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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Poor Stone Evanglists or shopping channels sounds like a no win situation. Thank God for my SciFi channel.

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

Pele, we�re all 's here

I believe Jesus was a man and I believe the stories. Given the time frame, I think that there was much room for error in the conversion oral accounts into the old testament, but even if the oral stories of Jesus weren�t written for a number of years following his death, I don�t think they were that much out of proportion. Though there was certainly room for embellishment. I never think much about Jesus returning to passively save the world. In my mind, it would be more like some armegeddom and the final judgment.

vanize, thanks for the history lesson, and the information on the Muslim separation.

God is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator� Sounds like the Old Testament creaking in the grave

Fair enough, nearly_all_gone, and I hope this helps Burning Brain, because now I�m out of my depth. From a philosophical perspective, "God" is the infinite Creator and Ruler of the universe. Perhaps, as you pointed out, I was referring to personal subjective interpretation, in that I was having a cheap shot at the �fire and brimstone, God of vengeance�, that I was threatened with as a kid.

Now, even if I�m rejecting the foundations of my religion , I feel Christ did more than elucidate; I think he opened a new door, to a world free from many previous prejudices.

lol Gidg, thank for the sympathy

Wonders if Blakes 7 is still watch watching.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

nearly_all_gone, for sure your personal perspectives have been constructive, and thought provoking. Though, I�m not sure how to respond to your query �It seems to me like Christianity (with a capital C) has less to do with this thread than was initially presented�..�

So, I�ll just say that a range of definitions of a Christian were presented from dictionary dot com. The first defines a Christian as professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

I would expect that many Christian believers would be a little subjective in their interpretation of Christianity. Like, they have their own personal belief, in addition to the dogma. This got me wondering if the Old Testament was a part of all Christian religions. How do Celtic Christians, for example, view the Old Testament?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

I agree with everything Lisa just said... but I think Irish was reintroduced a bit earlier than the 70s - probably around 1898/1904 (at least, that's what my Anglo-Irish teacher said )

It's all down to Yeats
"Irish re-entered the lives of the privileged classes with the advent of the Gaelic Revival. In 1893, Douglas Hyde (�ire's first President) founded the Gaelic League to inspire enthusiasm for Irish among those who didn't speak it. The League aimed to spread the everyday use of Irish as part of a larger project of de-Anglicization. W.B. Yeats and Lady Gregory (also JM Synge) count among Hyde's admirers; to help the cause, they founded the Abbey Theatre in Dublin for the promotion of Irish playwrights."

Getting to the other side

Thanks Faberg�, I wasn�t expecting such a detailed or enjoyable explanation of Celtic Christianity. I came across Celtic Christianity in a search for knots some time back. So in some respects it�s full circle for me.

Certainly, the appeal of Celtic Christianity is in the purity that has been lost by the main stream religions. As you suggested, it is a faith of tremendous depth and beauty, genuinely Christian, but distinct from its Roman Catholic and Protestant cousins. A panacea perhaps, not a black hole.

I have always had the belief that God and the world are one, and God works through nature, but when you say Christianity teaches that Heaven is here on earth. Do you mean early Christianity? I�ve always been taught that Heaven was up there (points finger to the sky).

I wasn�t aware the doctrines of Original Sin and Eternal Damnation were composed around the 400AD's. But on reflection, they had to come from some where. And, it�s easy to see that from a practical point of view, eternal damnation was necessary for the church to maintain control. I think another blunder the RC church made was to stop priests marrying. I�m told, from practical point of view, it had something to do with inheritance and protection the churches wealth.

I�m not sure where things started to go wrong, but go wrong they did. It�s a fair point when you say that things started to go seriously wrong ~ 400AD's.

Like vanize said earlier �for 300 years and all is fine and good, then they get a little power (well, a lot actually) and suddenly everything starts sliding downhill almost immediately.�

nearly_all_gone, for someone who professes not to be a Christian, it makes me wonder if they have an affinity with Gnosticism?

Firepoise, I like Yeats, have I missed something? Again

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Getting to the other side

Thanks Stone

Glad you enjoyed it, I'm quite enjoying this whole thread too

Just a couple of quick facts on the doctrines of Original Sin, if you're interested.....

At the turn of the 4th century AD, a British theologian named Pelagius held ideas about free will, grace, and original sin that provoked strong opposition from a monk called (modern day Saint) Augustine.

Pelagius believed humans were born with the freedom to choose their actions and could therefore choose not to sin. Children were born free of sin. They were not bound by the sin of Adam, which affected only Adam, not all humanity. Adam was created mortal, and whether or not he sinned, he would have died. Humanity did not die together with Adam, or rise together with Christ. The law as well as the Gospel offered a way to God. The main point was that humans could achieve salvation on their own, without the grace of God or the redemption of Christ.

