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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok, one for the Christians.

Perhaps they shouldnt have all those TV evangelists littering early morning television when I get home form clubbing. But, it never ceases to amaze me how these guys can go on about how they follow the teaching of Jesus, and how great Jesus is and all we need to do to find salvation is follow the word and works of Jesus. Which is fair enough, Jesus was/is a great inspiration.

But hey, then these evangelist types start quoting all this Old Testament stuff about God. Which they manipulating to suit their tainted views of how the world should be, and how people should behave. And they go on about all this creationist rubbish and how homosexuals are and abomination and all the usual narrow minded stuff.

I mean, Jesus was the son of God made man, and his teachings were spot on. Like his lessons about The Good Samaritan, The Prodigal Son, The Wedding Feast etc. etc. Jesus cared for the people. He helped the lepers, the prostitutes, the blind, and he inspired us all to be better people. But this is NOT what evangelists and fundamentalists inspire. They are self-serving and only inspire guilt, hate and prejudice.

I find this very confusing because a Christian is person who follows the teachings of Christ, not some Old Testament rubbish about a fire and brimstone God.

For example, definitions of a Christian from dictionary dot com:

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane

So, I suppose the question is how can these evangelists types justify themselves as Christians, because the dont follow Jesus' teachings in any way, shape of form?

My personal opinion is that if Jesus walked the earth today he would strike down these philistines, and kick them out of the temple.

What do you think?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:From a purely philosophical perspective, God is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator (and, in some arguments, maintainer).



My understanding was that Christ is supposedly his physical embodiment on earth... the voice of God amongst men, doing God's will and "spreading the good word". So God and Jesus are in fact one and the same entity, and to love one is to love the other, to have faith in one is to have faith in the other.



But I'm probably wrong. I'm not a Christian. [/meddling]

EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1101427315)


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Bretch


Bretch

enthusiast
Location: Cork, Ireland at present

Total posts: 247
Posted:Nope, I think your right, but then, God also made us.. so does that mean if you don't believe in God, you don't believe in yourself????

I used to be indecisive, but I'm not so sure now.....

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Gidg
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

Gidg

Super Gidg!!!!
Location: Portland Oregon USA

Total posts: 8506
Posted:I have to admit that determining what the whole Bible is, is difficult. I am positive that there were letters and historical accounts that should have been included and have not. I also believe that there is text that have yet to be discovered that would help clarify passages in our current Bible along with raising so many more questions. But like every other religion, we have to have faith that those people that have put the Bible together have been lead by God to select specific texts to help us with our faith.

One thing that I am sure of though. All religions and/or beliefs on this earth have the same problem when it comes to people that use the writings of that faith for their own benefit. It is up to the people that follow the faith to try and understand it to the best of their ability. One of the biggest problems is that its so much easier to follow someone who tells you what its all about than trying to find out what its really all about yourself.


Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Written by: Faberg


has anyone read the book "the holy blood and the holy grail"?



<snip>



anyway, the book goes on to suggest that he was married to mary magdelene, and that she fled with his child to france (and there is quite a lot of evidence of this) after his death, and that his child, his bloodline, is in fact the holy grail. and not some cup that may have been used at the last supper



the story follows many mysteries & secret societies throughout history which are all somewhat interlinked, from the ancient merovingian kings of france, to the crusades and the knights templar, to the cathars, to the stewarts of scotland and right down to modern day freemasonry









Sounds just like The Da Vinci Code to me! Is the book fiction, or reference?


HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Its actually one of the three books that he used to write the Da Vinci Code

he lists them in the book.

Have a look at the chapter when the go to visit yer mans house (the expert guy with the servant). He see's three books on the shelf and lists them. This was the only research done to write the Da Vinci Code.


Love is the law.

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Thanks ado-p smile I will try to locate that reference book - that kinda stuff really floats my boat.

HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:I read that in
This Book - The Truth Behind the Da Vinci Code

Its a good book, Strips away the fiction and lists out the verifiable facts.


