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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:so, ive been thinking about this for some time, the notion that humans are too smart for this planet, that we have outwitted nature

take this example of natural selection.. normally in nature if an animal is born with a limp, blind, or disabled in any other way, that creature is bound to be one of the first to die because it has a harder time protecting itself.. if that animal were to live and pass on its genes, and in the end result in a genetic mutation in that species, that would mean that that gene (or lack of perhaps) is better for that species in terms of survival..
we humans however have found ways of keeping the blind, the disabled and aged people alive and healthy and allow them to lead a relatively normal life, through aid of medicine, guide dogs,etc..
to what extent do people think that humans have outsmarted nature??


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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:stickman...for the future you cant think of what i say as so limited. its just the way i think that i see everything on the same level. so if you take your conclusion to your big paragraph and compare it to my own it is the same thing.

just remember, everything, to me, can be explained by anything else. this is why when fryed fich asked me to give my own opinion on the subject i was confused. you see if everything is the same then all i can do is use supporting evidence to agree or disagree. so in this light my own opinion is somewhat insignificant.

sorry about the rambling, it just what i do.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:sorry man.. its just that intonation is hard to pick up in forums.. i guess i just wanna get it all straight in my head.. maybe im one of those ppl who needs to see things in black and white for it to make sense, but that doesnt mean im not open to other opinions.

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:yeah dude i know what your talkin about with the whole board and emotion thing. i try ya know.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:sorry, where is the topic now?------lost----------

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:no its on the first page wink we are no on page 7, anything goes after page 6 every one knows that ubbloco

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:oh, in that case i'd like to say humans are the SMARTEST creatures ever to walk on the plant and i think lowly DESTROYING the WORLD is a GREAT idea! biggrin

or something like that


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:wow youve got some serious issues Mr. M:p

or youre just a greedy capitalist working for a multinational company that enslaves four yearolds wink


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:oh you wouldnt believe everything pent up in me ready to be unleashed on the world(including a nasty cough!)

sif capitalist, do you not know my famous "christmas rhymes with capitalist" thread?
DOWN with multinational(mainly american) companies!


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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anemone


anemone

newbie
Location: London, England, Europe, Plant...

Total posts: 12
Posted:Let me just say that I havent read all the posts here, so sorry if this has been said before.
Anyway, konsti, u are wrong that I said that technology will make us less intelligent. I dont agree with that, however, the term intelligence will be different aswell. Intelligence now can be defined as how much knowledge an individual has (very rough definition but its not my point). Future intelligence, with the advent of pocket-information-portal, will be defined as the ability to gain information and to filter the required info. Intelligence will be about searching and filtering.
But anyway, id definatly say that humankind is too intelligent for its own good at least, i dunno if it could be defined as "too good for nature" or whatever, as our superior intelligence is itself just a process of natural selection (altho im with boris in that that does not apply anymore). I would say that due to the fact that intelligence of humanity is rising exponentially (which can be seen every where, but easiest in the technological world of discoveries... i mean, 1st we discovered fire and invented the wheel, and slowly we started using these two tools to make more tools and more tools and more.... so after a while we could see that the industrial revelution is only about 100 years before the space age, which is itself only around 30 years before the internet revolution...) and the fact that morality and laws which govern understanding and control such information is only moving is a straight sloped line upwards we will definatly reach the point where we will see revolutions in our lifetime... ubbloco


Bizzare Tzar Bazaar
Belt from buckling a buckle of a belt
Twenty-two tu-tu tattoos
How long has long gone John had long-johns on?

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:madness!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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anemone


anemone

newbie
Location: London, England, Europe, Plant...

Total posts: 12
Posted:oic so now weve moved onto imagination then... ok... i can handle it, yea yea what what respect, word up B....
i think that 1st we have to define what imagination is. Imagination in my book (the big black book in the back, top shelf... no no THAT book, tsk tsk tsk...) is just a more complex form of creativity. Since, scientificallly speaking, creativity is an instability in the mind which causes someone (or some animal but ill get to that later...) to think or create a connection which has not yet been made or which is not quite logical. To even have the oppurtunity to have this instability one requires a relatively intellectually and emotionally superior mind. Thus, only very intelligent creatures have imaginations.
BOOOYAAAAA kashaaaaaa!

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Bizzare Tzar Bazaar
Belt from buckling a buckle of a belt
Twenty-two tu-tu tattoos
How long has long gone John had long-johns on?

