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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
  Posted: I keep forgetting to ask this and now I don't have time to ask coherenlty as I need to run.

Can someone explain to me what the laws are for gay marriage between states and in federal terms?

Can a married gay couple in Massachusets (where gay marriage is legal) claim 'marriage' on their federal income tax? Can they on their Massachusets state income tax? If they move to Texas, can they claim it on their Texas state income tax?

What ARE the actual laws at this moment?

Health insurance in gay 'friendly' states? What if the insurance company is national? What about employment?

Grr... bell just rang... gotta run.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Mand
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mand

Keeper of the Spitfire
Location: Calgary Canada

Total posts: 2317
  Posted:I take that last comment back- not wanting to cause more arguments in this thread than there already are.

Lets steal a spaceship and head for the sun, and shoot the stars with a lemonade ray gun.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
  Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Follow the money trail... it's all about money. The purpose of marriage is to have babies, thus humanity can continue to exist. In case you Homosexuals don't realize it, it is an incredable financial burden to raise babies. That is why there are tax breaks for people who get married (man and woman) it's an incentive to get married. Marriage and children go hand in hand. It promotes stability (theoreticaly). Married male and female tend to have children more often than not. Children cost a lot of money to raise. So taxes are an extra burden which people who are trying to raise children have difficulting dealing with.



And I also intend to have children.

There's at least one AAP statement supporting same-sex parents.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
  Posted:Lighting, I wish you the best of luck. And the best of tax breaks after you succeed. hug

Mand, this whole thread was started about money issues. And I have heard more than one homosexual gripe about the "unfairness" of the monetary thing.

Orange. I am sorry to hear about your family's mis-fortune.

I really wish people could be less selfish, more understanding. Talk about things rationaly and with civility with eachother. And be more willing to compromise and make sacrifices (it is a two way street) for eachother. I hope things work out in the end for you.

That pretty much summerizes my observations of my friends who have gotten divorced.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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ASTRO FAERIE
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

ASTRO FAERIE

ummmmmmm.............
Location: Rotherham, UK

Total posts: 724
  Posted:Well im not getting into the money side or the laws as i find it all hard to take in.
All i know is that a couple who are in love should have every right to express that, i have a close friend who is wanting to marry his partner here in the UK, although they cannot legally marry, they are having a lifetime partnership ceremony, and treating it as a marriage as its the next best thing.
They are a great couple and truly love each other, and thats special, wether to a man with a man, woman to woman, man to woman.
Aren't we supposed to be living in a civilised world, where there is supposed to be more equality?? :S


Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realise that we
cannot eat money.

Cree Indian, 1909

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
  Posted:DJ Dan....two things...



Mand replied to specific points you brought up in your post, and you strayed from the "money" focus when you started talking about population growth.



Second...next time you reply to such a thread...I advise you to avoid saying things like ...



"you homosexuals need to understand"



It sets the tone for the rest of the note, and not a good one at that.



In the end, it is about EQUITY under the law. As things stand right now, things are Not equal...whether it be the tax breaks, or one of the other 1000+ rights and benefits that come with being married.



If you truly are defending tax breaks for the purposes of population growth, then you would be just as harsh to heterosexual couples who can't or won't have kids. They, afterall, get the same tax breaks you do when they get married.



This is the last I'll say on the subject in this thread because such small minded views make my blood boil. I am quite sure, Dan, you'll feel the need to get in the last word, though I would love it if you proved me wrong.

EDITED_BY: SpitFire (1100872752)


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
  Posted:So, DJ Dan, since I want to have kids, should I still not be allowed to marry?

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
  Posted:The more I listened to this gay marriage debate, the more I heard the phrase "sanctity of marriage," or "It's a sacred institution. Gay marriages will water down the meaning of marriage."
Here are some cold, hard facts. 50% of marriages end in divorce. 70% of husbands have been unfaithful. 35% of wives have been unfaithful. Most of these divorces involve children. Seems to me, traditional heterosexual marriages don't respect the institution. They're the ones ruining our wholesome American values. They certainly aren't 'promoting stability,' as someone mentioned.
I'm wondering, how are homosexual marriages going to water down the sanctity of marriage? How do you water down water? Add more water?

As far as spouses' rights go, I can understand that a married couple which is raising a child deserves a tax incentive. But what about married couples who have not yet had children. What if the husband is sterile? What if they simply choose not to have children? What if their only child is killed by a contaminated flu shot at age 6? Do these tax incentives expire when the child does? What happens when the child turns 18? I'm not sure about single parents, but surely they must get twice as many tax breaks as a married couple does, because they're raising a child by themselves.