Love is the law.

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Stone


Yes vanize, the role of the church is a good point. Somewhere along the line after the crucifixion and before the great schism, there was real Christianity. When you say all churches have been excommunicated from the church, you mean form the Roman Catholic Church. For some reason, I find the story of Mary and the virgin birth somehow pagan in nature. So, what happened, how did the church become so tainted?







actually, I wasn't even thinking of the protestant churches being excommunicated by the roman catholic church, but further back than that - in that schism where what is now eastern orthodox split from what is now roman catholic, they each excommunicated each other in matching political moves. and following some (perhaps too basic) logic, all churches derived from either are therefor also excommunicated by one or the other, even before any additional excommunications. Heck, even Mormons are essentially hand-me-downs from roman catholicism, and thereby hertics by the accords of eastern orthadoxy.



As an aside, note that the muslim faith split off from christianity just before the big schism mentioned earlier and therefor also regard Jesus as 'merely' a human prophet. (frankly I think it is much more impressive for a son of man, rahter than a son of god, to have made such a singularly large splash in history).



And if you ask me, all christians (except mormons) break a commandment by conducting regular idol worship (what is the cross if not an idol?).



But even the mormons tread on dangerous commandment breaking ground by putting Jesus up as the front man of their religion. They will say of course that this is the same as worshiping god because he is god (that whole trinity thing, which I still fail to understand). But you know what? - he's not, and history paints a pretty clear picture jesus was only a man, and it seems to me that god is sure to know He Himself is not Jesus.



and where did religion go wrong? by letting politics in. Perhaps even before, but for sure by the time Emperor Constantine converted and made christianity the official religion of the roman empire in 306 AD, it was doomed. In about 100 years, christians went from being a fairly coheasive group (atleast that's how early christians are dipicted) to getting well into their political and philosophical fracturing in to islam, roman catholic, eastern orthodox, etc.. 300 years and all is fine and good, then they get a little power (well, a lot actually) and suddenly everything starts sliding downhill almost immediately.



Religion cannot assume the reign of political power without becoming hopelessly lost to itself and crushed into an unrecognizable form by the weight of it all. Power corrupts, and religions are twice as succeptable to this trueism.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: flash fire

Written by: Faberg

has anyone read the book "the holy blood and the holy grail"?

<snip>

anyway, the book goes on to suggest that he was married to mary magdelene, and that she fled with his child to france (and there is quite a lot of evidence of this) after his death, and that his child, his bloodline, is in fact the holy grail. and not some cup that may have been used at the last supper

the story follows many mysteries & secret societies throughout history which are all somewhat interlinked, from the ancient merovingian kings of france, to the crusades and the knights templar, to the cathars, to the stewarts of scotland and right down to modern day freemasonry





Sounds just like The Da Vinci Code to me! Is the book fiction, or reference?



flash, the book is not fiction. i first read it 18 years ago, so it was written long before the da vinci code.

the authors spent about 10 years on it too, so it is packed with many verifiable facts and references, but they are careful not to demean jesus or christianity in any way

another great read by the same authors is "the temple and the lodge", which links freemasonic lodges with America's founding fathers.

Written by: Stone
BurningBrain, until recently I did think that the bible was historically accurate, but the accounts from the bible don&#8217;t match the archeological evidence. I was under the belief that freemasons were the builder of the pyramids.



Stone, have you read the "Hiram Key" by Christopher Knight, who is himself a mason. this delves into the origins of freemasonry and traces it right back to the time of ancient Egypt, Moses and the Exodus and the founding of the Temple of Soloman in Jerusalem.

i for one believe that there is an alternative world history wink


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:God is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator. Whats that I hear, nearly_all_gone? Sound like the Old Testament creaking in the grave.

Fair points Gidg, and we really have to figure it out for ourselves. When you talk about the Bible, are you thinking about the Old Testament, or the whole Bible?