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: anemone

Imagination in my book is just a more complex form of creativity. Since, scientificallly speaking, creativity is an instability in the mind which causes someone to think or create a connection which has not yet been made or which is not quite logical.



ok i have to say something on this point, the rest i can agree on (kind of)
now the first part about imagination being a more complex form of creativity, thats like saying driving is a more complex form of transportation, its redudant......however i agree with you, but creativity being an instability in the mind and so forth, cant agree on at all. how is creativity and instability? i see creativity as a higher form of thinking, like the old saying goes "think out side the box." granted not all forms of creativity are logical that part is true, however if we always stayed in the realm of logic, how far would humans have gone?


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:isn't it "think outside the square"?

lol, yeh i agree with you fryed fish, imagination is a high form of thinking, not an instability.

slightly off imagination(ok, wayyyy off) but i was thinking the other day about genetics and evolution as talked about on previous pages. humans ability to foster the waeker of the species allowing them to reproduce is defeating the theory of evolution in a sense, we've evolved to a state where we aid those like us that aren't as able to survive independantly. maybe i've just confused myself but it made sense at the time.

basically i mean to say that because we have evolved as a social species our society has fostered those humans with weaker genes and allowed them to reproduce and pretty much created our own environment. i dont know what my point is but it was just a thought.

btw i'm not a supremicist or anything, i'm talking on a scientific level not a ethical level.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:hahahahahahaahahahahahahaha

lol mr. maj.. that is basically the argument i started this thread with! but thats ok, i dont think you were there from the very beginning.. ya know, way back when..

and yea fryed fish, i agree with you, that creativity is not a form of instability.. sure some really imaginative and creative (not to mention talented) people in history went crazy (take vincent van gogh), but i dont think it is a general trend, that the more creative you are, the crazier you go..

(directed at anemone) although you and robby seem to be pretty nuts sometimes.... lol!


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anemone


anemone

newbie
Location: London, England, Europe, Plant...

Total posts: 12
Posted:hrmmm...
well actually, i wish I could find the article on www.slashdot.com which showed the study that people considered creative have specific points in their brain which would be classified instable.
Im not saying that creative people are loonies, im just saying there has to be a certain degree of thinking differently, and this difference in thought is generally caused by irrational thoughts and connections which generally should not be there. Ive had this debate with so many of my art tutors hahaha... its great to finally have it outside the art world.
I find it an interesting point that imagtion is a high form of thinking (no pun intended...), I would definatly agree that creative people are generally more intelligent than non-creative ones (altho not always true) altho i prolly have a personal bias affecting my opinion .
Oh, i just thought of this... Im sure everyone would agree that most children are generally more imaginitive than adults.... how does this come into the "higher form of thinking" arguement?

on a sidenote for those of interested in some seriously sick tripped out [censored] check out www.wwwcomcom.com
this guy most definatly has some instabilities in his brain! i love it!

ubbloco


Bizzare Tzar Bazaar
Belt from buckling a buckle of a belt
Twenty-two tu-tu tattoos
How long has long gone John had long-johns on?

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: anemone


which showed the study that people considered creative have specific points in their brain which would be classified instable.







ok the rest of your post was nicely put, and i have read studies that say what i am quoting you on...........my problem with it is that we are all judged by pre-set guide lines that say what is and is not normal. granted the list of creative/intelligent people that went nuts is verry long, but why do we all have to be judged in the same way?



artisticaly speaking i have the skills of 2 year old (my stick figures look censored up) but when it comes to poetry, and writings i can hold my own............now with that said, we all know that dif parts of the brain effect dif skills, so why should my mental stability (or instability wink ) be judged the same as some who is artistacly inclined, or who has no creative skills at all?


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by: Mr Majestik
humans ability to foster the waeker of the species allowing them to reproduce is defeating the theory of evolution in a sense, we've evolved to a state where we aid those like us that aren't as able to survive independantly.


if you think of evolution as a one sided thing then yes you are right. but we must also think of death as an apex of evolution as well as enlightenment. if a shark evolves into a deadly preditor then small fish also evolved into its prey. my point is that evolution is always in effect and does not have to yield a greater being.

Written by: Stickman
the more creative you are, the crazier you go


to continue on my last point...what makes a smarter more inteliugent person smart? the only reason why we call a man crazy is because we do not understand them compleatly or they could actually be crazy. as for the more creative becoming crazy...maybe they are only ahead of their time.
just as the evolutionary line that humans are following can not be seen. we dont know if we are heading to greater enlightenment or the end of our time.

Written by: anemone
Oh, i just thought of this... Im sure everyone would agree that most children are generally more imaginitive than adults.... how does this come into the "higher form of thinking" arguement?


i wouldnt call it a higher form of thinking...just less mature. i would compare it to water running through rocks. the rocks are memories which effect the flow of the water. the water is the present life. as more memories are added to the life and more rocks are added to the stream then more consideration and diversion of thoughts take place.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:hey brain, im not sure if you completely read the last ten or so posts..

that statement you quoted me on was part of a larger sentence saying that "i dont think its a trend, that Written by:
"

either way, all is water under the bridge, no hard feelings, im over it already, and no grudges will be held.. sorry for the inconvenience..

ummmm.... anemone, do you really think creativity is a higher form of thinking, or just the ability to make connections between things that do not occur in most ppls brains? is there a direct link between creativity and IQ score/intelligence??


