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peles_paynim
peles_paynim

member
Location: the fascist states of amerika
Member Since: 12th Dec 2004
Total posts: 80
Posted:hey all...i spin poi and am a big believer in shake off cans...occasionally we spin with some staffers as well...i've never seen a staffer use a shake off can and it seems there is a lot of flying fire...is this normal?! does anyone have some info i could share? peles_pyre@hotmail.com

real eyes
realize
real lies

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Lavatwilight
Lavatwilight

old hand
Location: Wellington somerset, UK
Member Since: 11th Aug 2004
Total posts: 834
Posted:what is a shake off can?



way to do the burn off with the staff is to spin in very quickly (not round and round) but along the axel so all the excess fuel sprays off and fire balls....

is that what you mean?

EDITED_BY: Lavatwlight (1102881568)


Drawings by chalk minds, strech between the stars

Kyle Mclean-
Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Try this site for useful info about shake off cans

It even has helpful pictures

http://www.thevenue.org/fuelandenvironment.htm


Love is the law.

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Ifrit
Ifrit

The GF of HoP
Location: Somerset, England
Member Since: 17th Aug 2004
Total posts: 492
Posted:[censored] i should make of those. That site managed to make me feel bad :'( the poor frogs. Thank you peles_paynim for bringing this to my attention. Maybe the instruction on the site should be changed to include this.

fire leads to creation

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Lavatwilight
Lavatwilight

old hand
Location: Wellington somerset, UK
Member Since: 11th Aug 2004
Total posts: 834
Posted:ah i see, not spraying fuel every where, thats acutally a good idea.
I will have to have a look in to that.


Drawings by chalk minds, strech between the stars

Kyle Mclean-
Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:I started twirling fire for the first time 3 nights ago with the 39 inch innercore with 4 inch wicks. I'm experimenting with how much fuel (coleman) I'm shaking off. I'm trying to get a nice spin off, but my throws aren't producing that much of a fire ball, and then I still have some fuel that's spraying in little drops I can feel on my face when I twirl. That I'm not so keen on. Am I not leaving enough fuel or too much? Is it normal to feel fuel droplets?
linda


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Mot
addict
Location: Netherlands
Member Since: 18th May 2002
Total posts: 666
Posted:I'd say that alot of people try and do a burn off too quickly after lighting there staff. You got to let the lamp oil get nice and hot for a big juicy flame. And a low throw, also handy smile

Come forth and thou shalt win enternal happiness. but he came fifth so he won an electric toatser.

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:Linda, it sounds like there's too much fuel, which is why it's not all burning off. Like Mot said, let the wicks burn for a bit, so that the flame gets nice and hot and big. A lot of fuel is burnt during this period. Then spin the stick very very fast along its axis. Sometimes i throw the stick as i do this, but i find if i keep it in front of me (a very small throw) I can spin it much faster, and produce a bigger burn off. Most sticks need about 3 good spins to properly burn off the excess.

Having said that, from an environmental standpoint, i have to go with the shake off cans. Not that i do... Maybe I should...

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Thanks Mot and Mag. I didn't know to let the wicks burn some first, and I think I've been putting more momentum into throwing up then getting spin. Will try this.
linda


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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:There is a huge problem with throwing low! Blowing your face off! I rarely throw low, usually i throw well above my head just out of reach because if you throw it "right" the fire CAN blow down (it follows the spray flying off your staff.) And if you throw it "clean" and also "right" both the fire balls can connect, which means its very hard to catch on its way out of orbit wink and you end out with two massive pulsing fire balls either on your head or in your face. frown

Iv actually had times when the whole handle was (nearly) totally covered on fire, thats why i throw high, so it should burn out before you have to catch it.

I do agree with Mot on warmth, you should wait afew seconds and roll your staff to warm up. But to get a good burn off, your heads should be dripping. Thats the worst thing about burnoff, dripping fuel over the floor.

Here is a pic of an average burn off i did last week. http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=1
br>
I threw the staff about where the fire balls are. It gives it time to rotate and spray more. That burnoff wasn't even clean, thats why the fire balls are about 2 foot appart. If it was clean, the fireballs would be (just about) touching.

Good luck...


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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:Nice pic dude.

"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Wow, that's some balls! eek No I'm not using wicks anywhere close to that wet, I'm shaking a lot off before I start. Tried spinning the staff a lot faster (roll between palms) last night and still no effect, so it must be a lack of fuel-- you're not shaking off at all before the spin off I take it.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Yes! Try pouring fuel on the ends untill its dripping, take it out on grass or concrete and try to spin it real fast. Usually i put the staff on my left hand, put the right hand on top of it and push it away from me and (sort of) throw it up as your pushing it. (Its the most safe way IMO) Even though there is no "proper" way. If you Pull it back toward you, you can miss it or it can fly into your face. censored

The more you spin it the more fuel will fly off, and turn into mist. Its like firebreathing. The more mist there is, the bigger the fire ball. Which is why i throw high, because it will continue to throw more mist the longer its in the air.

