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GottaLoveIt


GottaLoveIt

Sponge
Location: Stevenage

Total posts: 883
Posted:I read about it in the newspaper this evening, now I'm not saying believe everything in the newspapers but just the photos made me get excited, that that many people can group together for one cause (even if it is political but then again, everything's political!). I've never been at a gathering of that many people. It kind of opened my hope a little bit more which I think I personally needed.

Monkeys monkeys and bananas

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hellos, I was just going to start a post about this (or maybe put it in the news thread)... smile

I was wondering... do we have anyone from the Ukraine on these boards to give us a little more insight into what is going on?

The story is that the Russian-backed President narrowly won due to election fixing, beating the Western-supported opposition candidate... but of course, that report comes from a Western angle.
However, there are tens of thousands of opposition (and government) supporters on the streets of the Ukraine - in sub-zero temperatures - to voice their opposition. Many media reports are suggesting there could be violence - but again, at this stage it's all 'ifs' and 'maybes'.

So, if anyone out there can shed any light on it?!!

This is the PA story:
By PA News

Tempers were rising as temperatures plummeted in Ukraine last night and talk of revolution was in the air after officials declared that Kremlin-backed Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych had been elected president.
It sharpened a crisis sparked by the opposition candidates allegations that the vote was rigged.
The announcement raised tensions in the streets of the capital Kiev, where tens of thousands of supporters of opposition candidate Viktor Yushch-enko have gathered in the snow for three days demanding the results be overturned.
Within minutes of the announcement by the Central Election Commission, some opposition supporters began heading from their encampment on Kievs central avenue to the presidential administration building.
That building was the scene of a tense stand-off on Tuesday night, as protesters faced a phalanx of shield-wielding riot police.
Outside the election commission building, throngs of Yanukovych supporters celebrated by drinking vodka and shouting their candidates name.
None of Mr Yushchenkos supporters were seen around the building. The opposition has said it is concerned security forces or Yanukovych supporters might take action to clear the opposition protests once a victory for the prime minister was certified.
Mr Yushchenko earlier appealed to security forces not to strike out at the protesters but to rise to the defence of the people.
Mr Yanukovych got 49.46 per cent of Sundays vote, against Mr Yushchenkos 46.61 per cent, the commission said at a meeting in giving the final results.
Supporters of the prime minister at the meeting began chanting Yanukov-ych! and waving his blue and white campaign scarves.
Western election observers said the vote was seriously flawed and did
not meet democratic standards, and exit polls showed a victory for Mr Yushchenko, a pro-Western reformer.
Mr Yushchenko told his supporters a symbolic oath of office that he took a day earlier was the first step, but we need to carry on to the end. God forbid anybody doubts that we will win.
He said he was not opposed to a repeat vote if the Central Election commission is made up of different
people.
Outgoing President Leonid Kuchma called for talks involving all sides, and Mr Yushchenkos allies initially appear-ed to be open to it.
But Mykola Tomenko, an MP and Yushchenko ally, told a crowd of supporters awash with the oppositions orange campaign colour that it would only discuss Mr Kuchma relinquishing power.
We are ready to negotiate only about the peaceful handing over of power to Mr Yushchenko by Mr Kuchma, Mr Tomenko told the crowd, which maintained its vigil on the capitals central Independence Square and the adjacent main avenue despite snow and freezing temperatures.
The election has led to a tense tug-of-war between Western nations and Russia, which considers Ukraine part of its sphere of influence and a buffer against eastward-expanding Nato.
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso warned of consequences for the European Unions political and trade relations with Ukraine if its government does not allow a serious, objective review of the election. At risk might be around 3,670 million the bloc has given or committed to Ukraine since 1991 in development and economic aid and possible visa bans on politicians and officials.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has congratulated Mr Yanukovych on his victory and the Russian parliament denounced the Ukrainian opposition for its illegal actions.
Former Polish President Lech Walesa, whose Solidarity movement kick-start-ed the downfall of the Soviet Union,
was flying to Kiev last night to act as a mediator.
Opposition supporters have taken over blocks of Kievs main street, setting up a giant tent camp.
But Mr Yanukovychs supporters have become increasingly visible in the capital, vowing to prevent the opposition from taking power. They have set up hundreds of tents on a wooded slope less than half a mile from the oppositions even larger encampment.
At one point, several dozen people from each side faced off near the Cabinet building, shouting insults at each other, though there were no reports of violence.
A miner from Kriviy Rih in eastern Ukraine who would only give his first name of Mykola said he came to the capital to prevent the usurping of power.
We have no one to bring us food and clothes as our opponents do, he said, referring to the huge outpouring of support from Kiev residents for the Yushchenko supporters camping out in the cold. But we will win because we believe in Ukraine.
Ukrainian Defence Minister Oleksandr Kuzmuk, vowed that the military will always serve only the peoples interests.
Yushchenko has accused authorities of rigging Sundays vote in favour of Yanukovych and has announced a campaign of civil disobedience.
In sign of defiance to the government, 14 journalists from state televisions main news programme announced a strike today.
Kievs city council and four other cities have refused to recognise a Yanukovych victory.
The White House had urged Ukraine not to certify the official results until fraud allegations are investigated, saying it was deeply disturbed by extensive and credible indications of fraud, according to spokeswoman Claire Buchan.


