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stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:so, ive been thinking about this for some time, the notion that humans are too smart for this planet, that we have outwitted nature

take this example of natural selection.. normally in nature if an animal is born with a limp, blind, or disabled in any other way, that creature is bound to be one of the first to die because it has a harder time protecting itself.. if that animal were to live and pass on its genes, and in the end result in a genetic mutation in that species, that would mean that that gene (or lack of perhaps) is better for that species in terms of survival..
we humans however have found ways of keeping the blind, the disabled and aged people alive and healthy and allow them to lead a relatively normal life, through aid of medicine, guide dogs,etc..
to what extent do people think that humans have outsmarted nature??


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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish
i cant think of one species, sub-species or other wise that has eveolved thru destruction of their environment or habitat. then theres always the theory that the simpilist organisms are the ones that survive the harshest evnironments.



i also dont see any species of mammal that only walks on two legs other than humans. Every animal has its unique quallity. How is evolutionary tactics different that physical traits (other than one is physical and the other isnt). That is we are what we are.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:so you truly think it's in the nature of man to destroy our enviroment as a form of eveolution, or to further our evolution?

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:just an idea, possability, plus i just sorta wanted to argue.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:that's fine, but my question to you, brain, is what do you think. i have read all your posts on this topic and you have either backed someone or argued with them. no granted your views may be similar with someone else here, but it wont be the exact same............so; were do YOU stand brain?

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:are you talkin about the origonal question in the thread?

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:yes as strange as that may seem, i am refering to the original question

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by:
we humans however have found ways of keeping the blind, the disabled and aged people alive and healthy and allow them to lead a relatively normal life, through aid of medicine, guide dogs,etc...to what extent do people think that humans have outsmarted nature?



ok here ya go. im sorry if this is a bit confusing but i was a little baked and listening to orbital when i thought of this...


there is energy and non-energy that push and pull with eachother. think of a graph of a sine wave shaded on the bottom. lets say that energy is the shaded part of the graph and the unshaded part is non-energy. now think of non-energy as everything without energy in it (a rock, dirt whatever). as the energy is pushed into the matter (non-energy) there is life. but there cannot be too much energy or too much non-energy this would just make a ball of energy (a star) or a bunch of matter (a rock). I use this interpretation as a base to describe all activity in the universe big and small. Think of it in the sense that when you touch a desk or a piece of ice, some of the energy in my body merges with the energy of the other with less energy (Friction). or when a rock is in a humid environment fungus grows on it.

Ok heres the bit about the thread.

humans, and other non-energy things, filter energy in different ways. when we are taming a dog to give movement to a blind man then we are simply filtering this energy (the dog) in a human's unique way (see that post where i was talkin about unique features of animals). If you look at it this way then it is easy to see that we are doing is nothing other than what everything else does.

i think what people still do not understand is that we are not special in some way. i dont think that we are the center of the universe or picked by some greater being to be an example or think that special in any way. we are just stuff using energy...because it is what non-energy does, it absorbes energy.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:well put brain, well put..........ill get back to on that, have to soak it all in.........damn and im at work with no "spinach"....

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:yeah...

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:ok can you be a little more clear on the energy, non-energy, i.e. waht do you consider to be housing energy, and what non-energy? i feel there is energy in every thing rom the rock to humans, and when we interact with these objects or beings, a small trace of that other energy is carried with us.......so be a little more spacific [please]

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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grasshoppah
grasshoppah

HoP is teh suxor.
Location: Tampa, Florida
Member Since: 4th Nov 2003
Total posts: 425
Posted:smoke another doobie, bro.

Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:i cant im at work

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:ok when i talk about this interpretation belongs to everything i mean everything. no matter what size. Earth holds energy in its core and heats the earth and everything on it. this creates life. life on the surface of earth and and the earth as a living thing too. Humans hold energy in themseves in order to walk around, think of good ideas for games, find more efficient ways to get more energy, eat. its the same how ever far you go down. until you get to too much energy when the there isnt enough matter to use it (like the sun or an electron). The same is for the other side of it...where there is too much matter there is no life (which doesnt mean there is no energy just no life). so you could actually see this whole cycle in the earth.