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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:WHOOPS!

guess i just wanted to argue.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:thats true brain, and its also possible that those we consider inferior in some way may out live us, that they will be more suited to the environment of the future(whatever that may be)

Yeah stickman, i came in on page 3, good old page three when we were still on topic, *sigh*


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: Burning Brain

Written by: Mr Majestik
i would compare it to water running through rocks. the rocks are memories which effect the flow of the water. the water is the present life. as more memories are added to the life and more rocks are added to the stream then more consideration and diversion of thoughts take place.



thats well put brain......verry nice


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:what the? Brain wrote that not me!, your quote is all mixed up!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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JauntyJames
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

JauntyJames

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA

Total posts: 3533
Posted:i think that we have every right to destroy the environment. we're part of the environment. if a deer wanted to litter it could go ahead. litter is the same stuff that's been here all along, just in a different form. whether or not we should is a different matter....

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

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FatMan


newbie


Total posts: 1
Posted:we should move this thread. ill name it,
"Im an idiot...come make fun of my stupid comments"


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:random n00b, what exactly did that prove?

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: sparkey

i think that we have every right to destroy the environment. we're part of the environment. if a deer wanted to litter it could go ahead. litter is the same stuff that's been here all along, just in a different form. whether or not we should is a different matter....



ok sparkey, how do you figure its ok to KILL this planet? its not like we have one is reserve, nor can we just plant another one. and deers dont throw non-biodegradable products from the window of a device that pushses carbondioxide into the air......big differance my friend......

as for fatmans comments.........well, someones just mad cause they were at the shallow end of the gene pool and cant understand monosyllabic phrases


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Wonder Monkey
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex

Total posts: 121
Posted:Nice idea Burnign Brain - about crazy creative peeps being ahead of their time. I said the same thing to my Mum the other day (in reference to myself - the world isnt ready for my 'idealism' smile )

Also interesting re sharks/prey/evolution smile

As an aside, what do peploe make of esp,telepathy, telekinesis - is that he next evolutionary step? unlocking the parts of our mind that we cant use right now?

Speaking to s freidn the ptehr day he came out with the cool idea that we could well develop such things and more, but becasue we are conditioned from the cradle as to what is/isnt possible, right/wrong, dos/donts, we lose the ability to realise those things.

Which links to the idea of progress resulting in thinking outside the box (creativity).

THen what about autism and how that results in unlocking of talents and traits. And how is that linked to inlelligence? Is the intelligence inate. Am I using inate in teh right context? have I lost myself and others? :crazy: confused :crazy:

...(wanders off to talk to the man in the mirror he keeps seeing everytime he looks..)


My Mummy Says Im Special

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:yeah every baby has the ability to make any sound in any language and more. the tracia is ajusted to the language it learns. and the ability to make those sounds lowers.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Penguin Sven
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

Penguin Sven

member
Location: Australia,Vic

Total posts: 185
Posted:Written by: mico


But be careful with too strict a notion of what
is 'natural'.





I agree with that, surely the reason we are debating the fact about us exeding nature, is meerly because we have evolved and grown more intelligent. Which is natural, and through our intelligence we have done things to effect us (which might not be considered natural) such as medication.

But people have bean using mediacation for many hundreds of years, like aboriginals and tribes people all over the world, this is no doubt, natural. But why all of a sudden, because we have such things as fassion, technoligy and the time to not go scouring in the bush for food, we buy it at the super market and farm it? confused


"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner

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Wonder Monkey
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex

Total posts: 121
Posted:Written by: Penguin PIY

But why all of a sudden, because we have such things as fassion, technoligy and the time to not go scouring in the bush for food, we buy it at the super market and farm it? confused



Yeah - I think someone mentioend earlier of the fact that we could eb 'devolving' and although I think this isnt true, its seems that humanity is wanting less and less to be seen as a collective, yet more and more dependant on the collective serving their needs. At the same time we are trying to avoid/shift personal responsibility.

Its a crazy cocktail that I can see leading to our destruction unelss something major happens. if we are the major fuel for our problems, maybe they wont die out until we do.

No wonder we act all ubbloco

Or maybe this is just our nature, and we cannot change that - but I think its a bit defeatist to think like that, becasue if we can recognise a problem, is it not possible that we can overcome it?

confused


My Mummy Says Im Special

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