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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok, one for the Christians.

Perhaps they shouldnt have all those TV evangelists littering early morning television when I get home form clubbing. But, it never ceases to amaze me how these guys can go on about how they follow the teaching of Jesus, and how great Jesus is and all we need to do to find salvation is follow the word and works of Jesus. Which is fair enough, Jesus was/is a great inspiration.

But hey, then these evangelist types start quoting all this Old Testament stuff about God. Which they manipulating to suit their tainted views of how the world should be, and how people should behave. And they go on about all this creationist rubbish and how homosexuals are and abomination and all the usual narrow minded stuff.

I mean, Jesus was the son of God made man, and his teachings were spot on. Like his lessons about The Good Samaritan, The Prodigal Son, The Wedding Feast etc. etc. Jesus cared for the people. He helped the lepers, the prostitutes, the blind, and he inspired us all to be better people. But this is NOT what evangelists and fundamentalists inspire. They are self-serving and only inspire guilt, hate and prejudice.

I find this very confusing because a Christian is person who follows the teachings of Christ, not some Old Testament rubbish about a fire and brimstone God.

For example, definitions of a Christian from dictionary dot com:

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane

So, I suppose the question is how can these evangelists types justify themselves as Christians, because the dont follow Jesus' teachings in any way, shape of form?

My personal opinion is that if Jesus walked the earth today he would strike down these philistines, and kick them out of the temple.

What do you think?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:Yes, stone, i agree. Jesus preached love your neighbour, etc. This doesn't mean everything else is OK. Thassit. But to draw out someone cause we feel we (whoever that is) theneed to set them out as worse than anyone else is wrong.
Yes, Jewish faith does not belive that jesus was the savior, so they're still waiting.

Wonder Monkey. Hell was made for sin.
God prepared Hell for satan, who attempted to take over heaven, presumably during creation (i think). A kingdom divided will fall, so God cast satan to the earth, and a third of the angels(now demons) went with him. Somewhere during this the fall of man happened. Adam (and Eve) sinned against God, and nothing containing sin can survive around God. Problem. Man is now tainted with sin, and cannot live with God. A sacrifice was needed. this was an animal sacrifice, untill God sent his son jesus, who was faultless in every way. He died as a sacrifice for us, not deserving to as he was faultless in every way. This was the sacrifice to pay for our sin, so we can be with God when we die. Sin cannot exisit arout God, so we cannot enter heaven whist we are full of sin. That is why we need to accept Jesus as our saviour(the sacrifice to cleanse us of sin).
Do not think of hell as little demons jabbing folks with pichforks. Hell is separation from God. God created light. God created love. Hell is eternal death. Eternal pain.
Heaven is eternal life in the presence of God.

Where am i goning with this?
Oh yes. We cannot live with God in heaven, or even see God with physical eyes for we would die. kaput. If we die while sin rules (or fills) our live, we cannot enter heaven.
That leaves hell.
If God wanted people in hell, he would not have sent jesus.

By this stage, i am really tired and shall have to finish another day.

Oh, and don't ever feel the need to apologise. Unless you run over me or something. THEN apologies would be good...


ssssssssssup?


Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:More on wonder monkey's points. Jesus' coming to earth was not the final act. The final act will be when jesus returns to earth to collect his people, taking them to heaven.

For the scolars, the timing of this gets a bit tricky, cause at some stage, the tribulation occors, which is the worst persecution of christians ever seen. Some think this happens after Christ comes, and some before. But for now, its a tad irrelevent.
I'm way off topic here, but i'll fight on. wink

When Jesus left the earth (the first time) God sent the Holy Spirit down to earth to guide his people. This is talked of in acts, for those following at home.
I shall return... later.
peace too ya all...


ssssssssssup?


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Josh, I don't have a great biblical knowledge, but I thought Samaritans were despised even more than homosexuals, or if not then it was a humungus bridge to build. And that was the point.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


dafunkymahn
member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2005
Total posts: 54
Posted:In reply to Stone's reply to my own post and nothing else:


Stone, at this time I can not say with any degree of certainty weather or not Jesus condemned homosexuality as a specific topic of discussion, however I can confirm that in order to follow the greatest commandment, as said by Jesus "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, body and strength..." you can not do that as a homosexual, because God weather it was recorded in the New Testament or the Old Testament, views homosexuality as a sin.

