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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I keep forgetting to ask this and now I don't have time to ask coherenlty as I need to run.

Can someone explain to me what the laws are for gay marriage between states and in federal terms?

Can a married gay couple in Massachusets (where gay marriage is legal) claim 'marriage' on their federal income tax? Can they on their Massachusets state income tax? If they move to Texas, can they claim it on their Texas state income tax?

What ARE the actual laws at this moment?

Health insurance in gay 'friendly' states? What if the insurance company is national? What about employment?

Grr... bell just rang... gotta run.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:its even simpler than that i reckon meg:



supporting unequal rights for a particular group of people is unequivocally a form of discrimination.



so, according to this definition of homophobia, the answer to your question is a firm 'yes'.



however, dogmatic religions are discriminatory by their very nature so, with regard to the catholic stance on same-sex marriage, as the church is of the opinion that homosexuality is a sin, any discussion on the marriage issue is foreordained.





i am not certain i have a full grasp of the leagl implications here - could someone clarify for me please:

if same-sex marriage is permitted, does it carry with it the implication that the catholic church would be obliged to sanctify such unions?



that sounds wrong to me...



interesting discussion on the issue from a baptist minister





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Cole and Meg agreeing with me? I must be wrong.

wink

And Cole, I don't know what you mean by 'sanctify'. Does a Catholic church need to sanctify a Jewish wedding?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:good link cole, thanks.

It's good to hear from intelligent christians.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: NYC



Cole and Meg agreeing with me? I must be wrong.



wink



And Cole, I don't know what you mean by 'sanctify'. Does a Catholic church need to sanctify a Jewish wedding?





we didn't agree with you - we simply answered your loaded question wink





santify "to give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow"

(source:www.thefreedictionary.com)



the reason i referred to the catholic church specifically is because your question was directed at drudwyn, who was defending a catholic's standpoint on the issue.



however, your question suggests a more general version of my question:



does the word 'marriage' in america imply that the union is recognised (sanctified) by a major religion?



if so, which religions are leaglly approved as being allowed to sanctify a marriage and would they be forced to santify same-sex marriages if those unions were made legal?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Drudwyn


Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni

Total posts: 632
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: Drudwyn


I'm gonna have to stick up for Faithinfire here, It's her beliefs, and I know she's not homophobic, she's told us herself her feelings on homosexuality and about her before, so I'm not too fussed.




If one doesn't believe that gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals, is that homophobia?

Serious question here. Not being sarcastic.



From a previous post, Faith has said that she is not against the concept of civil partnerships thus giving gay couples the same rights as straight couples. However, in the same post, she brought up the idea of marriage as different from a legally binding relationship, so she is against the idea of gay marriage. More over, I think the point she was making was that laws should not restrict what she can or cannot believe.


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: coleman


 Written by: faithinfire


i want one that says "keep your laws off my religion"



surely its a bit late for that - divorce is already legal in the u.s.

and as i understand it, catholic dogma states that a marriage under god is indissoluble?

source

cole. x


that is a secular thing, just like civil unions, which i am not against

the catholic equilvalent which sadly is becoming more common is annulment

and it is hard to be homophobic when you are bi yourself eek
like i said before i am not revamping the old discussion, it's all there just go back and look


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by:

More over, I think the point she was making was that laws should not restrict what she can or cannot believe.



Who's restricting what she can believe? She can believe whatever she wants.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1163693583)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: faithinfire



 Written by: coleman



as i understand it, catholic dogma states that a marriage under god is indissoluble?





that is a secular thing, just like civil unions, which i am not against



the catholic equilvalent which sadly is becoming more common is annulment



and it is hard to be homophobic when you are bi yourself eek



like i said before i am not revamping the old discussion, it's all there just go back and look





annulment to my mind is simply a modern way of side-stepping the catholic dogma.



some discussion on the topic



annulment essentially means that the 'marriage' was actually never a real marriage at all in god's eyes, which to me a very questionable reconsideration - it had all the related ceremony and, for its duration, was treated as a wholly sanctified marriage would be shrug



by referring to divorce as 'a secular thing' you seem to be implying that 'marriage' is a specifically catholic union and that all other marriages are simply 'civil unions'?



what about jewish or muslim weddings or even other christian sect weddings - do these not result in marriage?





i have read the other discussion and it doesn't tackle my question of why marriage is considered by some (including yourself if i've understood you correctly faith) to imply that the union is sanctified by a religion and in some cases, implies a union that is sanctified by the catholic church.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Posted:sorry just found this thread and think that the taxidriver from africa link should re read his bible cos it is clearly stated after the flood of noah God said that never again shall the whole world be covered in water.



on a second point



 Written by: coleman



its even simpler than that i reckon meg:



supporting unequal rights for a particular group of people is unequivocally a form of discrimination.



so, according to this definition of homophobia, the answer to your question is a firm 'yes'.



however, dogmatic religions are discriminatory by their very nature so, with regard to the catholic stance on same-sex marriage, as the church is of the opinion that homosexuality is a sin, any discussion on the marriage issue is foreordained.





