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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:so, ive been thinking about this for some time, the notion that humans are too smart for this planet, that we have outwitted nature

take this example of natural selection.. normally in nature if an animal is born with a limp, blind, or disabled in any other way, that creature is bound to be one of the first to die because it has a harder time protecting itself.. if that animal were to live and pass on its genes, and in the end result in a genetic mutation in that species, that would mean that that gene (or lack of perhaps) is better for that species in terms of survival..
we humans however have found ways of keeping the blind, the disabled and aged people alive and healthy and allow them to lead a relatively normal life, through aid of medicine, guide dogs,etc..
to what extent do people think that humans have outsmarted nature??


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Fuero


Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 465
Posted:Thus the dodo adepted itself to it's envirement. It was on top of it's foodchain so it didn't need to fly, be thin or to be fast. We we're the invaders so to say. If we hadn't visited it's nature. It would have still lived today....

Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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~m~
BRONZE Member since Dec 2003

~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK

Total posts: 67
Posted:If we hadn't turned up, chances are something else would have - sooner or later. Something usually does!

Stickman - killing animals for reasons other than food or self preservation is natural behavior for humans, sad as that may be. I wouldn't do it myself, as I think the world is a poorer place to live in without some of these lovely animals, but I disagree that it's unnatural.

Perhaps I'm arguing semantics here, but I've always had a bee in my bonnet about people referring to things humans do as "unnatural". In my book, we're just as much a part of nature as anything else....


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:I've read alot about humans altering and thereby damaging the environment to it's own advantage. I'd just like to point out that most of our environment-altering crimes were committed by animals first.

We make dams to benefit our energy needs, beavers make dams to make homes; we use large nets to gather fish, from the water, spiders make webs to gather insects from the air; We build roads to improve our own transportation, ants dig complex tunnel systems.

We even create camoflauge for our soldiers, to make us more efficient in conflict with each other; many animals utilize the same combat tactics. The trap door spider actually builds a hide and carries out planned ambushes.

It would seem that if we humans are guilty of 'affecting nature,' so is everyone else.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: Prometheus

It would seem that if we humans are guilty of 'affecting nature,' so is everyone else.



Ok : first off, PLEASE tell me you see the differance in our dams, which flood acres and acres of land, to the beavers that may flood the river 10-20 feet above normal, plus ours are perminant, also if a beavers adamn breaks, oh well, if OUR dams break RUN LIKE HELL.........

Spiders uses small webs to catch their food, we DRAG larg nets across the bottom of the ocean, sea, riverbed, what ever destroying EVERYTHING to catch some fish........

Come on man, the comparisons you made are so unbalanced its not even funny..........im not trying to slam you, everyone has the right to use their voice, but think about the comparisons theyre so extreme.........

Lastly, yes other animals have been affecting nature for ever and a day, but they do so in a way the HELPS the enviroment. The beavers damn makes a place for fish to school, the spider cathes insects in its web controlling the insect populatin (in a sense) Humans, well very few us actually TRY to contribute back to this planet, for the most part the human species just takes with out giving back. Sure there are organizations that do alot of good, but i fear its too late............ok im done

And again Prometheus im not trying to slam you or your comments meditate


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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~m~
BRONZE Member since Dec 2003

~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK

Total posts: 67
Posted:I fear if I reply to this, Fryed Fish, I will be repeating myself somewhat. But, haivng googled for "natural extinction", I found the following quote (amongst others):

Reasons for natural extinction include environmental pressures, cataclysmic events, predation and competition for food and habitat.

That's predation/competition for food and habitat with _any_ animal. Including human beings. We're not the first animal to have forced others out and made them extinct, and we won't be the last. Yes, we're probably eradicating more species than other animals have managed to do (although not as many as the natural disasters that have caused the various mass extinctions throughout history), but that doesn't make what we're doing unnatural. Just impressive! (in a bad way...)

I'm with Prometheus on this one smile

~m~


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Yeah, but how long until the food resources run out? We'll have litterally eaten ourselves to extinction... There was a poem by Shel Silverstein I read as a kid that was like that, just thought of it now....



What we are doing *is* natural. It's like... Mice and wolves (bear with me). If there are enough mice, the wolves will thrive, and breed. When the mice run out, the wolves' numbers lower from lack of food... mice go up, then wolves go up, mice go down, wolves go down, etc. etc. We all know this... but it hasn't happened to humans yet... But if we keep going, it might become a serious possibility some day!



~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:well, Fish, I'm never offended by well-thought opinions cool

As far as the scale goes, yes we impose far greater changes on the environment, but also, proportionally to our abilities. How big of a dam can a beaver make, for example? Our higher intelligence and technology allows for a more profound impact.