Now here is where some Christians falter, and you are absolutely right it is wrong, they stop viewing the sin separate from the sinner. As a Christian one is called to love everyone. It is a hard thing to do, no doubt, but Christians are called to love everyone and hate all sin. Not only hate but flee from sin. Some Christians only see the sin, this is wrong and unchristian like. Jesus loved everyone, however, Jesus never displayed a love for sin.

Of course, the whole debate over homosexuality being a sin does not matter if one is not a Christian. I could never convince a homosexual that they are wrong without Christianity, or some other form of religion, I will not try to either. I personally believe there is no more sin in a homosexuals life than there is in mine, and I would not be absurd to say that there is probably more sin in my life than a homosexual.

Something that I have noticed, on the outside looking in, (and feel free to correct me on this) that there is less cheating, less adultry when it comes to homosexual relations than heterosexual relations. Rather interesting if I am right.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:funkyman



God never said homosexuality was as a sin, thats a myth. People are born homosexuals, so why would God create homosexuals and then tell them they are sinners. Doesnt make sense.



You also assume that the bible was written by God, which it wasnt. I dont see his name in the by line. No the bible was written by men, and even if these men were inspired by God, then perhaps they also, inadvertently, added some of their prejudices. A lot of the OT being related to tribal survival, not eating pig meat because of parasites etc.



Personally, I have no knowledge of homosexual relationships, apart from the stereo types you see presented by the media, so perhaps you should ask a homosexual. But I would like to ask u, bible aside, why are people so scared by homosexuality?



The bible is also used to support many other prejudices besides homosexuality. When I lived in a small country town passages from the bible were used to support white supremacy. Ive lost the quotes, but one had something to do with the tower of Babble. I thought it was absolutely disgusting that these so called church going Christians would use the bible in this manner.



God never wrote the bible, but did Jesus walk the earth as a man. The only reason people cling to the OT, and ignore the example set by Jesus, is that they can use the bible to support their own prejudices and income.



Amen


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:I'm not going to quote the verses that say homosexuality is sin. Just like i'm not going to quote the verses that say sex before marrige, lying, stealing, or doubting God is sin. However, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. No-one is born a homosexual, just like no one is born an adulterer! We're all born sinners, and God doesn't care which sin we enter into! Its all the same to Him! And yeah, I'm aware that some will tell you otherwise
Jesus (son of God, who taught the old testament in the synagoge) hung out with prostitutes, samaritins(which was majorly frowned upon by everyone) and gave His pefect life as a sacrice so we can be with God, in heaven, when we die.
Earlier it was said God doesn't do miracles anymore. I could tell you that the Congo isn't called the Congo anymore, because of years of civil unrest which has killed millions of civilians without most of the western world knowing it. You don't know, cause you weren't told! (John Safran fans will know ubbloco) There have been thousands of documented healings of aids in certain African countries (possibly Uganda?), Benny Hinn sees many people (deaf, cripples, blind, you name it) healed regualy at his crusades. Reinhard Bonke has raised people from the dead. David Hogan (missionary in southern america) doesn't allow pastors to join his mission team UNLESS they have raised people from the dead! They're there, you just don't hear about them! Mainly because its not popular media, but thats another thing altogether.
Why don't you see these thing happening a lot in oz or nz? Thats has to do with the state of the church.
Anways.
I hope my next reply won't take so long to come about...


ssssssssssup?


dafunkymahn
member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2005
Total posts: 54
Posted:Josh, man is not born a sinner, remember Jesus was a man and he did not sin, though he was also God, he was tempted just like a man.

Stone, since I have a degree of anonymity I will clue you and the whole world in on a little secret of mine. I am above and beyond addicted to pornography. To some that is not a big deal, to me it is, I am currently going to through a program called Pure Online. The leader of the sessions has gone through some things in his life that are really terrible and amazing at the same time.

If you really want to know about a man's struggle through homosexuality, sexual addiction, sexual acting out watch the video with the "free demo" link. It will only take a few minutes. They will not preach to you or throw Bible verses at you, and God really is not mentioned as often as you might think. Take 10 minutes out of your day and try to understand those on the other side of the fence from you. I am not trying to change your mind but perhaps key you in on the idea that you might be comming to the wrong conclusion about some things.