Just looking for some fairness in these arguments... confused


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
  Posted:Parents get tax breaks for having dependents...so whenever that child starts earing enough to pay their own taxes, they are no longer considered a dependent and the parents can no longer get a tax break for them. Sometimes that is at 18, sometimes older (as in my case), and sometimes younger.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
  Posted:Written by: Prometheus

Here are some cold, hard facts.



Now, my dear, sweet Prometheus...

Since when was the anti-gay marriage camp even remotely interested in such a silly thing as cold-hard facts?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
  Posted:true... [slaps self]

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
  Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

the genetic dead end that is a homosexual couple. ubbangel



Yay!

I'm a genetic dead end!

Wooooooooo!

Why are people discussing this on hop, and not where it rightfully belongs? In a pub, preferably with a lot of your friends (who hold similar views) debating the issue loudly next to a group of christians?

wink biggrin


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
  Posted:mcp... I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but please be careful not to pigeonhole Christians, it can be as offensive as 'you homosexuals' to those of us who are of the Christian faith but also support total equality and would really like to see Mand and Spitfire find a loophole in all the political and legal rubbish so they can be together. Just a thought hug

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
  Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Follow the money trail... it's all about money. The purpose of marriage is to have babies, thus humanity can continue to exist.



i thought marriage was all about two people expressing their love for each other and making a commitment to sharing their lives with each other and no one else. humanity seemed to do alright existing pre church/institution of marriage believe it or not marriage is not a requirement of baby making

Written by: DJ Dantana

For those of you who say "what about the divorce rate?" well... divorce is a shamefull thing when done for selfish reasons



um welcome out of the dark ages theres nothing shameful about doing what makes you happy and definately nothing shameful about changes something that makes you unhappy. if your marriage is making you unhappy to stay in it makes you stupid. yes kids they are an issue but are parents going to be more loving towards their children if they are unhappy or if they are happy?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
  Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

For those of you who say "what about the divorce rate?" well... divorce is a shamefull thing when done for selfish reasons. Here's a few statistics. 90% of divorces, where children are involved, are initiated by the female. The number one reason given is that the woman "felt like the husband and wife were growing apart" or she "felt unloved". Nothing concrete... like infidelity or abuse....



hey dantana.. i think "not being loved" is a perfectly valid reason to get divorced.. marriage, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is committed in order to express two ppls love for one another and to share everything with each other.. if one out of the couple does not love the other or is unhappy because he/she feels unloved, then why not get a divorce.. theres nothing shameful about it.. of course abuse, physical or verbal, is a valid reason too, but not the only reason.. yes, perhaps someone will get hurt and it is selfish, but would you rather share your life with someone who does not love you or whom you do not love and be unhappy, or end that marriage and unhappiness and start over.. for example, my grandparents got divorced after 30odd years of marriage.. the reason? the love they once felt for each other was gone.. selfish? perhaps. valid? definitely


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
  Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

The purpose of marriage is to have babies, thus humanity can continue to exist.



If the purpose of marriage is to procreate, why do they talk about all that other stuff? Where in the marriage vows does it mention babies? I remember 'love, honor, cherish, rich or poor, sick or healthy, til death parts you...all that bunk...nuthin' about baby production. confused

Actually, don't they say "I now pronounce you man & wife" at the end? Just for the heck of it, I looked it up in Websters, 'wife' is defined as "a man's spouse...."

Kinda makes you go hmmm.... ubbrollsmile


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
  Posted:The purpose of marriage is to be married. The purpose of unprotected sex is to have babies....

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
  Posted:I found a good article from a year ago which answered all of my subsequent questions.

http://www.aclu.org/LesbianGayRights/Les...ord?record=1320


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Lillie Frog


Lillie Frog

not a stranger
Location: wales

Total posts: 558
  Posted:I can't be bothered to do the quote thing, but there has been stuff said about marriage being about having babies and all that.

I would like to mention that I am married, that before I got married I informed my husband to be that I did not want to have any babies.
So we did not have any.
Nor will we have any as a small operation has been done to make sure!

Does this mean in Dj Dans opinion we should not have got married?
That our marriage is not a real one?

To be honest I have never heard of such nonsense.

People who love each other should be able to make a commitment to each other if they wish to do so.
Their intention/nonintention to have kids is nothing to do with it.
Their sexuality should have nothing to do with it (though unfortunatley the law often says it does).

By the same token people who have babies, wether by adoption or whatever, should not be legislated about. So long as they are good parents who care for and love the kid, everything else is their business and theirs alone.

To be honest I was a bit shocked to read what DJ Dan said, I hate to critisise people,especially people I don't really know, but I was startled to read that kind of rubbish. I know he has a right to his opinion, just as I have mine, but still, I didn't expect to hear that kind of narrow minded opinion here.