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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:Youre right Firepoise that the information we get is all from a western angle, but if that many people crowd onto the streets in this weather just to have their opinion heard, demanding justice and democracy, then i think there is most likely some very high possibilities of fraud that occured during these elections..

according to one news source, im not sure but i think it was just the dutch local news (again pro western), Yushchenko was leading the elections for most of the time in the polls, and the end result was that Yanukovich won the elections with 99% of the votes.. now i dont have sources to site or to read from in front of me so i highly doubt the credibility of the information i am supplying, but if this is the case then there is obviously an occurrance of somebody deceiving his own people in his greed for power and his extremistic opinion that his way of life is the correct one.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Does anyone else see echoes of a certain US election?!

Ahem... anyways... we can't really be sure since we aren't there... but I know there are some Russian people on the board - it'd be interesting to hear their views too

xx


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mtbeer
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

mtbeer

ARRRR!
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 529
Posted:A close friend of mine is about to move to the Ukraine to fulfill U.S. immigration requirements for his wife. They have family there that say corruption is so prevalent that it is just assumed. When the police bust you for a violation they say "we can do this the normal way or the legal way". The normal way being a payoff and the legal way being a nice long vacation in a small room.

I hope we don't see a civil war break out because things are not looking pretty.


"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Well, here's todays update...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4040581.stm
br>
(Notice in the little info box of 'Western opposition to the election' - Abuse of state resources and "overt media bias" in favour of Mr Yanukovych... hmmm.)

I'm going away until Tuesday, but I'd really appreciate it if anyone who's interested in this story could post some regular news links to the events in Ukraine - I'll check them out when I get home smile


For those who are interested in why this election is a big deal:

By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website

The crisis in Ukraine has thrown up sharp differences between the West and Russia over the future of a country which could one day be the border between the European Union and Russia itself.

Therefore, this crisis is important for what it says about relations between the West and Russia as much as for what happens in Ukraine itself.

Many Western governments see Ukraine as a piece of unfinished business. Ukraine has taken some steps in the right direction, they think, such as giving up its nuclear weapons, but it has not fully emerged into the democratic light of day as some of its neighbours, like Poland and Hungary, have.

The fact that Viktor Yanukovych was declared the winner without the investigation into possible vote-rigging as demanded by Western leaders will only add to the tension.

The US Secretary of State Colin Powell's forceful condemnation and his threat of "consequences" shows that Washington, after a cautious start, has decided to make this an issue.

The West would have preferred a different result but it could have accepted any fair result. It is making a loud noise about what is thought to be an unfair result.

Russian view

For Russia, and particularly for President Putin, on the other hand, Ukraine should be in its sphere of influence. Ukraine after all was where the Russia state itself began in the 9th Century and the idea that Ukraine should float off to join the EU and maybe even Nato is not a welcome one.

"In the last year especially, President Putin has been trying to re-establish Russian influence in the former Soviet states," said Margot Light, Professor of International Relations at the London School of Economics.

"He has been a disappointment to the West, which does not quite know how to deal with him at the moment.

"But it is not a case of 'win or lose' Ukraine for either side. Whoever leads Ukraine has to get on with both Russia and the West. Yanukovych is not a Milosevic figure. Ukraine is not like Belarus.

"What has angered the people is the way in which the election was held. I attended the parliamentary elections there in 2002 and the level of administrative interference is tremendous. This is a popular revolt against interference."

Unlike the revolutions in Serbia or Georgia, there is, however, a sense that even if Ukraine does not move wholeheartedly towards reform this time, it is not the end of the story. The narrowness of the result shows a groundswell in favour of further reform.

Unless suspected irregularities are checked into, there will no doubt be economic implications for Ukraine, which gets considerable EU aid each year, and any idea that it might want to move towards candidate status for membership would have to be put on hold.

