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stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:so, ive been thinking about this for some time, the notion that humans are too smart for this planet, that we have outwitted nature

take this example of natural selection.. normally in nature if an animal is born with a limp, blind, or disabled in any other way, that creature is bound to be one of the first to die because it has a harder time protecting itself.. if that animal were to live and pass on its genes, and in the end result in a genetic mutation in that species, that would mean that that gene (or lack of perhaps) is better for that species in terms of survival..
we humans however have found ways of keeping the blind, the disabled and aged people alive and healthy and allow them to lead a relatively normal life, through aid of medicine, guide dogs,etc..
to what extent do people think that humans have outsmarted nature??


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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Again well put.......and the thing is with the way you worded it, theres nothing I can really say. I do agree that the universe will go on with out us in it, and i can see why you say you dont care about the survival of the species. It is ultimatly pointless cause no matter what we do now, like you said M, the sunn will go nova and thats that. Its over then......but what about now? What do you think about humans and nature at this point in time?

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:Firstly, perhaps "don't care" is the wrong way to put it - I don't *worry* about it, and I don't think that ultimately it *matters*, but I admit that if I let my emotions get involved then thinking of the end of the species is somewhat sad, and I would certainly be upset to see it in my lifetime. So I do care, at least a bit! I just don't let it bother me, for all the reasons previously given.

As for now? I don't really see any problem. We're simply going about our natural human behaviour - you can't really expect us to do differently!

~m~


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish
for one, with that kind of mentality our species will not survive because people will just give up trying. there are so many options open to humans, on how to live in harmony with nature, that to not be worried about our survival is a mentality that will hold us back........it all goes back to a mental evolution, the more we evolve our minds, will we have more ideas, these ideas wil eventualy give way to invention and discovery, these discoveries might just save us all.........


keeping ourselves alive and not letting a more evolved being take our place sounds more unatural than anything anyone has said about the subject yet. In fact it doesnt even sound possible. If a more evoled species came up then it could only mean that humans would probably be gone or force into slavery as we have done to cows and such.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:ok brain, my point ws not clear, so here

with the mentality mentioned prior, the human species will not have the chance to evolve into anything, we'll just destroy ourselves before we can.........

and do you REALY consider what we do to cows slavery? come on man.........i think your useing the word a little to loosly here bro. for all we know the milk cows are sitting back going "man this is great, i never have to worry about were my next meal is coming from, los if water, and all i have to do is let some strange animal pull on nips." im gonna get in trouble for that one i know it...............oh well

now beef cows, they got the shaft in the deal.....;)


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish


and do you REALY consider what we do to cows slavery?



for all we know the milk cows are sitting back going "man this is great, i never have to worry about were my next meal is coming from, los if water, and all i have to do is let some strange animal pull on nips." im gonna get in trouble for that one i know it...............oh well



now beef cows, they got the shaft in the deal.....;)





eek



it's a good job most of us veggies are peace loving pacifists, otherwise you'd be preparing for an onslaught right now wink



spank


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Fuero
Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 465
Posted:Fryed Fish has just explained that cows are prostitutes? confused umm

What a world (s)he lives in...


Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:cows in slavery?

open the gates and see where they go...

thats the cruel bit.

their bred dumb.


Love is the law.

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:your right i should have used the example of baby cows tied up to poles with 10 inch ropes without enough food to survive past the day they are killed for their meat. or maybe chickens who are force fed so they become bigger and can pop out a few more chicken mcnuggets. its there dude. and if something of the future realizes our potential and has the means to enslave us in a way then i believe it will be done without many hard feelings. i think people dont simpathize with them only because they dont look like us or talk like us.


as for the destroying ourselves thing....yeah probably. i could prbably make up some BS saying that there are as many possibilities to keep polluting and get away from it as there are ways not to pollute, but yeah we'll probably kill ourselves first.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:see i told you i was gonna get trouble for that one wink

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:easy there brain.... hug i aint argueing.



I doubt we will kill ourselves. Only because I am an optimist though wink


Love is the law.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:I think that was directed at me ado-p? not sure.......

well brain that 2nd one was a little more, um, GRAPHIC........i saw your point before man, and maby its the omnivore in me, but i dont see cows, chickens, pigs, turkeys, as slaves........to me thats a little EXTREME.......i can understand your's and everyone else's attempt to personafy animals to give the subject a more human feel, but it falls on def ears here man, sorry.......

however, you are right. there is a possibility that one day some advanced species will en-slave us, and maby use us for food, but such is fate, and i dont think it will happen in our life time, but i have been known to be wrong on ocassion wink

but like i asked M........what about the now, at this point in time, were do humans stand in comparison to nature?