I'm all for marriage being a commitment, and people working at it and taking it seriously and not giving up at the first hurdle, but theres already too many people telling us all how we should live and what we can and cannot do in the privacy of our own homes and lives.

Two people loving each other and wanting to make that commitment has got to be good.


Eat when you're hungry
Sleep where it's dry
No one is ever what they seem
Gabriel King - The Wild Road

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
  Posted:I think one major reason the bans occurred is that people are unwilling to notice (or just ignorant of) the difference between a "legal" marriage and a "religious" one. There's a lot of ignorant fear that if same-sex unions are legalized, every churchgoing person is suddenly going to have to sit through a wedding right in their church that they object to because of (IMO outdated) religious beliefs.

I'm absolutely all in favor of civil unions for many of the personal, financial, and ethical reasons discussed above. I also think the government should allow that to take place.

The "marriage" as performed by a religious institution... well, the gov't should keep its nose out of the church. It has no business in there. That being said, I don't know of many churches that would approve of a religious ceremony for the marriage of two same-sex partners even if it were legally permitted.

I have known couples who got married just by going down to the courthouse, getting the license, and a county official pronounces them married. Does the religious right think less of a couple like this, because they didn't "make their promise" in a church?

It's all about fear, if you ask me. Narrow-minded, ignorant fear that stems from a life at the feeder bar of fundamentalism, never being encouraged to think independently or question one's faith. I can personally attest that I used to be somewhat like that until a good friend of mine came out and, well... completely remained as my friend, because he was still the same person I had known before, just no longer competing with me for girls smile

Oh, has anything said about that lesbian couple in Canada who underwent the first gay divorce?


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
  Posted:Dio, I think you hit the nail on the head. It is fear.

We don't want churches to marry us, necessarily, and those gay and lesbians who do will go to a church that is accepting of such unions.

For us, we want the Civic marriages...so that the government recognizes us as family units, so that we get the same rights as married straight couples.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Lillie Frog


Lillie Frog

not a stranger
Location: wales

Total posts: 558
  Posted:And that is exactly what you should have.

It's outrageous that you don't.

At least some US states support gay/lesbian marriage.
I don't think anywhere in the UK does.


Eat when you're hungry
Sleep where it's dry
No one is ever what they seem
Gabriel King - The Wild Road

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
  Posted:Though you all do have better immigration laws. You still have to prove you've lived together for a year, which is problematic if the foreign partner doesn't have a work visa....

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...

Total posts: 1107
  Posted:Some Pacific islands recognise each sexual orientation as a different sex and as such will marry any combination of them, accepting that the love people have for each other is far more important than what they choose to do with their genitals

Funnily enough the fabric of their society has yet to come crashing to the ground.

And yet *they* are called a primitive society.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
  Posted:Try coming to ireland....



Good Catholic country that we are.



This thread has been winding me up no end.



Seriously can anybody come up with one good reason why two gay people in love should not be able to marry each other and share the same benefits as a hetro couple. There are none.



This is based in religous conditioning pure and simple... I'm confident that the christian faiths will losen their grip one of these days though. We only got the right to divorce here in ireland in the last couple of years. The church is losing its strangle hold on the law givers and educators more and more every year.



DJ, I find it very hard to believe that you object to gay marriage on the basis of fiscal responsibility and pro-creation. In all honesty. I think you just dont like gay people.



Personally, I like people... in general. I see no reason why anyone should not have they same rights that you or I have. None.



Mand and Spitfire. My heart goes out to you both.



Spitfire... come to ireland... I'll marry you and make you a honest irish women. You can run away with the woman of your dreams and we'll have an amicable divorce in short order. smile


Love is the law.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
  Posted:smile

Getting to the other side smile

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
  Posted:

Do you think that marriage is all about money Dan? cuz thats the argument you are actually making.



Josh

EDITED_BY: Josh (1101209396)


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
  Posted:ubblol ado-p, thanks so much for the offer!

Mand and I might have to keep it in mind, though we have our heart set on Canada!
biggrin


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
  Posted:I had this conversation with a somewhat conservative quilter on another board. I think the following written by her does a good job of expressing the views of someone opposed to gay marriage and why they are opposed.

Written by:
As to the social aspects, the cry for equal rights for gays reminds me of the cry for equal rights for unmarried heterosexual couples as part of the women's liberation movement. I remember when people didn't want to rent apartments to these 1960's hippie kids or college kids just starting out in life like everyone else except that they weren't married. Look what nice people they are, the argument went. Just like us except that they are having sex without getting married. That's nobody's business but their own, so stop being so biased and accept their lifestyle . . .

