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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:so sorry

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:Thank you Arashi, you seem to be one of the voices of reason and logic here. Here is an intersting nugget of truth.



Understand that the terrorists attacked us on 9/11 not because of our goodness and freedom, but because we poke around in their business, occupy their lands and kill their people.

* Build a "West Bank" style fence along our southern border. (Cost: Less than $3 billion)

* Bring home the 500,000 American troops that are languishing in 140 of the worlds 193 countries, and let them guard the fence.

* Inspect 100% of the shipping containers that enter our ports.

* Bring some sanity back to our immigration and visa issuing policies.

* Find the bad guys who managed to sneak into our country and either kick them out, put them in jail, or kill them.

* Leave the rest of us alone.



In the mean time, Bush's pushing of the UNPATRIOTIC ACT, and the Nazi he just appointed as Attorney General with continue to send this country to hell, and drag the world along with it.



However, if you ask the Iraqi people, the vast majority are happy to be liberated. And Kim of Korea still has nukes pointed at Japan, and is staving his own people.



Doesn't seem to be a good way out of all of this.



frown


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Well, the reason I asked for your sources was because the other ones that you posted were about gun crime, not about people cowering in fear.

Written by: DJ Dantana

*snip* I assume bovril lives in a city *snip*



Well, you know what they say about assumptions and their offspring.
I don't actually live in a city at all. I live in a town about 30 miles out of London. Not an incredably small place, but not that large either.

I can't read the last of your links because it says I'm not a member.
However, I can read the first two - they're 2 years old!

In response, I'd like to post
this pdf.
It's from the home office, published at the end of october this year and basically says this:

The risk of crime is 25% lower compared to June last year. Also, it's the lowest it's been since 1981 (when the survey was started).
There's been 14% increase in recorded crime against a person in the last year. This is attributed to advances in police recording techniques.
The total firearm related offenses between june 2003 and 2004 stands at 10590. That's an increase of 3%
Levels of worry about crime has fallen, along with perceived anti social behavior.
Amount of confidance in the criminal justice system has risen.


Written by: DJ Dantana

*snip* THAT is pacivisim *snip*



No, that's not wanting someone's death on your conscience.
Something like this is pacivism.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Quote Dan"Iraqi people, the vast majority are happy to be liberated."

Yes the 100 000, one hundred thousand dead iraqi civilians killed by our invasion, I'm sure that they are very happy, and their sons and daughters,
and their wives and husbands
and their parents.

Dan, sadly, that is a Lie that your media is feeding you, the American people, and you Dan just like the majority of americans are lapping it up.
You're media is trash, I know, I get weekly reports of the sh!t it spews out from my parents.
If you want another one there was zero connection between Sadam and Terrorists. and Sadam had NO weapons of mass distruction.

The truth is that most Iraqi's are not grateful for being invaded
yes, they may have livein in fear and in a corrupt system before
But Life is no better for Iraqi's since we [censored] the country up, and now, There is very little electricity, health care, sanitation or running water.

and I'm not worried about Americans invading another country, you economy is SOO [censored] you can't afford to, wage another war for a while, and within another 10 years USA, like Russia will be whats known as "a former superpower". Made in China, made in China


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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:Arabic countries have hated the presence of Western armies occupying their lands dating back to the time of the Crusades.

There truly is nothing new under the sun.

Raph


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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:i'm in a bit of a menacing mood today biggrin

dan, here's a little something especially for you ubbrollsmile


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:I'm actually going with Arashi on this one.

We all have extremely strong arguments re: gun control and our perception of each other.

But we have to bear in mind that our perceptions come from our own individual experiences.

DJ Dan's views, while unpalatable to most people who have not grown up in rural America, are as valid as anyone elses. And we are never going to convince him that gun ownership is unnecessary by trying to shout him down.

Just as it is difficult for us to understand where he is coming from, it is probably equally difficult for him to understand why we don't carry guns as a rule.

For most of us, our perceptions are shaped by the news and documentaries we watch and read - the information we choose to use. Media in the UK and Europe (for all it's faults) is vastly different from the media in America.

That's not the fault of anyone on this board, so maybe we could try a little more reasoning and understanding to get the points across.

Hope you're all having a lovely Tuesday. Tis sunny here biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Apart from shouting anyone down, we're not just talking about rural american experiences as the basis for the arguements here.

Almost every country in the western world has been brought into this discussion in one document or another. Its not just about perceptions, its about a logical interpretation of the facts.

The fact is, there are two many facts in this thread. Some bias, some not and nobody really agreeing which is which or why who brought what to the table.