About people twisting things that are written in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, there are some sick people in this world Stone, but why do you blame everyone for the actions of the few? Should we persecute Germans for the Nazis? No, we should not, and to say that because someone calls themselves a Christian and then uses what the Bible says to cause harm and then say that all Christians are like that is just plain ignorance.

Written by:
God never said homosexuality was as a sin, thats a myth. People are born homosexuals, so why would God create homosexuals and then tell them they are sinners. Doesnt make sense.



By the way, I busted open my NIV Concordance and did a little research 1st Corinthians 6:9 says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders..." The list goes on another two verses.

I myself fit into two of those categories, sexually immoral and adulterer, so do not think that I judge a homosexual because look at me compared to them... in that verse alone I have two strikes against me where the homosexual might only have one.

Now if the above will not enter the kingdom of God, then God defiantly considers all that to be a sin. It is most defiantly not a myth. Unless somebody asks me to I will not get into salvation, I do not want to trample on someone elses right of freedom of religion.

But let me pose a question to you, why would God create someone if He never gave them a chance to be in Heaven with Him?

Leviticus 22:18 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"

There are 56 references to the word "sex, sexual" or "sexually" only 28 are found in the OT. I have not read them all, in fact I have only read about 8, but I have found two that condemn homosexual behavior. So to say that God does not consider homosexuality to be a sin is an incorrect assumption.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well Josh, thats where I think you are wrong. People are born homosexual, as are other animals. If God wrote the bible (even de-facto) then God would have known this. Whoever wrote the bible had little understanding of the human body.

I would suggest you could learn a lot by watching The Human Body Series by Professor Robert Winston. You can get it as ABC shops and it explains much about human sexuality. Its not the work of the devil, and Ill refund your investment if not satisfied.

I would suggest that the miracle AIDS cures occur in Africa out of ignorance. Ditto with the faith healings. Though, with the placebo effect running at ~25%, Im not going to come out and say its not possible to heal people with faith. But, raising people from the dead! NOT possible (if they were really dead). Men with godly powers, sounds satanic to me.

funkyman, firstly thanks for having the courage to share your story. I tried to get the demo to load but it just wouldnt work. But, I dont think homosexuality is an addiction and Im not sure how people qualify as being addicted to porn. I certainly dont think people should beat themselves up over natural urges; which are strong survival traits. And I dont know if you are feeling guilty for watching a bit too much porn or never leave the computer, and have spent heaps on sites.

Leviticus is the the law of the priests. And I would recommending the following article on the Moral aspects of Moses law.

The article does not support my case, but it does explain some of the discrepancies that we have been discussing, for example:

Written by:
It has always been freely admitted by Christians that the Mosaic Law is an imperfect institution; still Christ came not to destroy it but to fulfil and perfect it.

There is abundant evidence in Scripture itself that many portions of the Mosaic legislation existed and were put in practice long before the time of Moses. Circumcision is an instance of this. The religious observance of the seventh day is another.

It (Moses law) was suited to the low stage of civilization to which the Israelites had at the time attained; the severe punishments which it prescribed for transgressors were necessary to bend the stiff necks of a rude people; the temporal rewards held out to those who observed the law were adapted to an unspiritual and carnal race. Still its imperfections must not be exaggerated. In its treatment of the poor, of strangers

Christ is the author of the New Law. He claimed and exercised supreme legislative authority in spiritual matters from the beginning of His public life until His Ascension into heaven. In Him the Old Law had its fulfilment and attained its chief purpose.



cheers


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


dafunkymahn
member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2005
Total posts: 54
Posted:Wow that is really sad that you could not view the video, it would really help my point if you were to try to find a different computer to watch it on, perhaps a friend's. (The better your connection the better the video quality too) Just the story that is shared is important and would defiantly help you understand that I was not drawing a parallel from an addiction to pornography to homosexuality. Sorry, that part of my message does not make much sense unless you are able to view the video. So, like I said if you would please, try to find a way to view the video it would help matters a bit. The reason I brought up my addiction was to explain my connection to the site, once again it was not to draw a parallel to homosexuality. I am by no means perfect nor do I consider myself a better person simply because I am heterosexual vs. homosexual.