In response, Augustine argued that while Adam was created with the power not to sin, he lost it by sinning. Adam left bondage to sin as a heritage to his descendants - all humankind. Because humans are born with free will but not with the power not to sin, they need the grace of God and the redemption of Christ to be saved. Salvation comes entirely by the grace of God. God gives that grace to those God elects, not necessarily according to merit.

Augustine believed that all sexual relations, including sexual relations between a husband and wife, was sinful, and that only perpetual virginity was the way to remain sinless. He believed that Original Sin was transmitted to babies via parental sexual activity, thus necessitating baptism and lifelong faithfulness to the church.

Like Vanize said, it was all about power. If the goodness of God's grace is restored to all, then what is the point in adhering to the teachings of the church in the first place? What of a pagan who does good and a Christian who fails to do good? Surely in order for the church to maintain it's power and control, paganism must be obliterated as evil itself.

Claims of heresy were laid against both men. At the Council of Ephesus in 431AD Augustine was vindicated and Pelagius condemned, ex-communicated and decreed a heretic. The Augustinian doctrine of sin and grace was thus approved by the Roman church and even until this day, babies who die before baptism are not permitted to be buried on consecrated ground

Humanity seems to have a terrible habit of siding with the wrong guy......

Written by: Stone

I have always had the belief that God and the world are one, and God works through nature, but when you say Christianity teaches that Heaven is here on earth. Do you mean early Christianity? I've always been taught that Heaven was up there (points finger to the sky).



I'm RC by default, but I'm not religious at all, so maybe I'm wrong there. I'll also admit to never having read the bible. I had thought that "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" meant that Heaven is here on earth. Other the other hand though, I could be just mixed up with that Belinda Carlisle song

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

Written by: Firepoise

No, no not at all.

But Irish as a language (and the culture itself) started to be revived at the turn of the last century, primarily through the work of Yeats, Lady Gregory and other poets and playwrights of that particularly creative time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterrising/prelude/pr02.shtml
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http://www.gael-image.com/doras/irishgaelic.html




Hi Clare

I totally agree, but that's not what I was talking about. I mentioned the "popular resurgence of Celtic pride" which started in the 70's.

The Gaelic League had been set up to protect the language, however it took decades before the population as a whole, and particularly the working classes, developed an interest and pride in their ancient heritage.

Your quote speaks for itself "Irish re-entered the lives of the priviliged classes with the advent of the Gaelic Revival"

Much of what we now know of the Celtic era has only been discovered in the last couple of decades.

But that's I know, so I'll shut up now....

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

Oh ok then, I had always imagined it had been growing steadily since it's base with Yeats, Gregory and the rest.

I stand corrected

And back away from the thread

Getting to the other side

when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

Thanks Faberg�, it�s been a long time since I�ve thought about original sin. I hadn�t heard of Pelagius, and I�m a bit blown away by the whole thing. The premise, that sex is sinful, seems to have caused much harm in the church. It just goes against the whole natural process, and I would suggest especially in Ireland where I�m told they have all those interesting shapes monoliths and mounds. I suppose one question that springs to mind is, if humans could achieve salvation on their own, why did God send Jesus?

I was always told that un-baptised babies went to limbo, but I wasn�t aware until now, that they were not permitted to be buried in consecrated ground. Suicide being the one sin, I remember that barred buried on consecrated ground

The edict that �God gives that grace to those God elects, not necessarily according to merit� has always been a contentious issue; well with me anyhow. It reminds me of a Dave Allen joke, which goes along the lines of someone asking St Peter at the pearly gates, what�s that place over there? St Peter replies that place is for the Catholics; they think they�re the only ones up here (heaven).

I hadn�t connected the above edict with maintain power and control over pagans either. I just thought the church grew stronger by absorbed pagan churches and rituals, as part of their quest to convert the world (perhaps it�s the same thing). I used to connect pagans with witches and satanic rituals, but really pagan just means country-dweller. One has to wonder what the world would be like now if God had sent his only begotten daughter, instead of a son. .

Hi Dostoevskiy, thanks for your good advice from vodka-country

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

What happened to the Goddess? Very good point Stone



(be forewarned, this is rather long )



"In the beginning there was Isis, Oldest of the Old, the Goddess from whom all becoming arose." -- Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs



Asherah, believed to be the consort & beloved of Yaweh, was worshipped for centuries throughout the ancient Middle East. She was known as the Goddess of Healing, God-the-Mother, and her staff encoiled by 2 snakes is still used as the modern universal symbol for doctors, pharmacists & healers.