And just a thought on extinction, irrespective of how we act on this planet, 30 species of animals will die out today. That's just mother nature. Maybe she gives certain species the ability to adapt and prevent their own extinction. Also, she probably gives some species the means to cause their own extinction. Ever wonder which one we are?
wink


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Fuero


Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 465
Posted:I think the big difference between us dragging nets and spiders making a web is that we have an overexcess and that spider cath what they can eat and there it stops.

I'm with prometheus on saying that everything effects eachother, but we are the overeffect and will kill everything if continue like this. Wouldn't happen in our lifetime probably, but it will.


Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:this is all true, the thing about humans is we havent reached our population limit. the problem here is its hard to tell if we will ever reach it. with peoples ability to invent(human ability only) we may never reach our population limit because we will continue to create easier ways for us to survive, such as genetic engineering making food sources bigger and more nutrient rich.
really when you start getting into where humanity is heading you have to stop and think 'how can i know? there are so many random events and unknown events that simply one individual can never see the changes and progresses made throughout the entire world day after day after day.'

i dont think we can be compared to other animals simply because humans have abilities that seemingly no other animal on earth has. such as imagination(anybody who can actually put imagination down with a definition'i'd love to meet). while i accept that humans are just another species i think that we cannot be compared to other animals simply because humans have no comparison. ave you ever even heard of a rabbit thinking "i think i'm pretty smart c****ing to fertelise the grass i'm going to eat making it healthier for me"? no. because they cant understand what they are doing, they act on instinct.

point me out if i'm wrong on this but i've never heard of a non-human animal thinking.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Fuero


Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 465
Posted:Imagination; Thinking up things/situations that don't exist. Maybe that comes a bit close.

Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:nice to meet you!(spot the meeting) yeh thats sort of on the mark. at least that dont exist to that persons knowledge, not yet

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Fuero


Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 465
Posted:I don't see it. Sorry, dude...

Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:haha, i said "nice to meet you"hence we have met, i have met the person i'd love to meet if they could describe imagination!(it all makes sense in my imagination!)

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Fuero


Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 465
Posted:O, now I get it. But I must say that we don't know that animals don't have an imagination. Because we can't talk to them, I never met a ferret that said to me: "Imagine this...." Maybe he wanted to, but he just can't, because I don't understand what he is saying.

Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: Mr Majestik

point me out if i'm wrong on this but i've never heard of a non-human animal thinking.



in what direction would you like to be pointed?

going of what you said about a non-human animal thinking.....if you mean problem solving thinking, bears do it to find grubs in dead trees. parrots (can be tought) but there is still a thought process that goes on.......hell my dogs think, not on the same level, but they do...........so im assuming that's not the point you were trying to make, so please clearify


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: stickman

so, ive been thinking about this for some time, the notion that humans are too smart for this planet, that we have outwitted nature

take this example of natural selection.. normally in nature if an animal is born with a limp, blind, or disabled in any other way, that creature is bound to be one of the first to die because it has a harder time protecting itself.. if that animal were to live and pass on its genes, and in the end result in a genetic mutation in that species, that would mean that that gene (or lack of perhaps) is better for that species in terms of survival..
we humans however have found ways of keeping the blind, the disabled and aged people alive and healthy and allow them to lead a relatively normal life, through aid of medicine, guide dogs,etc..
to what extent do people think that humans have outsmarted nature??



Love is the law.

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:????? um ok.........confused are you trying to say we got off topic or.....what?

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:what i meant by thinking was more of the imagination side. did bears invent computers? lol, no! i mean that animals other than humans cant create things that dont yet exist. you're right though fryed fish, i may have gone a bit wayward on the actual thinking concept.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:hey thanx for that contribution ado-p biggrin nana i love to see my own words repeated.......



no, bears and beavers dont have philosophical discussions.. and yes, we are the only species to have invented computers, even plastic, or the ability to farm on a large scale, and that does make us unique, but we are definitely still part of nature, no matter if we like it or not..



the difference between species becoming extict by our hand or influence and by the interference of other species, is that we do it on large scale, and not only for surviving purposes.. there are plenty of species that have become extinct because their surroundings changed so rapidly that they couldnt adapt, or a stronger animal invaded their niche, and thats natural selection.. but the near extinction of the siberian tiger is not a matter of NS.. most of those tigers were killed becuase of its beautiful fur, and that is aesthetics, a luxury that we can damn well do without.. the eradication of the wolf in western europe is not as good an example, but it was done to protect livestock and because they were considered a pest.. that was however more of a survival of the fittest battle cuz wolves are almost as adaptable and social species as we are, and that creates competition for food, habitat, and living space..



hmm... dont really know what my point was there.. confused i guess just pay most attention to the siberian tiger example.