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:You're probably right - no doubt something else will get there first. If you believe what you see on the telly, we're "long overdue" for a meteor strike, a supervolcano explosion, a magnetic poll flip, and who knows how many other natural disasters that will wipe us all out! wink

~m~


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish

were do humans stand in comparison to nature?



parasites. sucking everything we need from our planet, but giving nothing in return

peace


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:thats a bit harsh faberge....

plenty of people giving there lives and more putting love and life back into the earth.

theres just not enough yet.

BRING ON THE SPIRITUAL REVOLUTION. VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!


Love is the law.

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Fuero
Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 465
Posted:Have to agree there with Ado-p. (Gotta keep him on the good site, for when he comes to Holland wink )
I know more then enough people that are trying to be nature's friend in any way possible. But there aren't just enough of them.

(But it will help if we just got rid of some large companies *uchemacdonaldsuche*


Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: ~m~

"long overdue" for a meteor strike, a supervolcano explosion, a magnetic poll flip, and who knows how many other natural disasters that will wipe us all out! wink~m~



or 4 hurricanes slaming in my state, extreme weather conditions all over the world, a week el-nino this year.......trust me i see the signs in the world......

as for Faberge, i half agre with you, humans are, for the most part, compairable to cancer. stay with me on this, you go into a new place, destroy its natural beauty to put up malls, then when that area's resources are used up, you move on leaving that land bare...........Fabrege is not the first person to compair humans to a terminal illness......

granted there are more and more people out there trying to do their best to replenish the earth, but what we used, and are now trying to replenish, took millions of years to develop.......


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: ado-p

thats a bit harsh faberge....




redface

bad day at the office, what can say? forgive me.

i did put my little "flower twirling hippie chick viewing the world through rose coloured glasses graemlin" at the end of my post so as not to sound too harsh. tongue


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:i still love you hug kiss

biggrin

*wonders off mumbling about cranky hippies*


Love is the law.

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish

as for Faberge, i half agre with you, humans are, for the most part, compairable to cancer. stay with me on this, you go into a new place, destroy its natural beauty to put up malls, then when that area's resources are used up, you move on leaving that land bare...........Fabrege is not the first person to compair humans to a terminal illness......



that's more or less what i meant.

every other species in nature falls into the great "birds and the bees" scheme of things

the beaver that was mentioned earlier builds his dam when winter is approaching. this provides a place for fish & frogs eggs to hatch. the shoots and leaves from the trees he cuts down provide extra nutrition animals like deer & moose who need to stock up on extra food for the harsh winter ahead

every other species in nature has it's role to play in helping life continue, in some form or other

we give back very little is all i meant


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:do you think that these creatures know thier part in this scheme?

i dont....

so i dont think there is any good reason for us to know our part either...


Love is the law.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:i think verry few of us ever know our "part" in nature, or the universe, and those who do, are gifted..........i dont think we will ever know untill the end, but thats the point right?

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:Written by: Faberg

every other species in nature falls into the great "birds and the bees" scheme of things

the beaver that was mentioned earlier builds his dam when winter is approaching. this provides a place for fish & frogs eggs to hatch. the shoots and leaves from the trees he cuts down provide extra nutrition animals like deer & moose who need to stock up on extra food for the harsh winter ahead




They also destroy the habitat of the creatures whos homes they flood, just like we do when we build dams. Not so great for them!

And we also provide all sorts of places for creatures to breed - rats, mice, pigeons, urban foxes, etc, are all doing very nicely living along side us. We give plenty back to them!

But for some reason people seem to have this perverse belief that because a creature does well when we're around it's somehow bad, but the ones who are threatened by our presence are somehow delicate and beautiful and need preserving.

The simple fact is that those who are doing well along side us have filled the ecological niches we have created (or rather, that exist along side us). Those who are being wiped out are being wiped out by natural selection. That's what they call evolution! I can guarantee if our cities were filled with pandas, but there were only 1,000 rats left on the face of the planet, we'd be putting down panda-poison and calling them vermin, while waving "save the rat" plaqucards(sp?) and saying how people give nothing back to the planet, look at the poor rats, but never mind the pandas who were thriving on our doorstep.....

Why we all seem to think that as soon as we're involved it's somehow different and unnatural is quite beyond me!