The EU will have a chance of putting its views to President Putin himself at a Russia-EU summit in The Hague on 25 November.

Future

But Ukraine is not at the beginning of a revolutionary movement in the region. It is at the end of it. It is not a bellwether state. It is following a wind of change which has blown strongly elsewhere. So its importance is thereby somewhat diminished.

For some years, both the West and Russia were content that the country should feel its way forward slowly. It kept on good terms with both.

That ambiguity could not last for ever.

A result which is tainted by suspicion of fraud would make the thinkable - that Ukraine might indeed one day fully join the community of European nations - into the unthinkable again. Ukraine would remain a halfway house.


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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:My best friend here is from the Ukraine. (but is practically right on the border). Apparently, this happens all the time, and not to worry... Thenagain, he doesn't follow politics, or speak german to *hear* the political news. My host sis just did a project on it, and she and my host dad think a civil war is a major possibility right now. I don't know enough about it, and don't have time to read all the articles!!

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:*update as of monday morning*

My friend comes to me, and says no, it's not normal tongue His parents told him what was going on, and is a bit freaked out over it. In anycase, he's pro Ukraine.

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:What's pro-Ukraine?

Is that in support of the President or the opposition?

Anyways, thanks for finding out that stuff biggrin


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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:As in... He doesn't want the Ukraine to split up into West-'Ukraine'-Ukrains and East-'Russia'-'Ukraine'.

Doing that would suck. Majorly. The main bank in the Ukriane has stopped allowing people to change their currency into American $ because they fear the economy will drop... I mean, isn't their economy one of the fastest growing? Everything would get even more screwed up, and their people would fall farther into poverty (with millions there already).

I think this is a prime example of modern politics. Your vote isn't really counted, and everything is so corrupted, and this is what happens when both parties claim themselves winner. The sh!t hits the fan! And seems to be getting worse???

Written by:
When the police bust you for a violation they say "we can do this the normal way or the legal way". The normal way being a payoff and the legal way being a nice long vacation in a small room.




Hehe, funny that is. Apparently, if someone who is drunk is bothering you, you can beat them, and it's okay. And it's okay for women to have pepperspray, but not men. (Found that out while being bugged by a drunk/insane smelly bum-like man on the bus.)

And what's with the scars on what's-his-name's face?!? confused

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hellos.

Splitting a country is definitely not the way forward - as has been shown all round the world!

This is the latest update:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4058985.stm
br>
I would like to see a new election - if the president can win once, he can win again - otherwise, where is his mandate?


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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:I must say, I am extremely pleased that no fighting has broken out, or any serious rioting. Well, I haven't heard anything like that happening yet... If it has, then I'm kess pleased than I want to be!!

*wanders away to go read articles to see if anyone has died or something!*

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Nope, I heard it seems to be going rather well - a peaceful revolution peace

I am crossing my fingers it stays that way, that a reelection is called, and that the political leaders keep the welfare of their people at the forefront.


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Same as Dostoevskiy


Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...

Total posts: 54
Posted:Okay...

First of all I would like to thank you all for discussing this situation, because that means that you care.

I live in Moscow, and my mother is Ukrainian. Her two sisters with their families (my cuisines...) live in the Ukraine.

History.
We were one state (Kievskaya Rus').
Since the founding of Russian empire Ukraine became bi-polar. Western parts of Ukraine (Lvov) are under polish/catholic influence for centuries, eastern parts (Donetsk) are under Russian/orthodox influence. From that time situation never changed. Nevertheless Ukrainians (very much like Russians) managed to live peacefully together; taking good care of each other... they are a really wonderful nation.


Economics.
The lands of the eastern parts of Ukraine are much richer than the western parts. Theyve got coal, their way the black sea etc...
Western parts have got potential is tourism (beautiful architecture, Karpaty mountains for nice ski resorts etc...) but due to sick Kuchmas management western parts got nothing. So did the eastern.


Election campaign.
Foreign governments and big financists initially have played on supporting different candidates. As you know those are Yanukovich (Ukraines prime minister, supported by Russian government) and Ushenko (supported by soros,us&co).

It is really bad. You and I, we all know that it is bad for other guys to stick their nose into somebody elses business.
Us government and soros&co gave Ushenko lots of money. Russian government gave Yanukovich lots of political technologists and administrative support.

The elections.
Were the elections fare? We do not know.