In other words. I too think that all this is going nowhere. Everything has been said that can be said.

There's alot of very useful and informative info posted in this therad.

Well done everyone though. I learned alot while reading this. Including how lucky i am to be able to walk out my front door and not fear for my life. When i say that I am not talking in comparison to the US either. I'm talking about iraq, afghanistan, sudan, rwanda, kuwait, palistine, eastern bloc countries and so on an so on. There are many places in the world where people die tragic voilent deaths every hour of every day on a scale defies even the most rational arguement for gun ownership. In other words. Giving the people guns wouldnt help. It would just mean more people die. This is at least the way i see things.

Dan, I've already posted the crime stats for your location in an earlier post. I say to you that your a lucky guy. Just like me.

For my part I am going to stick to my own guns. Pardon the pun.


Love is the law.

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Thank you Arashi, you seem to be one of the voices of reason Understand that the terrorists attacked us on 9/11 not because of our goodness and freedom, but because we poke around in their business, occupy their lands and kill their people.
* Build a "West Bank" style fence along our southern border. (Cost: Less than $3 billion)
* Bring home the 500,000 American troops that are languishing in 140 of the worlds 193 countries, and let them guard the fence.
* Inspect 100% of the shipping containers that enter our ports.
* Bring some sanity back to our immigration and visa issuing policies.
* Find the bad guys who managed to sneak into our country and either kick them out, put them in jail, or kill them.




Seems a bit drastic to me. I flew the idea past Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, not to mention all those geniuses who shot up their high schools and they all agreed. At least we wouldn't be bothering the rest of the free world...

Be careful not to confine insane mass violence to one group (i.e. foreigners). It's people who take drastic steps that we ought to be concerned about.

Since I always try to offer a solution as well as an opinion, how about if we don't outlaw public ownership of guns, just replace bullets with tranquilizer darts. Might cut down on the loss of life. Seems to me that most gun-related crimes result in unnecessary deaths. People get shot over a $60 till, or a purse. This way, instead of dying, it would just be inconvenient lapse of consciousness. ubbrollsmile


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:Dan, did i hear you right? Did you just call the American media LIBERAL? I see a lot of decent logic behind your facts and opinions, but i also really feel like the things you are basing them on aren't as liberal as you think. They all exist as counterpoints, and are not truly original or revolutionary in scope. They are like flipsides of a coin. I believe all accesible media is. liberal is a word which only means "one side of a coin" the media being the coin. Smoky Mirrors to coin a phrase. Truly liberal is another level, it means free. which the so called right has assimilated and touted as it's label lately, smoke smoke smoke. the issues never really change, read up on your political history! they were arguing about this crap in the 1800's and they still are, while the real issues of life and death and exploitation are brushed under the rug as we kill to spread our "freedom." the native americans were free and they were slaughtered and lied to for it. now free has another meaning. and brother we are not free. i have a feeling you know this but i want to push you further away from believing anything someone feeds you ever even if it seems what they are saying is valid.

All of the gun arguments sound formulaically survivalist to me. Which isn't to say that they are wrong, i share many of your views (which means they are right). I just want to see a viewpoint that isn't straight out of a survivalist's fireside chat. do you know what i mean? or i want to at least come shoot your AK



made in china made in china made in china

(edited for clarity)

EDITED_BY: arashi (1102475262)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:I sence much anger in you, Glass. Funny how non-violent people are so pasive..., untill they get emmotional. Also unfortunate that SOME PEOPLE can't control their emmotions. Probably a good thing that most of these people don't believe in owning guns.



It is sad that so many people are repeating the same lies (headlines) about Saddam not having any link to terrorists. That was a headline, and if you bothered (obviousely millions of people didn't) to read the body of the text UNDER that headline, they would see Saddam had tons of links to terrorists. I'm so sick of "one liners" with no factual basis. Saddam did not give the order to make the buildings falling down, but he did have direct links to many many terrorist organizations.... including Al-Quiada. He supplied them with tons of support (money and material)



Is it so easy to forget that he was paying tens of thousands of dollars to the family of each suicide bomber? What was the going rate? $20,000? $30,000?



Or did anyone notice in that same article with the "NO LINK" headline, that Saddam was trying to buy plutonium from Africa? I guess y'all missed that one.



Of course he didn't have any more WMD by the time we got there. He had warning well in advance that we were coming. Were you aware of the convoys of Russian trucks headed towards the Syrian boarder from Bagdad in the days before the invation? You did know that Russia was giving aid to Saddam (including radar jamming technology during the invation), didn't you? I wonder how much of that was responcible for missles going off course and killing innocent poeple.