Actually vanize, I was also thinking of the split from what is now roman catholic. What was it called then? I only know The Church of Rome. Didnt know about the muslim splitting.

Well to those who view Jesus as 'merely' a human prophet; you have to have faith wink The idol thing is very RC, just ask Martin Luther.

Religion cannot assume the reign of political power without becoming hopelessly lost to itself and crushed into an unrecognizable form by the weight of it all. Thats some heavy stuff there vanize. So, whats you take on the way fundamentalist christians are taking power in the USA, Australia and most probably other countries?

lol Faberg, an alternative world history. Yes for sure there is, for sure. Good point. Theres certainly an alternative world history to the one I was taught in the roman catholic school system. The "Hiram Key" Im hooked by the title already.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Stone


Actually vanize, I was also thinking of the split from what is now roman catholic. What was it called then? I only know The Church of Rome. Didnt know about the muslim splitting.



Well to those who view Jesus as 'merely' a human prophet; you have to have faith wink The idol thing is very RC, just ask Martin Luther.



Religion cannot assume the reign of political power without becoming hopelessly lost to itself and crushed into an unrecognizable form by the weight of it all. Thats some heavy stuff there vanize. So, whats you take on the way fundamentalist christians are taking power in the USA, Australia and most probably other countries?







well, there have been many many splits - some of the big ones (as viewed now, as opposed to at the time) include many middle eastern christians becoming muslims once they added the profet mohammed to early christianity and did a few 'reforms'. Immidiate split of that into Sunni's and Shi'ites once mohammed dies (Islam was political from the start, so never stood much of a chance once its original charismatic leader was gone in my opinion). Another was when the eastern orthodox split off. another came in the middle ages with the advent of 'anti-popes' (though I think that one finally settled down thanks to a few well placed assasinations if my memory searves me correctly). then there was the "Reformation" with all that Martin Luther and other protestant stuff, which is actually fairly recent in term of the other ones (can't remember dates on this one, but like 300-400 years ago?).



Want to know my take on it? well... Actually, just go pick up a copy of "the Handmaid's Tale" (by Margret Atwood) if you want to know my worst fears. That has the potential of being close to a true story in under a decades time if we don't watch it.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Gidg
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

Gidg

Super Gidg!!!!
Location: Portland Oregon USA

Total posts: 8506
Posted:I'm talking about the whole bible, old and new testament. In my mind they can not be separated. With the prophecies of the old testament fulfilled in the new and the teaching references of the old in the new you need both for a real understanding.

About text that have been found, or will be found, that aren't in the Bible? I believe that it is both old and new testaments. But once again we have to have faith that God guided those people that put the specific books together that we call the Bible.

It all comes down to faith and a more complete knowledge of what is written. We have to have faith in the leadership/evangelists God has given us but we have to have the knowledge and revelation to see when they have gone off the teachings.

Now I'm just repeating myself, so I'm off.


Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:been a while but ive been on thatnksgiving break. not too much time away frm my friends at home to go on HoP.

anyway stone...yes the bible was written for a reason. Most of it was for political power. back in the day there were these guys called court prophets and cultic profits. he court prophets were no better than your modern day yesman except to the king. the king would ask 'how am i going to do in this war' and they would respond 'Yahweh is with you'. now the cultic prophets were all about the established religious cult. Now it was not a mistake that these people existed in the time when the compilation of writting, the bible, was put together.
IF you look at the bible closely you will notice that at some points it says to centralize the worship near the king. and other parts of the bible says that worship should be on the high places (such as the mountain were Moses made his covenant with god and recieved the 10 comandments).
I think its pretty obvious that the court prophets wanted to give more power to the king by writting up in the bible that God says to worship around him. It would give the phrophets more power. While the cultic prophets (those who governed the shrines at the high places) wrote up their own little piece for their own power.

I would say that the stories in the bible were real, we know this from corroberating documents from other nations. So, much of the bible is actually historically sound. They did write what they wrote so you can only learn from that. It doesn't really matter what really happened, but we can learn from what they wrote.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone

From a purely philosophical perspective, God is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator (and, in some arguments, maintainer).