If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:core (too much energy)-->life(equilibreum of matter and energy)--->space (no energy)

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: Burning Brain

i think what people still do not understand is that we are not special in some way. i dont think that we are the center of the universe or picked by some greater being to be an example or think that special in any way. we are just stuff using energy.



ok first off i agree with this, but i feel like playing devils advocate here.......so.........

if humans are not special in any way, then why is that humans have evolved in the fashion we have? reading what you have posted in just about all the "debate" topics in this forum, and from what i personaly know of you, there is no way you think it was luck that were turned out to be, what some would call the alpha species of the planet.......what, in nature, chose humans? why not the dolphin with its sophisticated sonar? or the shark, like you said, with its advanced preditory skills? do i think we are the most eveolved species on this planet? no. but its apparent that, for some reason, humans have been given the gift of advanced evolution......why if we are not special, or ment to eveolve in this way?

as for the rest you wrote, i read, understand wink and agree with it 100%, it sounds verry much like what i told you at sun burn....no light with out dark etc. you cant have energy with out a non-energy or, like you said, there would be no balance right?


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:ok now by saying that humans are the greatest you are forgetting that there are infinately greater things. humans for what they re take more energy than others. so you could say that we take in enough energy to be life but not enough to to be overloaded by energy (the sun). so you could say that we are closer to the side of energy than we are the non-energy. just as a rock is closer to the non-energy side than it is the energy side. so if we are special then so are rocks.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:ok i didn't say humans were the greatest thing. personaly i think you all are a cancer that needs treatment, and fast! but you kind of missed my question.......what gave humans the gift of advanced evolution? i agree we are closer to the side of energy, but we dont give back enough to be a fully functioning part of the universe. we seem to take more and give back less than any other species of animal, or plant (and at times some of us give back less than rocks <G.W. Bush> sorry) any way, back to my question. why if we are not special in any way, were we given the gift of advanced evolution?

or are you saying that the only reason we have this advanced evolution is becasue we THINK we have it, when in fact we are among the lower evolved species on the planet? if thats the case, were do you think our evolution i heading? i gave my idea of a mental evolution, which i think would give way to a physical evolution.


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:your still saying that it is a gift. my point was that we are no different from a ant, which we can crush under our foot. we are just a scenario set out from the beginning. we aer simply a scenario just as an ant is a scenario. i guess you could say that you could imagine a evolutionary curve and from that guess what would be next using the past to fill in everything on one side of the present point. what that is...im not sure, i havent learned enough history. but it wouldnt be too far off to say that our mind is evolving at a faster rate than our physical body is evolving.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:so saying we are a scenario, bascialy you think all of this was planed out right? humans were ment to evolve to this point, and any point from here was planned out as well, correct? then i pose the most dangerous of all questions to you brain............why? why were ment to evolve the way we have?

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:is it correct. yes, there is no other choice.

as for why there is a sort of simple answer here. matter uses anergy but if there is only matter and engery then that interaction is the only thing that is going to happen (the use of energy). so to answer why you must also answer what happens in the end...which i believe is compleate equlibrium where the entire universe is a single being.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: Burning Brain

is it correct. yes, there is no other choice.

as for why there is a sort of simple answer here. matter uses anergy but if there is only matter and engery then that interaction is the only thing that is going to happen (the use of energy). so to answer why you must also answer what happens in the end...which i believe is compleate equlibrium where the entire universe is a single being.



ok first part, there are other choices, thats what made this whole debate, is that there are other choices, and other views and ideas, so saying there is no other choice is a little persumptuious.......ok on to the second part........its stuff like this were you show a wisdom beyond your years, so to speak, i know verry few 19 year olds that grasp that concept.......hell i didnt grasp it till about 3 years ago......meditate.................

well thats about it huh? we debated this all the way down to its core, the only thing left would be wether or not there are other choices, but thats like argueing if there is a God........


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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=Flashpoint=
=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs...
Member Since: 1st Sep 2004
Total posts: 2719
Posted:Fish, Brain:

I have a different and slightly depressing view

Humans have evolved socially faster than nature allows. How come one of our most basic desires, for procreation with as many sexual partners as possible (for men) or dedication to one powerful male (for women), is socially frowned upon? We have blurred the lines people, we still have animal desires (to be the best) yet we THINK we don't!

I think therefore I am? But the matter of my body doesnt think?

I think, personally that the why are we here question is answered with silence, as there is no WHY, there is only HOW, we evolved not by a choice, but by chance, and we sped ahead by making things that did the work of a thousand specially evolved creatures to do our work for us. We outsmarted nature the moment a Neanderthal picked up a rock and hit something with it.

From one viewpoint...

Yet nature has the power to destroy us utterly. If the volcanic bloom under Yellowstone park erupts, say Bye Bye to the United States of America, not only as a country, but as a landmass as well... Oh, and probably all of human civilisation as we know it.

We have outsmarted nature, sure, but we have not Conquered nature... Yet...