You can put a WMD lab in a suitcase. A factory in a truck. Or an entire industry in a convoy. Duh. Or perhaps the media forgot to mention that?



If anyone thinks the Iraqi people were happier under Saddam, they need to stop listening to the rumors (my mommy said so) and read some real literature, written by some real Iraqis.. I HAVE. Oh yea, and don't forget, about 20% of the Iraqis never wanted Saddam gone (those were the ones who were benefiting from his rein). I'm sure someone can find some scathing articles written by them...







Hey Rapheal, were you aware that the muslims invaded Europe around 700 AD? "Charles the Hammer" stopped them in France. And it took 500 years to drive them back out of Spain. They invaded Europe before the crusades.



Arashi, I don't recall using the word "liberal".... that's the second time in this thread words have been put in my mouth eek .. the first time was by Dom... rolleyes no implied association there...



Yea, "liberal news media" is a misnomer anyways. Marxist or Socialist would be a better lable. Wouldn't it be nice if Liberal ment "free" and Communist ment "someone who lives in a commune"? ROFL



Arashi is correct, of course. There needs to be balance.



But, I see lot of unbalance on HOP (and on the mainstream news) these days. It seems the non-liberals are afraid to speak up, for fear of being "shouted down".



Arashi, my AKs (yes, that is plural) are not made in China!!!



USA, Bulgaria, and Romania. biggrin



And you are invited to come safely engage in some target practice on Evil Cardboard Boxes and Aluminum Cans anytime. I'm sure Dio would join us. We also enjoy shooting skeet. (killing vile disks of clay flying through the air, with big guns)





Did anyone else notice that our new, (Bush Appointed) AG was the one who changed the rules on interogation in New York to allow certain types of torture...?!?!?



hello?!?!?


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:as per request

UK subjects cower in terror and are afraid to fight back against criminals...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main..../ixopinion.html
br>
meanwhile, in the USA, criminal is prevented from raping and murdering a woman...when she pulls out gun and shoots him.

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/3975311/detail.html


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Saddam did not give the order to make the buildings falling down, but he did have direct links to many many terrorist organizations.... including Al-Quiada. He supplied them with tons of support (money and material)

Is it so easy to forget that he was paying tens of thousands of dollars to the family of each suicide bomber? What was the going rate? $20,000? $30,000?



President Bush has direct links to not just terrorists like Al Quiada, but bin Laden himself. The two families have a long history together. They conducted business, shared meals, heck, did you know the Bush's were among the first to drill for oil over there? Just after 9/11, the bin Ladens were sheltered by the government, flown out during a 'no-fly' state of emergency, for their protection. Sounds treasonous. Maybe we should be invading Washington D.C. instead of Iraq? eek

One could even take it a step further and suggest Bush and his cohorts orchestrated 9/11, but that's another story.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:Dantana (btw are you a real DJ? offtopic but if so, what do you mix.. i mix a bit meself) dont take this as an offense, but i think you need to live in a Western country on the other side of the atlantic for at least a few years, somewhere besides the UK... no, not so that you can be converted, but so that A. you can see that a society without such wreckless gun ownership laws does function without a problem (i guess you missed my example of vienna huh?) and B. so that you can follow the local news there, and just compare the two.. doesnt matter if you believe it or think its "liberal hippie garbash" that is being fed to the masses, but just to compare..
what do you say? youre welcome to live with me in the Netherlands biggrin


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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana


Or did anyone notice in that same article with the "NO LINK" headline, that Saddam was trying to buy plutonium from Africa? I guess y'all missed that one.




then, in turn, I guess you missed this

Written by: LA Times, 3/1/03; Houston Chronicle, 3/7/03; AP 2/21/03

After the Nigerian government reported that a quantity of radioactive material had been stolen from a foreign oil company operating in the Niger Delta, the International Atomic Energy Agency sent a team to ascertain the nature of the problem. As it happened, the company which had lost its radioactive material was Halliburton. The missing materials were radioactive elements (beryllium and americium) used in locating cracks in oil pipelines. None of this material can be used to make a nuclear weapon. None of this material is plutonium. Nigeria has no known nuclear weapons program, and no means of producing weapons grade plutonium. Halliburton has no known nuclear weapons program, and no means of producing weapons grade plutonium. Neither beryllium nor americiums are lethal.



