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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:so sorry

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: stickman

what i also find interesting is that it is one of the worst recyclers in the world too...



and also one of the biggest culprits of excess packaging


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:So is this the bit where someone asks:

So why arent we all crushed?

smile


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Faberg


Written by: stickman


what i also find interesting is that it is one of the worst recyclers in the world too...





and also one of the biggest culprits of excess packaging





I don't see that europe uses any less packaging... at least not germany


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Wouldn't it be mass of air, not weight?

The China thing - get recent stats to compare with China. In the last few years they've really upped the damage they're going. Per capita energy use is still under half the US - the world would die very soon if everyone lived to the standards of the West. But we weren't talking about China.
Point to any country in the world and I'll find flaws with it.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Unsaturated Carpets Of Freedom

So is this the bit where someone asks:

So why arent we all crushed?

smile



cos we were made to live under all this air - try living without that weight on you and see how far you get.

the human body is mainly fluid and as such is very capable of dealing with pressures far beyond the pressure caused by the air in the atmosphere(as long as they are applied slowly and uniformly).

otherwise, 'deep sea diver' would not be a real job.

and radiohead would never have written an album called 'the bends'...

don't f*ck with physicists jon - we have an answer for everything (even if we did just make it up).


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:hey vanize, good point on the recycling issue by the way.. ive heard things like that too.. in holland most households separate paper from plastic from biodegradable material, but that in the end it all gets dumped in the same furnace anywyas... hmmmm.. recycling??

in vienna they have what is called the spittelau "burning facility" (cant think of the name right now) but the point is that it is amazing.. i had a tour through there with biology class one time... basically they dump all the trash into one big furnace, burn it all, glass too, but its pollution is 0!! i sh*t you not.. there is nothing coming out of the chimney but clean air.. how do they do this?? simple, they have filters in the chimney that filter CO2 and SO2 gasses, including a range of others, but those mainly.. and its self sufficient.. the energy created from burning all that trash is then reused to power the whole system!! amazing!! some of you are probly skeptical about this, but however unbelievable it sounds.. its absolutely true!!


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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:but hey, how about we get back to the bush subject eh?? were digressing just a tad.. i was enjoying it..

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Dom


Wouldn't it be mass of air, not weight?







ah heck - good point. spank for me for mixing weights and masses. but the result is still identicle as long as we stay on earth - the mass of the air in a column over one square inch weighs 15 lbs - and 2000 lbs (weight) is a ton. 1000 kilos is a metric ton of mass, and it weighs aproximately 2000 lbs at the surface of the earth, which is the only place you can really say a metric ton and and 2000lbs are about the same. a metric ton of air (or anything else) would weigh only 1200lbs on Mars, and therefor not be roughly equal to the 2000lbs type of ton.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: stickman

hey vanize, good point on the recycling issue by the way.. ive heard things like that too.. in holland most households separate paper from plastic from biodegradable material, but that in the end it all gets dumped in the same furnace anywyas... hmmmm.. recycling??

in vienna they have what is called the spittelau "burning facility" (cant think of the name right now) but the point is that it is amazing.. i had a tour through there with biology class one time... basically they dump all the trash into one big furnace, burn it all, glass too, but its pollution is 0!! i sh*t you not.. there is nothing coming out of the chimney but clean air.. how do they do this?? simple, they have filters in the chimney that filter CO2 and SO2 gasses, including a range of others, but those mainly.. and its self sufficient.. the energy created from burning all that trash is then reused to power the whole system!! amazing!! some of you are probly skeptical about this, but however unbelievable it sounds.. its absolutely true!!



well, no scrubber system is 100%, and then you still have the problem of what to do with the material caught in the scrubbers - but at least it is then in contained form and you can actually have a hope of doing something with it.

I like the idea of powering my home with my trash though!


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: coleman

don't f*ck with physicists jon - we have an answer for everything (even if we did just make it up).



Rock on Coleman! cool


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Dom

Wouldn't it be mass of air, not weight?



nope, a ton is a measure of force - weight is a force.

if you take a mass and apply an acceleration to it, you get a force.
when the acceleration is due to gravity alone, we generally refer to the force as 'weight'.

if you apply a force over an area, you get a value for the 'pressure'.

with a gas, that pressure is distributed evenly in all directions.

it does get a little more confusing when you start to take the way an atmospheric system actually 'works' into account.

i.e. making a model that considers variations in gravitational field, variations in local air pressure (wind), moisture, and the different layers that make up an atmosphere etc.

back to the bush/us crime discussion people - apologies for the science highjack - blame jon tongue

smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: coleman

Written by: Unsaturated Carpets Of Freedom

So is this the bit where someone asks:

So why arent we all crushed?

smile



cos we were made to live under all this air - try living without that weight on you and see how far you get.




all the way to pluto....? wink


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:I think she is f*ing with you, coleman...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:umm



pass the paddle vanize...



yes, the slide rule will do, just give it here!



spank





wink





[edit: just realised this is in 'social discussion' not 'chat' so i'm getting out of here before flash or dom come and get me wave]

EDITED_BY: coleman (1100879523)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Ooo... slide rules are harsh - I mean, all I have is a metal one.



but anyway - here you go.