There is a balance though... ie you can throw it to high, and you can also spin it to fast (though it will still throw fire). Too fast and you lose control and it can hit you, to high and you might not get enough spin on it to throw and fuel off.

If my i-net connection was working good id put up a vid to show you, but its crashing right now...if it comes back wink ill shoot a demo and put it in here if you like smile


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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:furthermore: as much as possible, throw and *then* spin; this keeps the fire further away from you, and also looks better

ture na sig

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Oh apology's to peles_paynim. I just realized that this thread was not intended as a "how do you blow huge fire balls" thread. Its actually a "save the enviro" thread i think...dayum sorry ubbangel



Umm now we killed/ hijacked the thread should we return to the original topic>? Or continue?

EDITED_BY: Dr4g0n7 (1116213758)


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FlamingOberon
FlamingOberon

ohm mani padme hum
Location: Worcester, MA
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 134
Posted:linda,

also note that it is different with white gas than lamp oil. you dont actually have to let it heat up, seeing as coleman fuel ignites instantaneously as opposed to the lamp oil which takes some time to get going... so dont worry about not waiting to let it warm up...



are you soaking your wicks in a fuel bucket or are you pouring fuel onto the wicks? i am assuming youre soaking them, but just checking...



tips for getting good spin for a good fireball... assuming your right handed, though this can be reversed, i suppose...



put the center of the staff on your left wrist, palm facing up, with your right fingers, palm facing down, just touching the staff. You push your right hand up to roll the staff between your hands as you toss it in the air. Some folks like to toss it high, I like to toss it low, and then when i catch it i catch it witha forceful downward grab, to get justa little more fuel out.



I have about 400 pics from my troups show and practices to sort through, but if there is one of a good fireball I will post it. I will probably be in CT sometime next week, I could hop over to NH to practice with you, if you wanted...



Also, just one more thing, I have noted that it is harder witha thicker staff, and with the innercore, the center of your staff is kinda of squishy and thicker. Think about the amountof work being done.. the skinnier the staff, the more rotations it will do over the span of your palm as opposed to a thicker one. On all of our staves we put medical foam covered by medical tape, so there is a little squishiness but not too much.. recently one member made a staff that is considerably thicker and squishier than most, and he is having a hard time spinning out with it than he does when he borrows someone else's staff... just something to get used to, is all...



EDIT - After going through all the pics I cant find any of a good fireball, though I will double check. It's raining out now, but I can take some photos tomorrow

EDITED_BY: FlamingOberon (1116215934)


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FlamingOberon
FlamingOberon

ohm mani padme hum
Location: Worcester, MA
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 134
Posted:As far as can shakes offs -

Here is a site with a video or staff and poi can shake off techniques:
:
http://www.thevenue.org/firespinning_videos.htm


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d-eye
d-eye

Member
Location: Canberra
Member Since: 5th Mar 2005
Total posts: 60
Posted:One of my better fireball pictures

I was the Photographer not the performer.
They are really hard to get a photo of when there is a slight delay in taking the photo on a digi cam.


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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:I guess I hijacked this thread, but my interest here is in shaking off to not spray fuel on the ground or myself, AND getting fire balls, if that's possible. smile

I am using a can, and it's handy that the innercore comes apart, so I'm dipping and soaking the two ends (yes, FO, not pouring) then whipping them around in a can a few times before putting it back together and lighting up.

I think the last time I tried, I was getting the spin closer to right, but this time hadn't left enough fuel. Didn't get a chance to try again for the rain last night. Yeah, the thick contoured grip makes rolling it between the palms a little funky, it often launches off balance-- so probably good I"m working on that without the excess fuel for now. wink I've still got some fire intimidation to work out.

That's lovely, d-eye! I'm always up for a video, Dr4g0n7 and would be much obliged. FO, Prometheus's magnificent heat radiating fireballs is what got me so inspired... if you're around I'm always up for the chance for a practice and am willing to travel-- I would feed you in exchange!

Thanks all,
linda


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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:Traditional staff burn-offs still distribute fuel pretty liberally over the ground - so not good in an environmentally sensitive area, i think

ture na sig

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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Wouldn't it mostly burn up before it hits the ground? Although if your wicks have to be soaking wet, then there's at least gonna be dripping between soaking and spinning off anyway. Hmmm. I do wish the rain would stop so I could try this again.

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Written by: FlamingOberon

As far as can shakes offs -

Here is a site with a video or staff and poi can shake off techniques:
:
http://www.thevenue.org/firespinning_videos.htm




That's great!!!! Thanks for that link, I have always just done an unlit spin... this will save my backyard grass from developing the oval sad patch!!! biggrin


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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FlamingOberon
FlamingOberon

ohm mani padme hum
Location: Worcester, MA
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 134
Posted:I dont think you can expect much of a fireball if you shake off first.

And if it was Prometheus' fireballs that inspired you, I can tell you that during everyone I did, which was two or three during the concert, I was hit by fuel droplets each time... it is inevitable... There is just fuel that travels faster than the fire can...