My understanding was that Christ is supposedly his physical embodiment on earth... the voice of God amongst men, doing God's will and "spreading the good word". So God and Jesus are in fact one and the same entity, and to love one is to love the other, to have faith in one is to have faith in the other.

But I'm probably wrong. I'm not a Christian. [/meddling]



Im sorry but i can only disagree with this. I think God is everything. Good and Evil. There is a balace there. If you look at human society you will see the same balance, there are good people, and evil people. To say that one human is god, in this sence of god, can only be wrong. Jesus was sent as someone to balace the world. I dont think its a mistake that alot of people hated him, because he was a really good guy, and therefore based on the above someone or a group has to his goodness with their badness. I think its amazing that he came just as the greatest empire in history also came into power...Rome. Now what does that mean? Was Jesus as powerful as the Roman empire? I think yes, why else would we be talking about him today.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by: Stone
Sound like the Old Testament creaking in the grave.



Ok you may have to good points but creaking in the grave. Are you implying that the old testament has no say in modern religion. If you are then you should aquaint yourself some other religions other than Christianity. maybe i dont understand the quote...please expand on on this or...something.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:re the old testament - how many times is evil mentioned, as opposed the the number of times it is mentioned in the new testament?

Its a small point that hints at some shift in thinking (or whatever) between the old and the new testaments...

shrug


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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:um, in the old testament it says evil quite a few times. i would say every chapter of judges it says that the isrealites 'did what was evil in the eyes of the lord' almost every chapter. also in kings you see this pattern as well. New testament i have not read but i think it is based on the covenant that implies that it does not matter what a person does just as long as they can fess up to it. So evil can be seen as not that much worse than good, in the eyes of god.

please dont go out and do evil based on a religious belief by the way. God will forgive you but there is still no justification for it.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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BurningByron


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 340
Posted:Burning Brain,
For a moment there, I thought someone might have stolen my name!!!!

The only thing I know to be true is that "I" (as a point of awareness) exist. Everything else is a guessing game starting with the assumption that our perceptual senses show reality and not some creative offshoot of our thoughts or some false reality that does not exist.

I agree with most of you that Christianity can be seen as pretty stupid BUT it does serve a purpose in that it provides meaning to the lives of millions of people as well as stability in society through moral grounding. The mistake is to assume that this is the only way to acheive these benefits. Islam, Buddism, Scientology(?) etc etc etc also provide these same benefits. The question is NOT which is right and which is wrong but more so which serves to evolve humanity the greatest...
Each of faith will then get up on their soapbox and shout about how this scripture shows this evidence and blah blah blah which then proves that they are correct blah blah blah...
I am sick of hearing quotes from texts as evidence!!! Scriptures prove nothing!!! They are words on paper!!! Use scriptures as a source of wisdom rather than a source of evidence to prove what you believe is correct and what others believe is wrong.

If I write a book "because god told me to" and in the book write the words "this is gods words and everything else is pooo" does this then make my book as valid as the bible???

If I am willing to die for my beliefs does that make my beliefs true???

If someone elses is willing to die for their beliefs does that make my beliefs any less true? (given our beliefs are different)

There are millions of people out there who would mutilate themselves if they believed god told them to do so, my beliefs are not this strong, does this mean my beliefs are any less valid???

If a faith brings much happiness and joy to millions of people but also bring huge amounts of pain, suffering and disfunction to millions of other people, is this an acceptable faith we should strive to maintain??

How can two very intelligent people observe each other hold totally opposite beliefs and still not open their minds to the possibility that there is more to life than their own small reality has revealed to them???????????????


HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:wisdom is an island surrounded by a sea of ingnorance. the more you know the more you know you dont know. we only see our own world because that is all there is. we see what we see not what is presented to us. this is exactly what i mean when i say that the authors intentions can not be included in our interpretation (or what we get from the text). this world we see may be just a translation of our brains but we can only accept them (so if noone understands what faith is...)



and now... offtopic...i have no clue where i was going...crap, i just lost the game.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:wow burning byron.. what you wrote is precisely what i always want to write/say but can never get it out in words correctly..

good on ya!!

oh, and for the record, in case its not clear already, i agree. biggrin


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks vanize, thats interesting information on the Muslims split. The split I was thinking about was the great schism in 1054. I will keep an eye out for The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Not sure what to expect though.

Gidg, people keep saying things like But once again we have to have faith that God guided those people that put the specific books together that we call the Bible. But, did not God also give us Freewill? And what about Jeremiah 8:8, and the lying pen of scribes? Which I think fits in with what Burning Brain is saying about court prophets and cultic prophets.

Burning Brain, I dont think God is everything; both Good and Evil, as you suggest. I was always under the impression that the balance was b/t God and the Devil. I hadnt made the connection b/t the coming of Jesus and the Roman empire, but while we are still talking about him today, were also driving on Roman roads.I think the concept of confession, which you define as the covenant that implies that it does not matter what a person does just as long as they can fess up to it can be traced back to the scapegoat.

And yes, I am implying, that the much of Old Testament was made redundant following the birth of Christ, after all God sent his son to save mankind. From dictionary dot com: New Testament (Luke 22:20), rather "New Covenant," in contrast to the old covenant of works, which is superseded. "The covenant of grace is called new; it succeeds to the old broken covenant of works. It is ever fresh, flourishing, and excellent; and under the gospel it is dispensed in a more clear, spiritual, extensive, and powerful manner than of old" (Brown of Haddington). Hence is derived the name given to the latter portion of the Bible. So, I suppose what other religions, other than Christian, should I acquaint myself with?

Wise words BurningByron summed up with Scriptures prove nothing!!! They are words on paper!!! Use scriptures as a source of wisdom rather than a source of evidence to prove what you believe is correct and what others believe is wrong.

But, how do I get those evangelists of the telly?


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gidg
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

Gidg

Super Gidg!!!!
Location: Portland Oregon USA

Total posts: 8506
Posted:Totally correct with the freewill. We have the freewill to believe in anything we want, which may include the whole bible, parts of the bible, none of the bible, the local church preacher, the evangilist preaching on the corner or the palm reader down the street. And it's because of the court/cultic prophets that Burning Brain was talking about that we can not follow blindly. Which comes back to the evangelists.

Sorry Stone, no way you can get them off the telly. The only thing you can do is not turn to those stations.


Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:satan doesnt come into play until far into the old testament and even there he is not considered evil. and if you want to compare god and an angel...i dont think thats not fair either.
roman empire and jesus=came out of my ass, sounded good though didn't it smile

so i guess we just disagree, cant help that.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Yes Gidg, we have the freewill to believe or write anything we want. The problem with changing channels, is then I'm confronted with that that other major religion - shopping and the shopping channels wink



Burning Brain, Im told that God/Devil thing is a Christian thing, and during my catholic education I was taught that the devil was an angel gone bad. But I have always thought that in this world good was balanced with evil.



Anyhow, its an interesting suggestion, though perhaps one for another day. Did God Create Evil - Does the Bible Say So? God is not the author of evil. However, God does reward and punish on the basis of good and bad behavior. Therefore, God does bring judgment and calamity (either directly or through human authorities) on those who rebel. God will ultimately judge all people, since rebels will not be allowed in the new, perfect creation.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Wow!
What an amazing and respectful thread.

There have been so many thoughtful comments, and I simply can not quote them all.

I think that the bible is a wonderful fable, much like the tales of Anansi or Aesop. The stories in the bible really can serve to teach some wonderful things. It also serves to teach some negative as well.