i am not certain i have a full grasp of the leagl implications here - could someone clarify for me please:

if same-sex marriage is permitted, does it carry with it the implication that the catholic church would be obliged to sanctify such unions?



that sounds wrong to me...



interesting discussion on the issue from a baptist minister





cole. x





no christian churchs would not have to sanctify same sex marriages, because the state is not the head of the church, apart from mabe the state church (like we got church of england) dont know if u've got one of them tho? im a devout romancatholic btw so im totally against same sex marriage

but thats personal beliefs which i try not to thrust at others! biggrin

EDITED_BY: flying_on_fire (1163694689)


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Drudwyn


Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni

Total posts: 632
Posted:As a gay man entering into a civil partnership soon, and as a baptised and confirmed RC boy, I'm pretty much smack bang in the middle of the gay union/ religion debate. The realisation I was gay put an end to my religious life, for the reason that according to the Christian church, God made me. But if that is so, God made me gay (it was not a choice or a temptation it is simply something I am). But God says that being gay is a sin, so God created me as sinful. The idea of being created sinful is the idea of Original Sin, but the Christian church says that Original Sin was ended with the Crucifiction, so I can not have been created sinful...

It was a confusing time in my life. Regardless, I'm in love, I'm happy and if God exists, then that is what he'd want...

I think that's mostly on topic >,<


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:thank-you.



as i suspected, making same-sex marriage legal would have no bearing on what marriages the catholic church deems worthy of sanctification.



i do not think that a union between two people should require a religious element to be referred to as 'marriage'.



the bond of marriage is just as sacred to me whether it is recognised by a god or not - for me, its about the union of two people, not about whether the union was made in the presence of a deity.



 Written by: flying_on_fire



but thats personal beliefs which i try not to thrust at others!





amen to that.



its fine by me if people believe that homosexuality is a sin and therefore choose not to partake in homosexual acts on moral grounds.



as long as they do not try to force others to abide by these rules, i can respect their views.



of course, i'm sure that gay catholics have a problem with it, but that's for them to reconcile for themselves - i imagine that belonging to a faith that precludes your sexual orientation is a very confusing situation to find yourself in.





cole. x



[edit: drudwyn - i wrote this before i had read your post! thanks for sharing your experiences hug ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)



 Written by:

More over, I think the point she was making was that laws should not restrict what she can or cannot believe.



Who's restricting what she can believe? She can believe whatever she wants.







that was the point of the bumper sticker i wanted, no one is restricting what i believe, no one is saying that

don't jump in the middle of conversations trying to start an arguement



and annulment is a catholic institution

marriage i would consider a religious thing, civil unions secular, if another religion ok's marriage in their religion that is up to them

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1163696074)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:confused



the bumper sticker "keep your laws off my body" is saying "don't legislate against abortion as this is dictating what i can and cannot do with my body".



a bumper sticker that says "keep your laws off my religion" says to me "don't legislate for same-sex marriages as this reduces the sacredness of my religion".



laws that allow same-sex marriage have *nothing* to do with religion.

the catholic church would still be free to choose which unions it chooses to sanctify so the same-sex marriage laws are totally apart from 'your religion'.



apologies if i've misunderstood you faith but i'm guessing from his post that jeff read the meanings of those bumper stickers in a similar way to me.





on marriage:



that clears things up for me - we have opposing opinions on what marriage means and so our views are irreconciable.



i don't think the union of marriage has to be linked to religion whereas you do.



you are against same-sex marriage because, for you, marriage is linked to religion and your religion abhores same-sex relationships.



i consider marriage to be a union that can exist apart from religion and thus, a same-sex marriage is as acceptable as an opposite-sex marriage.



hug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'm sure anybody seeing a bumper sticker saying "keep your laws off my religion" is going to find themselves wondering what it means.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:abhor is a strong statement

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Posted: Written by: Drudwyn


... The realisation I was gay put an end to my religious life, for the reason that according to the Christian church, God made me. But if that is so, God made me gay (it was not a choice or a temptation it is simply something I am). But God says that being gay is a sin, so God created me as sinful. The idea of being created sinful is the idea of Original Sin, but the Christian church says that Original Sin was ended with the Crucifiction, so I can not have been created sinful...

It was a confusing time in my life. Regardless, I'm in love, I'm happy and if God exists, then that is what he'd want...

I think that's mostly on topic >,<



nowhere does it say that orriginal sin was ended, it has been removed totally different!! and confusing because of translation! biggrin basically if we ask forgivness our sins will be washed away by jesus' blood spilt on the cross, not that we dont have it anymore
ubbloco yea im sad and read into this stuff eek


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:very nice explanation

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


abhor is a strong statement



And consistant with what I've seen said about gays by some religious folks.

Like this guy:

Non-Https Image Link


[*Obviously this image is being posted here in the context of showing how hateful some anti-gay activists can be. I hope readers will read it as such.]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by:

More over, I think the point she was making was that laws should not restrict what she can or cannot believe.


Who's restricting what she can believe? She can believe whatever she wants.




that was the point of the bumper sticker i wanted, no one is restricting what i believe, no one is saying that
don't jump in the middle of conversations trying to start an arguement

and annulment is a catholic institution
marriage i would consider a religious thing, civil unions secular, if another religion ok's marriage in their religion that is up to them



Does that mean you believe two people, say, athiests, cant get married?