Now fast forward some 40 years and 40 million elective abortions later. Women are having trouble finding a man who really respects them and is willing to get married and really work on keeping the marriage together for life. Why should he, when he can get another partner? Why should he marry at all when he can readily find a sexual partner without marriage? And if she gets pregnant, its her problem and he probably won't even pay for the abortion or give her a ride to the clinic unless he is making sure that she gets it done so he won't have to pay 18 years of child support. If she keeps the kid, she may have to take him to court and prove paternity to get child support but that won't make him be a husband to her and a father to the child. Women didn't get liberated by moving in without marriage -- the men did! The women are now dealing with even more problems than their "sexually repressed" sisters before the 1960's did.

Of course, those "sexually repressed" sisters were heeding the wise advice of their mothers who knew that marriage was an important source of legal protection for a woman and her children. Centuries of experience had shown that society in general and women and children in particular benefited when men were legally tied to their mates in a long term marriage contract. The system wasn't perfect because people weren't perfect, but social pressure to stay within the system did help -- until the 1960's when we were all supposed to be liberated from such a repressive system. An integral part of that repressive system that made it work was that wise women wouldn't agree to sex outside of marriage.

So what about the gays and their demands for equal rights? Look what nice people they are, the argument goes. Just like us except that they are having homosexual sex and some even want to get married. That's nobody's business but their own, so stop being so biased and accept their lifestyle. It is the same argument that led to women's sexual liberation as described above, but with a little twist. The gays and lesbians are now demanding the right to get married and have the same benefits as heterosexual couples. However, they don't produce children so there is no point in giving them the benefits of the legal union meant to promote and support child bearing and raising. Society has an interest in having its citizens raise up new generations of well educated healthy young adults to replace the older workers going into retirement or dying. That is why there were so many benefits offered to married workers an d their families that weren't extended to single workers who theoretically weren't supposed to produce children.

So why not just accept gays and lesbians just like we did the unmarried sexually active adults? It is because promiscuous sexuality, either heterosexuality or homosexuality, breaks down the social structures that stabilize the systems that connect the generations and keep people working together to build up their society. I went through what happened to women when they undermined the marriage laws in the name of equal rights and sexual liberation. History shows that when sexual restrictions binding men to women and children break down, the society eventually breaks down. Societies usually try to suppress homosexuality and lesbianism to support the family structure unpinning them. It isn't because of an unfounded pathological hatred of these individuals, but because of the instinct of self-preservation and the knowledge that whatever threatens the male-female marriage-based family also threatens the stability and well-being of the society.




Please don't think these views are mine. I believe homosexuals should have every right that straight married couples do. I just posted this because I think it is good to see the other side of the coin from someone different than DJ Dan since several people seem to be picking on him at the moment just for his different beliefs.


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
  Posted:good thing I'm not on that board...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
  Posted:Spritie's post does seem to illustrate a realistic scenario, and it does ring with a little bit of logic that isn't based in emotion and ideology, but in cold hard facts.

That being said, I think it's also a blatantly worst-case scenario that deserves a counterpoint. Just look back at the old laws and practices prohibiting interracial relationships half a century ago - has relaxing those stigmas done any harm to society? And yet the opponents of those relationships fought every bit as vehemently as the anti-gay-marriage groups do today.

To deviate from topic a little bit, what I believe we're seeing right now in the US is a conservative backlash against years of swing in the liberal direction. Examples like frivolous lawsuits where people blame everyone but themself for something that happened to them, idiotic Hollywood types who get into political activism without a clue what they're standing up for just to get attention, radical feminism, animal rights activism, etc... social permissiveness and fingerpointing has gotten out of hand in many cases and we're seeing a "settle back down and take some responsibility" effect. It's cyclical, swaying back and forth as society tries to find a balance.

Just look at the sexual revolution in the latter half of the 20th century for a perfect example. Repressed Homemaker June Cleaver got "liberated" but what we ended up getting is Outrageous Party Girl Paris Hilton. One extreme swinging to the other... and now it's turning back again to a more stable center as people realize how out of hand it's gotten. Note - this isn't male oppression either. Look at ladies' fashion and you'll see (as they put it in Cosmo) "the slut look is out." Conservative, elegant fashion is becoming popular once again because the trend of clothing that has to be pixelated on television and thongs on 13-year olds has run its course and proven itself too far out for stable society to accept.

And like any pendulum (except for the scientific ones powered by Geo-rotary force, but we'll omit those) the swing gradually becomes lower in magnitude until it settles down and stops at the point of stability in the middle where it is neither too extreme to the left or right.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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