<poor Faberge...>

< ...hehehe! - she's had that coming for a few days now.>



{edit that was simultaneous with Colemans]: wow - this has really gotten off topic - you'd think we were in social chat, not social disccusion...


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:ubblol

*puts on serious face and quietly leaves the discussion forum*

*sniggers on way out*


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Written by: Vanise
I think she is f*ing with you, coleman...



Fuing?
Feing?
Fring?

confused


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Written by: coleman

[edit: just realised this is in 'social discussion' not 'chat' so i'm getting out of here before flash or dom come and get me wave]



I was letting it lie - it needed cooling down a bit. But yes, less of the chit-chat please. Only words with 2 or more syllables allowed.


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:How many syllables do the words "syllables" and "allowed" each have?

smile

You...You..

Optometrist?...no..
Hypochondriac?...no..umm..
Filanthropist?..err...no..

Hypocrtie! Thats the one!

(I know my post has more than 2 syllables per word...but I dont care. Im in that rebellious stage today)


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Dom, please quit quoting those fabricated statistics on murders in the UK. The real number is 700 murders per year (not 70). And this includes ONLY the cases where a bad person kills a good person. You are off by an order of magnitude.



http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors237.pdf
br>


In the USA, our homicide statistics include every time a person is killed by another person, even when it is a police man killing a murderer or rapist or violent criminal. It includes every time a good person in the USA kills a criminal. 2,000,000 times a year a law abiding citizen in the USA uses a gun to defend themselves, you can bet a lot of those 15,000 people killed every year are violent criminals. If law abiding citizens in the USA were disarms like brits, you can bet there would be more than 2,000,000 more violent crimes commited every year. 90% of those cases, the good person does not even pull the trigger. Simply showing a gun is enough to make the criminal run for his life.



Dom, here are the real numbers on rape with my SOURCE listed, so quit misleading people!



In 2003 in the UK, 0.4% of women were raped.



http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page60.asp
br>


In the USA in 2000, 0.064% of women were raped.



http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
br>


It is simple psychology. In the UK, criminals know that their victims are disarmed and helpless to defend themselves. You dial 911 (call the police) and pray that the police get there before the criminal finished with you.



In the USA, the criminals live in fear of the good people. I stopped a rape from happening one time, because instead of dailing 911 and waiting for police, I dialed 9mm (that's nine millimeter). I did not even need to pull the trigger. A hugh muscular naked black man got stopped by little old me. Five minutes later the police showed up and arrested him. My neighbor had called the police because of the woman screaming. The rapist had ripped off all her cloths and she was bitten and bleeding and he was choking her when I had got there. The police thanked me for saving the woman's life. If I had been in the UK, you can bet I would have been arrested and the rapist would ahve gotten out of prison sooner than the person who saved the woman from getting raped and murdered.



If I hadn't had a gun, there would have been a rape in Stillwater that year, and a couple of murders... me and that woman dead, and a criminal on the loose.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:YAY! I resisted the urge to say something! YAY! I'm going to play a game and then drive to my dad's house rather than getting sucked into another HoP arguement!

YAY! biggrin

[Sorry, I had to share!]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:this is really an argument about human nature. is the average man capable of wielding such power? since guns exist, should the ownership of them be restricted? i say let poeple kill each other, as long as the ecosystem survives. i'm a tree hugger. at least we aren't in the days of vikings running rampant and raping and murdering, right? wrong. women are raped and people are murdered every day by militaries and criminals alike in the name of the state and business and religion and repressed psychosexuality, just like back in the viking days. (yes, the military does still do this too) we haven't changed at all as far as our violent nature goes. so to me the issue is less paramount than the energy crisis and the teetering ecosystem. esp. when looking at the fact that other less educated nations are going to be _the same as us_ as far as consumerism and ignorance. USA is hated because we are the ones in power, but people are all the same and another nation in power would be commiting the same atrocities.



I could be killed for typing this but IMO it's the ONLY ISSUE OF RELEVANCE IN OUR WORLD TODAY. What is needed more than anything else in the world is an entirely new worldwide system of government whose purpose is to regulate commerce, product production, and energy consumption, and i don't mean the WTO or the EPA. The energy crisis is coming from the fact that we are all separate and competing which is both the strength and flaw of capitalism. capitalism must evolve! i'm talking New World ORder here, aren't I? scary but perhaps more necessary than we care to think. the problem is, making sustainablility the foremost agenda in capitalism and the NWO.