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vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:so I have to wonder what headlines and subsequent stories DJ dan has been ingnoring, or just plain not had access to - like the one where the whole saddam trying to buy plutonium from africa turned out to be a huge inteligence failure and was completely false. Or the one where no independant commision could find ANY link whatsoever between saddam and al queda (and in fact found some suggestion of animosity between them). were these stories completely supressed in the american media? because they are stories that every one in europe and south africa are completely aware of. perhaps that explains why 70% of americans still beleive these stories despite the fact that not one shred of real evidence has been found in the entire world to support them beyond the president of the united states vocalizing these rumors in a state of the union address?

what it comes down to is that I have a very hard time believing that someone could still beleive those things, even in America, given equal access to information. The rest of the world doesn't beleive them at all. The only explinations are that the US domestic media is throughly manipulted by the US government, or the rest of the world media is manipulated by an anti-US faction. I ask you, which is more likely? I say the former, especially since I know someone in american tv broacasting who says they can't air a damned thing political without approval from on high, insinuating that "on high" meant higher than the broadcasting corperation.

you want your right to own guns? fine - but you've already lost your freedom of the press, which is actually much more important. the pen is mightier than the sword, and the tv is mighter than the handgun.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

as per request *snip*




Actually, I would have preferred a link to somewhere official that disputed the home office stats that point out quite explicitly that fear of crime is dropping in the UK.
Instead we get the opinion of a man who's been saying the same thing for 10 years that doesn't have a great deal of detail to back it up.

Written by: DJ Dantana

meanwhile, in the USA, criminal is prevented from raping and murdering a woman...when she pulls out gun and shoots him.



Copy and paste that whole article in here if you have to, but I'd like you to show me exactly where the word 'rape' is.
Or, and this would be the easier option I think, stop blowing things out of proportion to try and make your point.

Actually, the main thing that stands out to me from that page is that the police arrived very quickly indeed - 5 minutes after the shooting isn't a bad time I think.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Tomm
member
Location: Brighton / Southampton
Member Since: 23rd Nov 2004
Total posts: 39
Posted:Blah blah blah...
EDITED_BY: Tomm (1102602216)


Check t'ya bongall rass klan - Eh!
(chilltheworldout)
Lyreecalbombstylee...

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:yeah blahblahblah. i used to be a punk rocker too. but you know what? you aren't part of the solution, so guess what that makes you. sometimes words and action get things done. ever hear of ghandi?



welllll we were talking before about climate and environment. as I've said, to me these seem like the most important issues, along with worldwide import/export and union laws to better regulate international commerce. Nobody has mentioned the WTO and the fact that the govn't is now playing out the same scenario in our country that has bankrupted so many others in the world. GWB is no patriot! he's a businessman!



but sadly they are brushed under the rug for BS issues like gay marriage and research, which are obviously loaded guns. each year before the election the "right" has boiled up some morality based issue, and the left seem to play right into their hands by taking the opposite stance. at this point is there any doubt that the PACs and lobbyists are just setting up a farce and we are buying it? why go up against morality issues?

just as importantly in this intertnational forum, does anyone think their country is immune? cause you can blame americans for buying it but i feel like being suckered is just plain human nature. name one culture besides the aborigine that isn't a bunch of suckers.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:i hear you arashi, the US is one giant business

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:what are you talking about - the whole world is one giant business.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:[image] http://gallery.3jane.net/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Asthetics&id=lnq041213
[/image]



gawd dang it - how come the image link thing isn't working?


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Here you

If you right click on the image and get its location instead of just linking to the page it works getter. Sometimes php and such dont show the ickle details


Non-Https Image Link


Love is the law.

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:ah right... I knew that last month... silly me. rolleyes

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana


What ever happened to equlity? It's legal for the queen's men to shoot a burglar, why can't you? Are you not equally human?





For the very reason we're not policemen. Police don't always make the right decisions when intervening in crime, but they've been extensively trained to, whereas the average citizen hasn't.



And this is something which occured to me earlier in the discussion. Take this for example:



Written by: DJ Dantana


A known criminal with an illegaly owned gun was verbally "threatening to kill my friend, his wife, and to F#@k his little children". You know how much self control that took, for me to NOT pull the trigger and end his life? He walked up into the property. I will admit, my finger started flexing on it's own, my brain had to force my finger to stop flexing at the trigger. THAT is pacivisim. When the Police FINALY arrived again, after 30 minutes, they told me I should have killed him . He was a known violent criminal who had manufcture Methamphetamines, and attempted to kill people with his bare hands many times, for some reason he was out of prison for the last time, on parol.