Kiev in the streets.
People are fooled. It is really sad for me to say this but it is true. Several days ago I had a talk with my fellow politician who just came back from Kiev, and he said that it really is fantastic that hundreds of thousands of people can be united by one idea. But the idea they are united by is not the idea of Ushenko (leader of the opposition) being the president. Not Yanukovich.
They are more against Kuchma (the working president).

Candidates.
Yanukovich is a criminal.
Ushenko is a scum.
Timoshenko (Ushenkos #1 "comrade") - is socially dangerous. She is insane because she does not understand that shouting to a 100000 crowd that they should go and kill other Ukrainians will lead to a civil war, which is the most awful of all wars. She is under trial for bribing and only the immunity (as a member of parliament) keeps her out of jail.

People.

Ukrainian people do not want neither Ushenko, neither Yanukovich.
Ukrainian people hate Kuchma.
Ukrainian people are tired of politicians not giving them a chance to live a normal life.


There is just too much that I would like to tell you all, just it's hard to type at 5am local time.


My opinion.

I do not support Yanukovich because he is a criminal.

I do not support Ushenko and his party because they want to lead Ukraine to a civil war to divide it into parts.

It is a shame to me for Russian government and so much nasty things.
I am concerned of several western governments doing the same as the Russians.

A big part of my family is Ukrainian.

I pray for Ukraine. If you pray, pray for them.



peace to you all.


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Wow.

Thanks so much for sharing that Dostoevsky... it's great to hear from someone a bit closer to what's happening.

So what do you see as the best possible outcome? There is talk of a reelection on December 26 - I take it you (and the Ukrainian people?!) will not be happy with either candidate... but (like the american election) which candidate is the less dangerous?!

Have you spoken to your mother's family? What have they said about the situation?!

Anyways, take care and keep in touch
Clare xx


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Izte
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Izte

member
Location: Russia, France, Dauville

Total posts: 28
Posted:Nice to meet you smile Piter na svjazi! O4en rada, 4to zdes' nashelsa hot' odin 4elovek iz Rashki. Ti professionalno fireshow zanimaeshsa? wink ubbrollsmile

Intergalactic Parade

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Agreeing with firepoise here. Great to hear someone's opinion who has rather close connections to what's going on. (as well as someone who can speak english, and has some interest in politics... Artem has neither, but still is a good friend tongue)

And is that Russian written in roman letters? Eep. Umm, wait I know one, Privet. I think. confused biggrin

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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_So_
BRONZE Member since Feb 2004

Skinny poi maker
Location: Moscow, Russia

Total posts: 313
Posted:hi to everyone from another person who lives in Russia
And I'm joining Dostoevskiy in thanking you for discussing that.
But as long as everything has been said before, I would only say that the only important thing in this situation is to pray for the people of Ukraine - they need it. Because the country is the people. Its them who need normal life no matter what - no matter who is their president. We can only hope that this situation will lead to fair salvation of the problem.

Piece


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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:ditto

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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Same as Dostoevskiy


Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...

Total posts: 54
Posted:rememer in the fourth book of hitchhickers guide to galaxy they've talked about a planet, that was populated by humans and ruled by reptiles. (not that i got smth against reptiles but nevertheless) and they had democracy, each time voting for the reptile they don't like, 'cause if they don't the other reptile (that they don't like eather) will win the election.

it will be the same.

don't know who'll win. probably the former-supported-by-russian-government candidate, 'cause in the southeastern parts there's more population (the parts originally for yanukovich)

we'll see.


actually the situation changed into the better side these days.
the revolting parties managed to change the constitution of ukraine, giving more power to the parliament (taking power from the president). why am i considering it a god sing? ukranian political backgroung has a strong institute of political parties, so changing slightly towards parliamentarism might do good.


NEVERTHELESS BOTH OF THEM ART SCUM.


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Thanks for the update... it's good to hear what's going on in the Ukraine, especially as it appears to have dropped off the international news agenda.

The election is scheduled for December 26, isn't it?! Good luck to all Ukrainians, I hope you get a president who is worthy of the position - maybe that's impossible - perhaps anyone who actually wants to be the leader of any country should be automatically discounted.

Good luck anyways, and let us know how it goes!

hug


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:As expected, Mr Yushchenko was victorious this time round. The west are delighted (no surprise there), and Mr Yanukovych is vowing to bring the decision to the courts.

So, Black Muffin and Dostoevsky - when this all started there was fear of bloodshed and violence, but it worked out for the best, with a peaceful rerun of the election - do you guys have any comments now? What do you reckon is best for the country?

Take care xx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4129347.stm


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