There really is no way that I know of to be good to the environement AND to create a fireball. However, the vast majority of the fuel does burn off in the fireball, so while there are some stray droplets, there shouldnt be many. Same thing happens with poi when you light trails on the ground, even after 3 or 4 good hard spins to get rid of your excess, you will feel a few drops here and there, it is kind of inevitable.

Also, white gas does evaporate, so the longer between soak and ignition, the less fuel there will be, so if youre soaking and then attaching and then lighitng, that could be taking time up.

Just a note, when soaking with a full length staff - so you soak one wick, and then you flip the staff to saok the other... make sure you dont hold the staff perfectly vertical while soaking the second wick... this may seem obvious and i am sorry if it is redundant... but if you hold it vertical than excess fuel from your already soaked wick will srip onto your hands and down your staff, and your whole staff will ignite. i have done this once and didnt even have to stop spinning, i just patted the flames out, but it is something to be aware of, is all.

linda, i will PM you next time i am heading to CT...


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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Ha! No nothing is too redundant for me. There's lots of little things that happen that I had no experience to imagine would happen before they happened. I've been wondering how you would soak with a single piece staff.

OK, had no idea fuel evaporated that quickly, now noted.

At first I was not shaking off much, then trying to throw a lame fire ball, getting nothing, so when I started spinning the fuel was spitting off quite a bit, and having a short staff that means coming right at my face. I hate that so I've either gotta shake it all off or get a good fire ball. Will experiment again on this fine evening.

Thanks, FO.
linda


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wing
member
Location: New Haven, CT
Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 52
Posted:Wow, I guess I've never seen a spin off up close. My fiance did some last night, he put good spin on it, got a bit of a fire ball, but from the side I could see it was mostly a big spray of unlit fuel showering down. Definitely un-enviornmental, but isn't it also somewhat dangerous to get fuel on yourself for the rest of the spin?
It was pretty though. smile


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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Without any wind i can get my burn offs higher than a two story house easily enough.



I once even put out my staff out with a burn off... now if i could do that on purpose... what a trick...



I have found for myself that the trick is not to throw it at all. Or at least not much. It just needs to be spun as hard as you can. I start in front of me and moves my hands up over my head and spin the staff along its axis from between my two palms, squeezing my palms together seems to help. One hand moves up, one hand moves down. If you throw it straight it should come straight back down into your hand. The heat generated by the burn of is enough to make the fire travel straight up.



Be carefull if your doing it over your head. Dont look up after youv'e caught the staff. Alot of the spray might not light and can come straight back down in your eyes.



If you get it just right, no spray somes back down, which is the ideal.



For audience purposes i am finding that its better to do a few smaller burn offs than one huge one. They love it either way, they always want more. and its easier smile


Love is the law.

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FlamingOberon
FlamingOberon

ohm mani padme hum
Location: Worcester, MA
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 134
Posted:a bigfireball is beautiful, though...

my friend and i choregraphed a duel (using colemans fuel), and he lit his staff manually, then got on one knee in front of me, and i put my staff directly above his, and i echoed his spin off so his fireball lit my staff which then had its own fireball... HUGE flame, very pretty, kind of scary... but the last performance of it, i spun too early and didnt get a fireball, but i was lit when i caught it, so as i backed up to begin the choreography i did another spin off and still had enough for a decent fireball...

So, basically, my vote says that while the audience always wants to see more, sometimes giving them too much spoils it... so give em one big one and let them wish for more, but make em wait til the next show (or the next burn)... but you can do a number of small ones...

i also have put my staff out witha fireball when using lamp oil, but not with colemans fuel...


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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:i've had a thought:

you know how you can get a gyroscope spinning pretty damn fast by wrapping a string around it, and pulling it off?

so here's the suggestion: take a piece of high-friction cord . . . no, take two pieces . . . no, take one piece, and lay the staff on it, close to one end. then roll the staff up in the string. pulling the string at both ends should cause the staff to spin *very* fast - certainly faster than doing it manually. and this should give a big burn-off.

i haven't tried it yet, but i'm going to, as soon as i get the chance.


ture na sig

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TeeJay
TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa
Member Since: 23rd Oct 2003
Total posts: 75
Posted:Samoan fireknife dancers always use Coleman's (except for Western Samoans, who use gasoline - tried to convince them otherwise but they don't listen).
Anyway - my son never shakes his knife off - even though I'm always scolding him, he just smiles sweetly and does his own thing which is:
One end of the knife is lit - he enters the audience a bit - then does either a tongue or hand transfer of the flame - then a high throw, then he spins directly in front as he moves from one end of the stage to the other. At this point he kneels and sets the spuns off gas on fire - the "wall of fire".
This is done, however, on a carpet of astro turf over cement - so it's not affecting our environment.

Teejay


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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:doesn't the astro melt?

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TeeJay
TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa
Member Since: 23rd Oct 2003
Total posts: 75
Posted:Seems like it would - but coleman burns off so quickly that it doesn't. We use Astro for all our competitions - we do occasionally have to stamp out a small burn spot, but all in all it works quite well - especially considering the amount of fuel fireknife dancers use.

Teejay


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