I believe Jesus was a man. I believe the stories were blown way out of proportion as oral tradition tends to do, but with hints of accuracy, as well as adjustments for perspective and evolution along the way. (What I mean for perspective is that in Noah building an arc for all the animals, well, they believed the world ended at the horizon, so there is a good chance he did build a boat for the animals...in his portion of the world. And what I mean about evolution is for things like...the word virgin traditionally means unwed, maiden means "untouched"...linguistic evolution plays a huge hand in interpretations).

From what I have read and understand, Lucifer is a fallen angel, and those who went with him were condemned along with him. That was a fall over power. There are other things but since I can't remember if I read them in the bible, or which version of the bible, I will refrain from comment there.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are all the same. God, in the form of spirit, impregnated Mary to be able to inhabit the body of Jesus and walk the earth.

Actually, about the mormons there is such a dichotomy that blows my mind. The many that I know will be quite frank about jesus and his homosexual exploits (read where he is on trial and the man enters the room and claims "I *know* this man". It ain't talking about from a campfire chat) but then they will tell you that Jesus could fly like Superman. I was really perplexed in a good way.

In the end, Jesus really needs to never return. Beyond that there are millions walking around with his mode of death, and that of hundreds of other theives and murderers, on their bodies like some wonderful thing (I'd be pissed if I were him and not honored), it would not be good for our society.

Think about it. Millions upon millions who do not believe in him, wouldn't change thier minds. People who do would have even stronger convictions. Darwinists would want to study him for decades just to be sure and holy havoc and wars would break out.
I really think we only feel we need god because we have trouble finding faith in ourselves, or validation, or justification. Look at what happens when a person puts fake blood on themselves and calls themself a stigmatic. People do not wait for the church, or any other form of validation from god, and they don't listen to those of us saying "Can't you see, its in the wrong place. It's already dried. It's not from the back." They pay $5 admission and weep at the "holy site". And in truth, who am I to tell them what they can and can not believe?
Humans, as an entirety, are beyond god and live with an illusion of necessity of him, for many, many reasons.

Does that mean that he, or they (depending on what you believe) is not there or does not exsist? Not at all. Just that he is not really needed any longer and that if the mesiah does return, I really don't think it would help the situation down here any.

But that is just my opinion.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Stone

Thanks vanize, thats interesting information on the Muslims split. The split I was thinking about was the great schism in 1054. I will keep an eye out for The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Not sure what to expect though.



ahh... that explains it - in my view, the causes of the great schism you refer to started back 600 years earlier when the nature of christ started to be debated. so we are talking about the same schism, but just using different events to say when it started. that explains a lot. The muslim faith separated from cristianity just before the arguement over the nature of christ began.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Stone

God is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator. Whats that I hear, nearly_all_gone? Sound like the Old Testament creaking in the grave.




Well, fair enough, but from a philosophical perspective (as I said it was) that's what the term "God" means. If you think of God as the first cause, that doesn't properly encapsulate what "God" is supposed to be, and therefore you can refute first cause arguments for the existance of God. It's fundamentally what philosophers mean when referring to God, not some personal subjective interpretation.

I wasn't having a pop. Besides, the Old Testament is part of Christianity. If you're rejecting it, it looks like you're rejecting the foundations of your religion, upon which Christ was elucidating (amongst other things).

I don't think I understand the criticism.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone
that doesn't properly encapsulate what "God" is supposed to be.



i agree with everything you said except this. i will try not to generalize the idea of god but im sorry if i did. the idea of god is subjective. this is why this thread will go on in circles for a long while and why i dont really want to continue with it. my opinions are here. and the only thing i want to say is wrong it the above quote. everyone else say what you want.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:But my whole point is that I'm giving the philosophical (ie generally held by philosophers who discuss it) definition of what God is meant to be. To philosophers in general, the Christian God is not subjective, the Christian God is supposed to be something concrete and real in the same way you or I are real.



I'll stay out of this, if I'm just pissing people off. I was trying to make a contribution but I'm sorry if I didn't.

EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1101836662)


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:ok I disagree.

no need to be sorry. you may be pissing people off but someone always will get pissed off. it would be just plain impossible for everyone to agree on such a matter.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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