Love is the law.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: faithinfire



abhor is a strong statement





i don't think abhor is too strong a word for the catholic church's and baptist church's stance on same-sex relationships and same-sex marriage.



why do i think that?



for a start, that image nyc posted was displayed by baptist church members at a funeral (source: the story behind the picture).

and there's a horrible website that goes with it: do not click this - its very unpleasant hate mongering





that's definitely the extreme/fanatical end of the spectrum as far as attitudes go, but its very clear that the catholic church isn't prepared to 'love thy neighbour' if thy neighbour happens to be actively gay frown



for those too lazy to search:

catholic bishop's to vote on whether or not to condemn scorn and hatred whilst still opposing same-sex unions - why in the world should they need to vote on whether or not to denounce hatred, in any form?!??!!

what to do if you're catholic, gay and american



we have same sex unions in the u.k.

however, i see no reason that we shouldn't refer to them as marriages (as they are in spain).

the law should not discriminate between men and women and the relationships they build.

i also think it should be up to individual churches to choose whether or not they will host same-sex marriage ceremonies or sanctify such marriages.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Drudwyn


Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni

Total posts: 632
Posted:Like I said, I was baptised, confirmed etc. and I believed whole heartedly, but nothing changed. I'm still gay, like I always have. Refusing to admit it made me unhappy and trying to bring the 2 parts of me, religion and my sexuality brought pain and suffering to me, not peace and joy. Peace and joy has only come to me throguh accepting who I am, and finding someone who I love, want a family with and want to grow old with.

If God's aim is for us to experience peace and joy and love, then my path lies not with the church but with the man I'm marrying and the family that we'll have together.

Surely it is love and not hate that Jesus preaches? I'm not talking about the horrificaly jealous and wrathful God of the Old testament or the notoriously hateful apostles like Paul, I'm talking about the Gospels. Love thy neighbour, let him without sin cast the first stone etc. It is small minded bigots that bring hate and pain and suffering, not gay men and women.

So yes, gay marriage should be a right, as should freedom from predjudice, equal rights for all regardless of gender, sexuality, race, creed, religion or philosophy. You have the right to believe what ever you want to believe, but it should not be religions place to judge me for what I am and have always been.


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I don't think it makes any difference that religions judge, but the important thing is that their opinions on the matter should have no political weight.

Idealy they should be left to their opinions, screaming "sinner" alone and unheard to their hearts content.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Posted: Written by: coleman



and there's a horrible website that goes with it: do not click this - its very unpleasant hate mongering


that's definitely the extreme/fanatical end of the spectrum as far as attitudes go, but its very clear that the catholic church isn't prepared to 'love thy neighbour' if thy neighbour happens to be actively gay frown
cole. x



soapbox
this is a well edited website eek they have managed to take parts of scripture and twist them out of their context entirely!!!!!!
this is not the veiw of christianity this is the christian version of racial and sexual extremists!

:'( these ppl are sickened with the devil, but cannot see that those they are denoncing are better off than they themselves are :'(



(does this place not have a crying graemlin)


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Can you prove which interpratation of scripture is correct? For hundreds of years the tenth commandment was taken by many Christians as an endoresment for slavery, other Christians disagreed. Some people say scripture declares a flat earth/young earth/geocentric universe. Some say it forbids mixed race weddings. Some say it forbids contraceptions, others say that's twisting it out of context. Shellfish, crop-rotation, the list goes on.



The point I'm getting at is: Perhaps a better approach is to just try and be nice to people and work out our own answers.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Posted:sorry i just read parts then looked them up, the last point in the website for example continues into romans2,1 You, therefore, have no excuse you who pass judgement on someone else, for at whatever you are condeming yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things.

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Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


Can you prove which interpratation of scripture is correct? For hundreds of years the tenth commandment was taken by many Christians as an endoresment for slavery, other Christians disagreed. Some people say scripture declares a flat earth/young earth/geocentric universe. Some say it forbids mixed race weddings. Some say it forbids contraceptions, others say that's twisting it out of context. Shellfish, crop-rotation, the list goes on.

The point I'm getting at is: Perhaps a better approach is to just try and be nice to people and work out our own answers.




fair points i should have put my example in my first post. didnt mean to bring those points in mabe misworded what i was saying, it cut cirtain parts to make its point seem like that was difinative!


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:The problem with religion and with any particular religion is this: How can you prove your version is the right one?

If you're a Christian, then I have news for you: that chap with the "GOD HATES FAGS" sign (I take it God doesn't smoke, then? smile ) would also say that he's a Christian. And what's more, he would argue that you aren't!.

And he can show you biblical proof that he's right!

Oh lord... what a mess we have.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:i don't think you can judge
but marriage in Christianity is generally understood to be man and woman
and no i don't think aethist can be married but can be "unionized"
marriage IMO is religious, how it is defined w/in religion is up to their dogma


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:That's why I'd like to see "marriage" done away with entirely and have the government take care of civil unions and houses of worship do the marriages.

OR screw the semantics and marriage for all.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:i vote for the first option

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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