things like it had been about for a while before it. The W3C defined CSS1 in 1999 though, so I was not 100% right in saying 1994.



The point is that if you have a good XHTML document it will work on anything with varying degrees of design implementation.



IF anything, A CSS layed out page should work better. Anyway, the question was since when was it better, my point was that it has been better from it's concept.


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:Written by: Sym (Previously Toyer90)

I would like to point out that I said I would redesign PK's site from tables in to XHTML styled with CSS and test it on Lynx.




Which site? confused


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Oops - Sorry that was Dom...! (See 6th post down on page 2)

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:running 1280x1024 full screen ... still on page 1 here!

no worries.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:SHUT UP!!!!!!! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!! I DONT UNDERSTAND ...I ASKED IF PEOPLE LIKED THE WEB SITE OR NOT.. NOT IF IT NEEDS C++ OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT...YOU ALL MAKE MY HEAD HURT!!!!

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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fiendish


fiendish

Member
Location: astateofinhibition

Total posts: 51
Posted:Poor native hug hug hug
Me too have sore head after reading all that comp talk.
I thiink your site was really cool , sure the scrolling was a bit inconvenient but the pics were heaps cool and I loved your fire lily pic.


"Aaah fire. Scourge of Prometheus,toaster of marshmallows & irradicator of small children..." SideshowBob.

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:thank you so much.. that is what i was looking for not the computer talk if ya know what i meen smile

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:well with out you paying attention to this web design talk, your going to have a website thats pretty much as bad as they come...

have you checked out the widths of the tables that make up the page???? [thats why i pasted the code FOR YOU!!!! TO USE!!!].

as it is i wouldn't view the site.. if it was made better i would probably take another look.

at the end of the day were all only trying to help you out!, non of this was brain surgery, you only needed to read a couple of posts. Ignore anything about CSS, that wouldn't be applicable to you.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Delete

native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:i dont know how to code or anything like that i did it threw yahoo small buissness and they did every thing i dont do anything but type where it told me and slect a pic where it told me

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Right and all of us who know about the code and stuff you don't know about are trying to help you.

There is a reason why people pay for web sites, and that reason is that they get what they pay for. I don't like the design of your site as it is, but I do like the idea of it.

As for the code behind it (the stuff that yahoo made for you) Its terrible. Youre not to know this, but it breaks on most computer setups. (IE: Windows XP using Internet Explorer 6.1 if youre interested). I havent tested the code PK posted, but that is a huge step in the right direction.

I am arguing that the final step is for you to separate the design from the content (IE: the background images and colours and stuff from the actual text) using two things called XHTML and CSS. Dont worry about the acronyms, all you need to know is that it will make your web site more accessible to search engines, people with disabilities and people on less-common browsers.

I have remade your site using this method. I know its not 100% but it should give you an idea of what Im talking about.

Go to:
http://www.hannybug.com/firelilys/index.html
br>And
http://www.hannybug.com/firelilys/index-nocss.html
br>
The 2nd one is the same document just without the link to the file that lays out the page. This is close to what people on mobiles and the computers that add sites to search engines will see.


Please note that this is just my argument, and other people will probably disagree. I know you dont know about code, but please listen to us that do (even though were splitting hairs from your point of view). You shouldnt keep your site as it is. Try out PKs code, try out mine. If you dont know how to try them, Im sure PK will be happy to send you the table based site he made, as I will with the CSS site.

(PK, if not Ill put it together)


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Can we cut the shouting out please guys?



PK, I suspect that Native doesn't know what to do with your code.



Native, as PK said, the 'tech' talk was sincerely attempting to address your question- you didn't say in your original post that you were very much a beginner at web design.



Unfortunately, there's very little useful feedback possible on the design specifics if you're a complete beginner; but I'll have a go.



First, doing it through "yahoo small buissness" is not going to give you a decent site; if you want a good site either learn the basics of HTML, get a decent web design program (maybe Dreamweaver) or get someone else to do your site for you.



The first two options will require a learning committment from you.



The scrolling issue is not a minor one- like PK says, he's not going to look at your site if it involves horizontal scrolling; neither would I as-



a. it's annoying to have to scroll horizontally

b. there's no point- any site which involves horizontal scrolling is badly designed, so it's safe to assume other aspects of it will be too.



The good news is that if you do decide to make the committment to learning



1. HTML (advantages- no need for a software design package, intimate understanding of your site from the 'bones' up, no junk (javascript/activeX inserted by the aformentioned software- disadvantages- HTML sites tend to look 'basic')



or



2. A decent web design package (advantages- 'stylish'/trendy look, disadvantages- necessity for buying a package, some issues with lack of control over the final product)



Then, in addition to getting a web site, you'll have the satisfaction of learning some quite fascinating stuff.



Web design essentials-



1. quick loading pages

2. excellent navigation

3. images suitably compressed (quick loading)

4. easy to maintain- a million sites are out there, born in a flash of enthusiasm and glory, then never altered/updated again



I advise keeping it simple, because, trust me, the hard part of having a decent site is the maintainance of it.



Good luck, and apologies if you were offended by the 'tech' talk, I hope you can see it was well meant.





"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Sym, thanks a lot for your pm about CSS- was most interesting and has sent me off on a quest to learn more.



Previously I knew of its global template possibilities(ability to modify every site page in one go), but following your links and doing searches has revealed that you can get navigation link rollover effects without javascript smile and other useful stuff.



I've posted elsewhere of my hatred for javascript/activeX (cos of their security issues), but, in my heart, always felt they were here to stay, as people like so much the gimmicky stuff possible with them.



Now I think, with the growth in CSS (its being very heavily pushed by those who write the standards for the web), and it's versatility and ability to directly replace javascript; maybe we'll see the end of Javascript/activeX, or at least a substantial reduction.



Thanks.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:OWD, thanks for the positive post. I 2nd everything you said.



Native: Dreamweaver is very good indeed. You should think about learning it. There is a free 30 Day trial you can download. Maybe you should look at it when you have some time off.



Edit: Talking about CSS nav bars - have a look at the nav bar on the CSS design I posted above. Note that it is a unorderd list (<UL>) styled with CSS to get the same look as the images - very flexible indeed.

EDITED_BY: Sym_ (1103378349)


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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