She was removed (for reasons of which I'm not sure) from the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures somewhere around 400 or 500 B.C. Daughter of Zion, a term found numerous times in the Old Testament, is widely accepted to be a term for a priestess of Asherah. Those that thereafter clung to her worship paid the price with their lives at the hands of King Josiah.



Archaeological findings have also shown that for about 3000 years the ancient Hebrews worshipped female deities which were later eradicated only by extreme pressure of the male-dominated priesthood. Perhaps it began with the Rabbinic hierarchy, which included a complex hierarchy of laws that only allowed men to be priests.



The Vatican also has a long-standing tradition of fabricating its own history as it went along.



(Emperor Constantine, responsible for the founding of the Catholic Church, burned the records of 300 years of Greek philosophy, along with Christian writings that did not fit his ideas for the new religion)



I practise tai-chi, and am a firm believer in Yin & Yang. I believe a masculine force must have a balancing force to exist -- a female counterpart. If we are to believe that God is whole, and the creator of male and female, then it is reasonable to assume that God possesses traits of both masculine & feminine.



I find the mainstream Christian Church's definition of Mary as a virgin, the Blessed Virgin Mother somewhat insulting. In relegating her role to the "immaculate" and sexless, we find an account of her life that denies that she gave birth to other children, had more than one lover, and that she even had sex. In stripping her of this humanity, she is lowered to the role of a frigid mother, rather than the Goddess of all creation. If we are to accept a God of balance and completeness, there must be a partnership of divine male and female energies.



But, if Mary, who was said to be "low" in the social hierarchy of her time as a woman, also Jew, and one born into poverty, was chosen by the divine partnership to give birth to divinity, wouldn't such a role reversal topple the norms of the time, and introduces an opportunity for power arising from "below"? This is dangerous scenario for many, including the church. It could perhaps also threaten the divine right of Kings, and introduce the idea of partnership into worship. In such fashion, we would be defined in equal relationship to one another, rather than by adhering to arbitrary standards from one with higher status. Those at ground level are empowered, and those at the top of the hill are asked to make room. Power would no longer be consolidated. The church would be redefined from that which codifies law, to a community in equal and loving relationship.



And what a preposterous concept that would be...



[/rant]



Perhaps I'm wrong, but in my opinion the Christian church portrays God as a male chauvinist...







p.s. These are my personal opinions & beliefs. By no means do I intend to insult or offend anyone who's beliefs differ from my own

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

Thanks for that Lisa...

Getting to the other side

Once again, thanks for sharing you thoughts Faberg�

I�m interested because it seems obvious that something is out of balance within the church, and has been for a long time. I often speculate about this misogynous attitude by the church, and wonder if the result has been the many cases of abuse that have surfaced in recent years. soapbox:

I have felt the Mary was undervalued by the church, and I see your point on the virgin birth. I had just accepted that it would be difficult to suggest that Jesus was God, without delineating him from Buddha any of the other great prophets, without a virgin birth. Though, surprisingly enough, I believe that a virgin birth is possible (well a virgin conception anyhow).

Now I suppose I�m getting lost again, because this leads to questions about St Brigid (Saint or Goddess) being worshiped as the Virgin Mary. Anyhow, I have learnt much from your explanations. Here are some of Marion Zimmer Bradley�s Thoughts on Avalon. I hadn�t made the connection with Malory, but many consider Le Morte to be an important reference.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Never hold your farts in! They travel up your spine, go into your brain and that's where shitty idea's come from.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

I think I scared everyone away!

Nah, I had another quite lengthly reply half ready and then lost it. Don't you just hate when that happens

At work now, so I'm a busy little bee..... be back soon though....

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Thanks vanize, that makes sense. I think I�ve heard bits that story before, but I didn�t really think much about it, because I�ve never questioned the existence of Jesus. Sometimes, it�s the simple truths that can change our lives, and as you say, there really is not that much evidence that Jesus did walk on water.



Following on from the Jesus story, then I suppose that could lead one to question the existence of God. And where does that leave all the dispossessed Christians like me? Stranded on the path to one of the many neo-pagan religions? Though, perhaps it�s due to conditioning, but I have a lot of trouble relating to terms like gnostic, pagan or wicca, for example.



So, was there a schism or something that separated belief in the old ways from Christianity or did it just happen gradually? Like I remember reading somewhere that the gnostics were eradicated by the Roman Church in the 4th and 5th centuries.



Hi Ade, good points. I hadn�t realized the full significance of distorted historic writings, until recently, when I read Marion Zimmer Bradley�s �Thoughts on Avalon� (link above).

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.