But you don't mention whether he was actually threatening your friend with a gun, nor how much of his history you had the advantage of knowing, if any. Did you, or did you only find this out when the police arrived on this occasion and the others you've described? (On a slight tangent, are you actively campaigning for faster poice reaction rates so you are less likely to feel compelled to use your gun?)



Was it really pacifism which prevented you from killing him? or the thought that if you did so, and later happened to find that that he had no criminal history, you would have been prosecuted for killing him, your only defence being that he was verbally threatening your friends?



Speaking of the city, my sister has lived in London for over 20 years, 10 of which have been spent living in central London (W1) and while she has experienced crime there, she's never had to brandish a gun or knive, or had one waved at her, nor is cowering in fear yet.



Coincidentally, she never reads the Mail on Sunday or Woman's Own either wink


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:"she never reads the Mail on Sunday or Woman's Own either"

Lol biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:freedom of speech as also now apparently null and void, so even more reason for Americans to keep their guns - it may not be that long before we do have to fight the government.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...arts_monkeys_dc
br>


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."



That time is not yet here, but an ill light does lie over the horizon.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Perhaps the manager closed it for the publicity? Surely any self-respecting art gallery manager wouldn't close an exhibition so hastily?!

There is definitely something lurking in the future.
"that mankind are more disposed to suffer"


Getting to the other side smile

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:The manager was probably approached by a guy in a black suit with sunglasses & an ear bud.

Censorship has porbably never been more prevalent than under this administration.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:No, surely it couldn't be that bad?!

Getting to the other side smile

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:Hi Spanner, in answer to your questions....



"He was actually threatening your friend(s) with a gun?"



Yes, BAD GUY walked up to Kaleb's door, and knocked on it, with gun in hand. (as witnessed by Kaleb's neighbor, Paul, who's life, and wife and children were threatened verbaly before the BAD GUY went to go get a gun) BTW, Kaleb just so happened to not be home at that moment.



When I arrived on the scene, I had already recieved enough info to know that BAD GUY was armed and dangerous, and had been knocking on Kaleb's door with gun in hand.



I also knew that the police had been there and already left. Paul wanted to borrow me for the night, because it is not the police's job to sit there and protect the family all night, just in case the BG did show back up. I had also been informed that this BG was a known violent felon, fresh out of prison and a former methamphetamine manufacturer and currently using meth and alcohol. (the police told my friends this during the police's first visit , and my friends told me)



I also knew he had physicaly assaulted Kaleb earlier.



"Was it really pacifism which prevented you from killing him?"



Yes, and respect for human life. Also, there were a few houses nearby, and I would not go firing a high power rifle in town unless I was forced to (if for instance, the BG actually raised his gun and pointed it at me).



"your only defence being that he was verbally threatening your friends? "



I watched him pick up a pistol out of his truck seat, and walk up to me and my friends with it held behind his back. I was standing in the shadow of my truck about 30 feet behind and to the right of the action, with a clear shot.



Fear for my life or the life of a family member is justification for pulling the trigger, in Oklahoma, and most of the Civilized USA. The criminal history of the BG is not relevant. Although in this case, if I would have killed him, it would have been beyond any question that I was in the right.



Under Oklahoma law, just defending my friend's lives is not a legal reason to kill. However, the BG walked up to "us", therefor my life was in danger also. And Paul's daughter is my god-daughter.



The second time the police arrived, the officer told Paul and I that we were justified in killing the BG when he walked up to us with a gun and started telling us he was going to kill us, kill the wife and F@#4 the little children...



And the BG only retreated AFTER he saw me standing there with a BIG GUN pointed at his head. The little 22 pistol in Kaleb's hand had no effect on the BG's actions. He was to far out of his head on meth to fear a 22 pistol. But my AR-15 had more of an impression.



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The first gun I thought to grab was my AK, but it was laying in a pile, disassembled at the time... redface http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=51&t=60777
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I give credit to Paul though, I always thought he was full of S#14, but after he walked up the the BG, unarmed, and put his life between the BG and his family... I have nothing but respect for Paul's courage (and stupidity... :P ) I asked him about it afterwards, and



Paul said, "I was protecting my family. If BG was going to kill my family, he was going to have to kill me first."



I said, "Paul, you knew I was there, but BG could still have killed you before I could have shot him. The fact that the BG would not live to kill your children too does not change the fact that you would be dead"



Paul knew all this, but had more love for the life of his family than his own life.



Paul stood up to the BG, without a gun, and knowing he would be dead if teh shooting started. Paul was willing to stand toe to toe against a psycho man with a gun, without hesitation. Is that stupidity or courage? Maybe a little of both?


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