*sits on bed with a cup of tea to clear head* biggrin


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:it so made sense, large scale destruction for non-survival pruposes

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:ok thats what i thought you were trying to say, just wanted to make sure Mr.......

now to really mess things up i contradict myself biggrin

now as you all have read, one of my major stands on this debate has been that the ideas and inventions we have and have made are natural, because, we are part of nature and our brains are part if us hence part of nature............

well, this weekend i was stoned and started to think about this topic over and over, replaying everything i could remember, and literaly talking to myself (happens all the time) but then i started to argue this point (again with myself)

now i think we can agree that cloning is not natural, at lest not to the degree we are talking about, but the problem is that a natural human thought of it, so going back to my point, if a human can clone another human could THAT be natural? no.......

so here i sit, realizing that no matter how well thought out my point was, it was still wrong (to a degree) and i find myself wondering, at what point did humans stop being part of nature, and start trying to play God?

<the measure of a true debatist is the ability to see the other side, and admit they are wrong> wink


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:imagination:
according to Kant the imagination is just another step in the prosses of thinking. It starts with the senses. We take what we see smell ect. and put this data into the brain. To understand the brain's function a little better you can think of it as somehing that simply holds this data in a way so the imagination can translate it. What the imagination does is play with this data like a puzzle (what kant calls 'imaginitive free play' for those of you who have looked at my profile). When logic tells the imagination that the pieces of the puzzle (the data from our senses) are in the correct order then we understand what we are looking at.
If you want to understand this any better do any type of drug. It will effect one of these parts of the brain. such as, something may slow down your imagination so you can more understand what you are looking at, or slow down your logic so you see what isnt actuallu there. pretty cool stuff, dont ya think?


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:beerchug at least i know i can always count on you to come thru with something so far off from what i said that its a dif topic completely.......ubblol just kidding bro



thats a good concept, but what about perception? we all perceive things differently. my logic and your logic, while close at times, are still verry different, so when my senses are analizing something, you might be analizing the exact same thing, but our perception of it will be different......



tag youre it


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

Delete

Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:well how is that any different from looking different. Genes are what we are. They tell us what to look like. What color our hair is and where to grow hair more. They also tell us how to translate the world. I, for example, see alot of what i do with my friends back in nashville do as a cycle. everything is like passing a bowl (this is all the do so you an understand...). the conversation goes goes in a cirlce like cycle and you actually pass the conversation. this is how my body has told me to look at the world. mostly from what i see (early experiances). so perception is based on our genes and early experiances.

as for percieving things differently..well yeah. if you look at te wold subjectivly as i do then you can understand that this orld that we percieve is just our translation. Communication is a way to agree on what we see. when we argue it is usualy a disagreement on what something is: the definition of something, or, to the basic, what we percieve it to be.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:its so hard to debate a point with someone when you agree with their point wink so im gonna stop here, theres nothing i can think of to counter you.

i guess its true, you cant argue with a sick mind devil


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:so where exactly does imagination come into all of this perception?

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:read my first post on this page. Its all there. unless i didnt explain it well enough.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:no man you did just fine, i understand what you said, and i agree with it, my thing is that over the weekend i realized an error in my thoughts (it happens froms time to time if you can believe that) and i was jsut amazed that no one pointed it out earlyer, so, i pointed it out, besides, one thing i have always believed in is that when your wrong on any level admit it..........

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

Delete

Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:what was it? good theory on being wrong. the world could use more of you. then maybe we wouldnt be so stuborn about, lets say...GOVERNMENT!!! Some times its easier to tell the truth rather than getting all POLITICAL. and maybe if the representaion for a certain nation were a little better everyone wouldnt hate this nation so much.





i hate bush.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:word up B!! agreed on that last point fryed fish..

so is this to say that imagination is solely a human 'skill'.. because if it is simply another step in the process of thinking then all animals have imagination (providing that all animals can think.. of course not all because not all have a brain let alone a nervous system)

i think imagination is a way of coming up with events, people, words, bla bla bla that have not been thought of before or that do not exist.. stephen king's dark tower or J.R.R. Tolkien's LOTR is a massive collection of imagination printed in words on paper.. those were/are stories that have not been thought of before, events that never took place.. i think it is actually more than just another step in the thinking process. i think it goes beyond that.. it is a way of piecing together new thoughts in your mind to create a whole fictive scenery.

however it just struck me that there is a milder form of imagination.. imagine (haha, no pun intended) that youre walking through a shopping street and think "im hungry" then deciding where to go is a form of imagination too.. or???

i need sleep, im confusing myself...


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