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: ~m~

And we also provide all sorts of places for creatures to breed - rats, mice, pigeons, urban foxes, etc, are all doing very nicely living along side us. We give plenty back to them!



M........what about the north american grey wolf? its being destroyed because of deforestation, so we can make more homes, for mores humans, or the buffalo?

The animals that are surviving in suburban settings are surviving on our trash, or flat out living in one of our many land fills. Feeding and living in filth, thats not evolution.

Saying we give pleny back to the animals whos homes we destroy to make homes for ourselvs, is like saying the native americans were given enough when they were put on reservations that are not even HALF of what they once had, its ludecrise......sorry........

Now on your other point (the panda mice thing) I fully agee, if it was mice in danger of being EXTINCT yes there would be a save the rat oranization, but the fact is, the rat is just fine, the panda is not, because of humans destroying their habitat, thats not natural selection, thats flat out genocide..........


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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~m~
~m~

member
Location: Nottingham, UK
Member Since: 4th Dec 2003
Total posts: 67
Posted:Plenty of other species have been made extinct over the course of the planet's history, long before we came along. They had their habitat destroyed by a wide variety of "natural" disasters, from the rise in temperature when all the continents merged to ice ages, to volcanic erruptions, to all sorts of things. That includes being wiped out by other species, who out-evolved them - who encroached upon their territory, and who were better at living there, better at making use of the resources available. It's nature, it's natural, and we're part of it. That's all I'm saying.

As for the animals which are surving in urban settings, many of them are positively thriving, with population numbers far out-stripping those in rural areas. Which is directly because of us. Yes, they're feeding on what we would consider "trash", but whether it's "rubbish" or a highly nutritious, easily available food source, is entirely a matter of perspective. From their POV it's a great food source that's come along. And I'm sure if you could ask them if they'd rather live in the cities, where the food is easy to find and high in calories and they can raise many young, or in the countryside, where they have to work hard for their food, they'd pick the easy living! The rubbish we throw out has created a great ecological niche which these animals are exploiting. And any dung beetle will tell you that evolving to live off other people's filth is a perfectly justified way to evolve!

~m~


"Come to the edge", he said. They said "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge", he said. They came.
He pushed them..... and they flew.
- Apollinaire

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:No question about evolution. Survival of the fitest, natural selection and the all rest see to that the strongest survive.

We what seperates us from the animals is that we are aware of our potiontal to evolve and so seek to build on it.

We have a choice.

There are many peoples in the world that live with the land, others that live off it and others still that live at the expense of it.

To compare a beaver destroying a breeding ground for salmon to a species thats destroying the breeding ground for all life doesnt work because their to many orders of magnitude apart.

Thought is evolving and more and more people are aware of the impact of the choices we are making.

Some time in the future, enough people will be aware enough to act and if not... there wont be anything left for us to argue about. smile


Love is the law.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: ado-p

Some time in the future, enough people will be aware enough to act and if not... there wont be anything left for us to argue about. smile



clap clap clap

well put, ado-p, well put


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:i would just like to say that im the man. i just wrote my final exam essay for english on what i posted here. the whole evolution thing. And all pretty much pulled out of my ass on the spot. and when i say ass i mean HoP.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:congrats man beerchug

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:yeh, nicely put ado-p

i'd just like to say incase some people dont know that there is more to evolution than natural selection, gene mutation is also a key aspect of the theory


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:too true mr. majestik.. gene mutation is precisely what has happened to creatures like urban pigeons.. i dont think they were able to digest fatty and salty things like french fries a thousand years ago.. in fact, they might not even have been 'urban pigeons' back then as we know them now...

now, about that whole destroying habitats discussion, i think both sides are a bit right, but i have to agree more with ado-p there..i do think that to a certain extent the extinction of the panda and the dodo bird, although mainly as a result of human inpact, is also a natural evolutionary process.. however, the beaver has been building its dams for centuries (i imagine) and in that time the salmon and all the other species affected by it have adapted to that.. in the case of the dodo and the panda, its just an evolutionary disadvantage to not be able to adapt easily to new surroundings and to have such a limited and specific habitat.. but i do NOT think that poaching pandas or siberian tigers or whales to use their fats for perfumes, and their coats for the projection of social status is very natural, let alone part of natural selection..

the dodo just had a major disadvantage in nature: it was slow, fat, could not fly, and laid its eggs on the ground.. the only reason it survived until the arrival of man and dogs was because there had been no natural predators on mauritius until then..


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