If you listen to Jeff Foxworthy we are all homosexual to a degree, I find his view humorous and do not take it past that, but I will reserve the joke to only a PM as it is not something that really should be discussed on an open forum.

Secondly, I gave both a NT and an OT scripture condemning homosexuality, regardless of Mosaic law it was still considered a sin by God.

The article you have posted an excerpt from does more to prove my point than yours. Jesus did not come to the world to destroy the law of Moses, but to fulfill it. However where I disagree with it and this is a major point but minor to our debate, Jesus' authority did not start at the beginning of his public life. Since Jesus is God, a part of the Trinity, his authority has always been.

Like I said, it is major point, but minor to our current topic. I honestly hope that I have been clearer this time around than my last post.



Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:We'll have to agree to disagree about people being born homosexual. A professor telling me otherwise is not going to help.
Sin is thought, word, and deed. How could we not be born sinners? Do you know your thoughts from the womb? Jesus was born AS a man, but not being the same as me because he was the son of God, and is the only one who could have lived a sinless life. And he raised Lazarus from the dead, by the power of God, not by satainc ritual.

Out of time, I'll be back.


ssssssssssup?


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:ok funkyman, I see what I can do to watch the video. Perhaps sometime you could take a peek at the Human Body Series by Professor Robert Winston.

Havent heard Jeff Foxworthy, but Ill risk a joke and suggest that he may have also meant our feminine side. As you know not all girls are girly-girly. How our sex is determined is a really complex process, especially as the prototype is female, and its only later during gestation that men become men. See the series for more info.

The point about the law of moses was, that as well a Gods laws, it also contained mans laws. No we can argue over which was wot etc, for sure. But do you recognise the distinction here?

Josh, good comments. But as you say men are not God, and I wouldnt expect them to have God like powers. I accept that some very spiritual people have healing abilities, but I cant think of a more God like power than power over life and death.

CuL8r smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


dafunkymahn
member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2005
Total posts: 54
Posted:Okay Stone I will PM you the joke and by the way, Jeff Foxworthy is a redneck comedian, redneck in a good way. Funny funny man.



Josh please tell me where in the Bible it says that babies go to hell if they die? Does an aborted baby go to hell? Do we think in the womb?



i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Here we go...

The Old Testament was written originally in Hebrew and is translated into many other languages. Hebrew does not translate well, and so all Old Testament texts are rather inaccurate to the original. in addition, the original Hebrew must be examined in connection with the Kabala to really see the full scope of the book. Hebrew letters also stand for numbers, the basic numerological premise being that two words with the same number must be identical in some way. In addition, many cryptological methods and permutations of the original Hebrew yeild astonishing results. For instance the first word in the bible in the original Hebrew when examined as such contains the holy trinity by some accounts, and much more. That's the FIRST WORD. Imagine the whole thing.

The New Testament was written in latin (or greek? One of them) originally, and the translation from the original latin to english and other languages is NOT, as has been suggested, guess work. Latin translates VERY accurately into other languages. Yes it is true that some of the language may have other connotations in the original, but many of those really transfer too as many of our words are BASED on latin. To say that the New Testament has been changed a lot by translation does not really hold true.

As for WOMEN in the Bible, the feminine has taken a huge hit from almost all religions and it is quite sad really. Removing the devinly feminine has obvious negetive aspects as has already been said. But the interesting thing is that people really think that the feminine is absent. The "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" does contain the feminine in the Holy Spirit. Never mind the parallels to creator, sustainer and destroyer for now in Hinduism (And in fact if you ARE Christian you really should read up on Bhakti Hinduism: they are virtually identical to you unless you get hung up on the Christ thing) In addition, someone mentioned that the "Plural of God in Genesis refers to the trinity". Interesting. Even more interesting is that you really seem to misunderstand what the word Elohim means. The original Hebrew, Elohim, is the MASCULINE PLURAL form of a singular, Eloh (I blelieve). But guess what the gender of that singular is? Tada, there's your feminine right element of God right in the language of Genesis. The feminine element was there.