There i said it. I'll be dying of cancer in a few weeks...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Mand
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mand

Keeper of the Spitfire
Location: Calgary Canada

Total posts: 2317
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

90% of those cases, the good person does not even pull the trigger. Simply showing a gun is enough to make the criminal run for his life.



But how many times has that good person had the intent to scare off a criminal by waving their gun around, and ended up dead after having their own gun used against them?


Lets steal a spaceship and head for the sun, and shoot the stars with a lemonade ray gun.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Where do I sign up, arashi???

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Dantant, you could read my post again or I'll make it easy and repeat myself: I used your own source to prove that you are wrong. I'm not misleading people, you are. You quote different measurements of stastics



The web site that you refer to says there were 11,441 cases or rape reported in a year. Using population data from the CIA that gives 0.057%. Less than the US. It says so here and here.

Both your US figure and my UK figures are from reported crime. The BCS you're quoting from uses a completely different method and therefore can not be used for comparison with other figures. Understand?

If you want to use it then I can quote it:

There has been a 25 per cent fall in crime measured by the BCS in the five years between 1997 and 2002/03.
Police recording of those crimes reported to them is now at an historic high of 70 per cent.
The risk of becoming a victim of crime remains at an historic low (around 27%) according to the BCS, one-third lower than the risk in 1995 (40%). which was before gun controls were tightened
Violent crimes experienced by adults living in private households in 2002/03 remained stable, following falls in each survey since 1995. BCS violence has fallen by 24 per cent since 1997. The numbers of recorded violent crimes have been heavily affected by the introduction of the NCRS, but once adjusted for this there was a two per cent increase.



So we're looking pretty safe and happy here. Far from perfect, but far from the criminal haven you seem to think I live in.



Using your same source the number of homicides in the UK is 832 in one year (700 was an older figure). I was talking about deaths by gun. Which for 2000/2001 were 73 and 2001/2002 was 96.

Word Doc

Have a look at this document and point out to me the massive increase in murders that pro gun campaigners claim happen when we tightened gun controls. It doesn't exist - it's made up.



And your lovely idea that the homicides rates don't include all the deaths let's include manslaughter which is accidental death or self defence. Which is 1065 stastics and definitions



I've stopped a violent crime against a woman being dragged into an alley in an industrial estate - by calling the police and making noise. Like the pacifist I am I did it without threatening or using violence. The criminals here don't walk around thinking they've got the power.



Simply: you deluded and you are wrong and even your quoted sources show you to be.


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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:wow! there is some serious tension going on here... i think everyone needs to chill out, read a book or something... im not gonna get dragged into this argument, but i suggest both 'sides' to open ALL the links the other gave and read EVERYTHING, not just the numbers..

arashi, i think ill join you too.. im getting sickened by all this greed for money and power.. its time we started thinking about whats really important and thats our planet.. if we lose that there will be no place to fight for power and money..

*have you hugged a tree today*


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:p.s. dom et al.- i wasn't aware that any thread i ever started had to have a TOPIC...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Arashi, your a smart fellow, with a little to much insite into the way the world realy works. I'm sure the men in black will be over to collect you shortly.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:all this talk of guns though has got me thinking.
it's a struggle for me, when i come down from my vehemence about the environment and start thinking about stuff like this. i'm personally afraid of not having guns in anyone's hands but the government's, cuase really the nazis weren't that long ago. but on the other hand, what could citizens do against an armed militia if it came down to it, so what's the point? we're just protecting ourselves from each other, so if there's no civilian guns ANYWHERE then we only need protect ourselves from knives etc...

Mostly the image of dantana with a 9mm scares me wink


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:exactamundo arashi. If there were no guns, ppl would use knives, if there were no knives ppl would use pointy sticks..etc etc. however a kid is unlikely to accidently kill his mum with a knife or a pointy stick. Accidental death by gun is waaaaay easier (and more common by far).

I simply dont understand how ppl think that if guns are easily accessible there is going to be less crime? surely you would realise that the first thing a criminal is going to do in a society of gun lovers is get a gun? And a crim is more likely to shoot you first and drag you from the car if he thinks its likely you might shoot him.

Its a matter of controlling the level of damage that can be produced by a weapon as ppl inflict their small mindedness on each other.

PS I think the 'liberation'* of Fallujah in Iraq has shown that even an organised armed force cannot compete with the firepower of the US army, so keeping guns to protect freedom from oppression is a bunk argument (unless your gonna let dantana buy Stinger Missiles at Kmart..and even then they could still just Nuke OK)

*by Liberation I actually mean Obliteration. Does anyone else think the US idea of Iraqi democracy even if it kills all the Iraqis is a bit smelly? I sure do.

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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