When we have total control of our planet on a Geological scale, then we can say this, but that'll be after some fool of an idiots b*stard lovechild with a braindead whore scientist tests something without knowing what it'll do... Anyone seen The Core...

Sayonara!


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Ok flash, i can see your points. well thought out to, but one problem.........who is to say we evolved socialy to fast? why is it not possible that this evolution we are experiancing was not planed on some cosmic level? as i said i can see you point, but other than useing animals, then machines how have we evolved past nature? our brains came up with the ideas.....as fore-mentioned, our brains are part of us, and we nature, so our brains are part of nature, there for nature designed them to think and evolve the way we have.........

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:[Quote]i think therefore i am? But the matter of my body doesnt think?


your brain uses electro-chemical reactions to what we call think.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:no burning brain, you missed my point. what i meant was yes we can survive, and as a social species we can aid our weaker links in surviving if we want to.
My main point was if we are so smart then why oh why are we surviving too well and destroying our environment?. like someone metioned earlier, we aren't in equalibrium with our environment and if we have the ability to see that we are doing damage then why not stop it?
its more complicated than bigger lion better survival because humans can premeditate and think ahead. sure if we are built like a truck we could fight off an attacker, but will that ensure the survival of the species if we are destroying our habitat?


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:Apologies if someone has already made this point - this thread was already rather large by the time I found it, so I've not ready every single post yet, but I wanted to add my tuppence....

I think it's interesting the way people view things which are done by humans as "unnatural" in some way.

If a beaver builds a damn, out of twigs and mud (or whatever it is that beavers build with - I'm no beaver expert!), no-one thinks of that as "unnatural" behaviour. But when a man builds a damn, out of concrete, they do. But I'm quite sure that if the beaver had the intelligence to first work out how to make concrete, out of mixing all sorts of natural stuff (the way other animals "manufacture" building tools from "natural" stuff), and then build a damn with it, then it would!

It is perfectly _natural_ human behavior to invent and use technology, to build roads, to drive cars and fly aeroplanes, to "polute" the atmosphere, to discover and manufacture medicines to keep people alive who might have died without them, and so on. There's nothing "unnatural" about it at all!

Oh bugger. I've just noticed that Fryed Fish said exactly the same thing a few posts ago. Oh well, I've written it now - might as well hit "post" and join the discussion...

~m~


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:And now I've just written a long post about pollution, following on from Mr Majestik, and lost it all.

*sigh* I suddenly feel like someone's trying to tell me something!

Anyway, the gist of what I have just typed out and lost, was that no, the species may well not survivie, but does that matter? Something else will evolve to fill the niches we create when we're gone. Personally, I'm not worried about the survival of the species at all!

~m~


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:ubblol i have "lost" about 3 different responses on this thread, i think its the starting of a curse........

M : what you said is true. if the human species does not survive something else will take our place, i can agre with that, but to say you are not worried about the survival of the species, that concerns me.........for one, with that kind of mentality our species will not survive because people will just give up trying. there are so many options open to humans, on how to live in harmony with nature, that to not be worried about our survival is a mentality that will hold us back........it all goes back to a mental evolution, the more we evolve our minds, will we have more ideas, these ideas wil eventualy give way to invention and discovery, these discoveries might just save us all............

im not trying to slam you for your thought M, just debateing my point wink


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:"The only sign of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is that no one has tried to contact us yet."
-Calvin & Hobbes-


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:Glad to hear it's not just me! Does make you wonder where they go, though, doesn't it?!?



And no offence taken - this is a view of mine which often causes mixed reactions!



Basically I believe whatever survives, survives, and has as much right to be here as anything else, and I don't believe that humans are in any way "special". If we're silly enough as a species to wipe ourselves out, well, does it *really* matter? In the grand scheme of things, I think not. Something else will evolve to take our place, then something else will evolve to take it's place, and so on, exactly as has been happening since life first evolved on Earth. We just happen to be at the top of the chain at the moment - I don't believe we're likely to stay here forever... Does it really matter that the dinosaurs got wiped out? Not from where I'm standing - chances are we'd never have evolved if they had survived! And eventually the sun will go nova, and all our atoms will be scattered across the cosmos, and maybe one day they'll form part of a new star and a new solar system, and maybe something else will evolve there, too.....



I will do what I can to ensure my own personal survival, and, perhaps one day, that of my children, and hence my genes, and if we all do that, then the species *should* take care of itself. But I'm not going to let whether the species survives or not keep me awake at night, because ultimately I don't think it matters. The universe will carry right along without us!



~m~

EDITED_BY: ~m~ (1103119924)


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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