The Dead Sea scrolls are interesting, as are the heretical gospels left out at the council of Nicea. They seem to show that there were many differing opinions and that the gospels (interesting, gospels are testamonials and yet people say they are the word of God... such a leap of faith) even present slightly differing views when you examine the non-canon texts.

Christians take certain things on faith, and necessarily so. Many have tried to show these things logically and all have failed. For instance, that Jesus Christ rose from the grave, and was a virgin birth, and the one I'm most interested in is the trinity. How can God be three things at once? It isn't possible, but must be taken on faith. To get into why would take to long for now, so I'll leave it at that until someone challenges me on the matter.

Jesus never said he was the son of God. SPECIFICALLY he did not, and for darn good reason. To say such a thing would have cause many problems and probably would have gotten him killed on the spot. They got him for it anyway through technicality, but he tried at least. He said he was the Son of Man. Take it how you will, I see it as he was trying to assert that he was human and not special in anyway other than his understanding. Now you will argue the whole "He said 'I am' when asked if he was identical with the prophesies of the messiah and that proves he was God because that's what God said in the old testament when asked who he was by Moses". Could he not have simply been implying that those prophecies were not about the object world, but within everyone? If he REALLY understood Judeism, as a human being, he was very familiar with the Kabala and the mystical traditions which hold some views similar to this. Anyway, just a thought.

I gotta go now but I'll stop back and discuss more later. There are several things on here I still need to address.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Finally, someone speaks out. Why else would women be forced to wear Burqas, Hajib etc ?



Islamist 'sex fear' underestimated



"THE west has failed to grasp the extent to which Islamic extremism is rooted in men's fear of women's sexuality, British author says in an interview to be published tomorrow.



Mr Rushdie told German weekly magazine Stern that his latest novel, Shalimar the Clown, dealt with the deep anxiety felt among many Islamic men about female sexual freedom and lost honour. When asked if the book drew a link between "Islamic terror and damaged male honour", Mr Rushdie said he saw it as a crucial, and often overlooked, poin..





From Herald Sun newspaper, Melb.





Run Rushdie Run.













19jan06 hehe wink

EDITED_BY: Stone (1137618307)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:lol, run where?

i'd be inclibed to agree, as far as i know the hijab is meant to be a womans choice as an example of moderateness, it was never meant to be forced upon them by males.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
If he REALLY understood Judeism, as a human being, he was very familiar with the Kabala



Kabbalah means Jewish mysticism. It is not a text. The most importanat text within Kabbalistic practices is the Zohar, though it also includes sections of the Talmud, Midrash and other Rabbinical texts.

Written by:
The Dead Sea scrolls are interesting, as are the heretical gospels left out at the council of Nicea. They seem to show that there were many differing opinions and that the gospels (interesting, gospels are testamonials and yet people say they are the word of God... such a leap of faith) even present slightly differing views when you examine the non-canon texts.




The torah itself is written by four different sounces, Yahwists, Elohim, Deuteronomists and Priests... Its why Genesis has the creation story twice, its two different groups of people writing . While the cannon of the torah was finished about 800bce - after a few hundred years of tailoring the sources to fit the society they were intended for - the dead sea scolls are a later text, hence their rejection from orthodox judaism. They also failed to generate sufficient following to start a splinter religion a la Christianity

As for excluding gospels... the Roman Catholic cannon excluded most of the possibilities, including the gospel of Mary Magdelene... They didn't want a woman to be so central to Christ's adult life so they excluded her testimony and called her a whore... Sort of an indication as to the way socio-cultural factors dictate orthodox religious doctrine.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


Dressed in Black
Dressed in Black

A Fire Inside
Location: portsmouth and sometimes oxfor...
Member Since: 28th Feb 2005
Total posts: 191
Posted:Stone --> read a book by Asne Seirerstad call The Bookseller of Kabul which gave an interesting perspective on how women feel about wearing Burqas, from the good to the bad to the ugly. Also offered an interesting view on censorship of the arts by the Taliban.

......pretty sweet book as well smile

i knew more about islam afterwards as well. WOW reading is good for you!


::: I LiKe pLeAsUrE sPiKeD wItH pAiN - MuSiC iS mY aErOpLaNe :::


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