- All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
Forums > Social Discussion > apologies for bush
Login/Join to Participate
Posted:so sorry
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
Posted:I certainly agree that this is a situation where mostly the extrtemists on BOTH sides speak the loudest. I tend to lean towards more gun control...
I agree that a totally pacifist society would be silly, I hate to keep bringing up movies that only I seem to like, but in Demolition Man, they demonstrated how horribly pathetic a pacifistic society can be. Fear would overtake survival instinct and we'd just die out. Plus humans are naturally aggressive, so I doubt it would stay that way for long. Especially Americans. We are a destructive, war-like people. We average a major war every 20 years in this country. And we're not even that old as countries go...
I also agree that the Second Ammendment defense is not only the ammendment most often taken out of context, but that it is completely obsolete. Has been ever since Maxim introduced his machine gun to the gov't. The 2nd was designed to allow private citizens to bear arms for the reason of going up against our own army. Can you imagine going up against a military force with all the assault weapons you could possibly own? They'd obliterate you from the next county. They'd be eating popcorn, watching you get bigger and bigger in the camera mounted on that smart bomb, and boy would they be impressed with your ability to defend yourself....
But hey, maybe they used up all that stuff in Iraq, so we'll pit their Abrahms tank against, hmm, your Ford pickup?
Or maybe you bought a bright yellow Hummer (which you never take off-road) vs. their Apache gunship...last years model...with minimal armament...hmmm...nope, yer still dead.
I'm not really sure where the answer lies, but it's probably a little closer to peace than violence
I agree that a totally pacifist society would be silly, I hate to keep bringing up movies that only I seem to like, but in Demolition Man, they demonstrated how horribly pathetic a pacifistic society can be. Fear would overtake survival instinct and we'd just die out. Plus humans are naturally aggressive, so I doubt it would stay that way for long. Especially Americans. We are a destructive, war-like people. We average a major war every 20 years in this country. And we're not even that old as countries go...
I also agree that the Second Ammendment defense is not only the ammendment most often taken out of context, but that it is completely obsolete. Has been ever since Maxim introduced his machine gun to the gov't. The 2nd was designed to allow private citizens to bear arms for the reason of going up against our own army. Can you imagine going up against a military force with all the assault weapons you could possibly own? They'd obliterate you from the next county. They'd be eating popcorn, watching you get bigger and bigger in the camera mounted on that smart bomb, and boy would they be impressed with your ability to defend yourself....
But hey, maybe they used up all that stuff in Iraq, so we'll pit their Abrahms tank against, hmm, your Ford pickup?
Or maybe you bought a bright yellow Hummer (which you never take off-road) vs. their Apache gunship...last years model...with minimal armament...hmmm...nope, yer still dead.
I'm not really sure where the answer lies, but it's probably a little closer to peace than violence
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
Posted:Written by: Prometheus
And we're [America] not even that old as countries go...
actually that depends on how you look at it - we are among the youngest in terms of actual settling the land, intermediate in terms of having a national identity, and have one of the oldest unchanged governments in the entire world.
And we're [America] not even that old as countries go...
actually that depends on how you look at it - we are among the youngest in terms of actual settling the land, intermediate in terms of having a national identity, and have one of the oldest unchanged governments in the entire world.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Posted:what, you mean having one of the oldest governments? well, it does suggest stability, which is good (especially in financial terms) - however, it does also imply a certain archaic nature which can be a handycap when things develop, which is evident in things like the right to bear arms and the electoral college system....
but really the US consitution is a very wise document and should not be scrapped. and opening it to revision, especially at the core levels such as the bill of rights (guns) and the very way the system is set up (electoral college) is dangerous, and I am opposed to this - especially in an era with an increadibly selfish electorate in power - it sets a very dangerous precident for changing all sorts of things, so best to live with the defects and not give any openings to the bastards that presently rule or may rule in the future.
but really the US consitution is a very wise document and should not be scrapped. and opening it to revision, especially at the core levels such as the bill of rights (guns) and the very way the system is set up (electoral college) is dangerous, and I am opposed to this - especially in an era with an increadibly selfish electorate in power - it sets a very dangerous precident for changing all sorts of things, so best to live with the defects and not give any openings to the bastards that presently rule or may rule in the future.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Posted:Lol, I fully agree that any change to the constitution via this presidency (and I expect any future presidency) is dangerous 
However, and I realise I am going to be attacked mercilessly over this (
), but I don't actually believe the US constitution is as wise as you say. It has resulted in a greedy, self-serving nation with little restraint through a doctrine that preaches the freedom to 'do as you will'. Human beings (en masse) cannot live without order (we are stupid, selfish creatures), and I believe the British constitution has been much more effective for it's people - a doctrine that preaches what you can't do.
Anyways, there's f*ck all can be done about it now.
However, and I realise I am going to be attacked mercilessly over this (
), but I don't actually believe the US constitution is as wise as you say. It has resulted in a greedy, self-serving nation with little restraint through a doctrine that preaches the freedom to 'do as you will'. Human beings (en masse) cannot live without order (we are stupid, selfish creatures), and I believe the British constitution has been much more effective for it's people - a doctrine that preaches what you can't do.Anyways, there's f*ck all can be done about it now.
Getting to the other side 
Posted:I will get a bit bristly if you attack the US consitution. but it does a have a few flaws in the modern world. however, the present form of US government has little to do with the constitution. In fact, I would say the only thing really left protecting the modern american from their government (and I am being non-partisan with that statement) is that very same constitution. I wish more people in the states would wake up to that. The US could have a very different government given the contitution is has - in fact, it should, as several things in the government are out of whack in regards to the constitution (like the president should have nothing whatsoever to do with the budget, but as it stands now, he write the budget and congress only modifies and approves it - and in general, the presidential branch of government now has more power than it is supposed to and the supreme court is no longer really independant as it is supposed to be).
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Posted:Heheheheh. Pah, Americans.
Bristly, eh?! Lol, don't you think the US constitution was a reaction to the English oppressors, and a reaction that has resulted in the society of excess we see today?
(totally off topic, but I just looked outside and there is a tremendous ice blue clear sky overhead, with one or two small angry dark grey clouds moving across it. Each cloud as glorious silver lining - nice
)
Bristly, eh?! Lol, don't you think the US constitution was a reaction to the English oppressors, and a reaction that has resulted in the society of excess we see today?
(totally off topic, but I just looked outside and there is a tremendous ice blue clear sky overhead, with one or two small angry dark grey clouds moving across it. Each cloud as glorious silver lining - nice
)Getting to the other side
Posted:Written by: Firepoise
and I believe the British constitution has been much more effective for it's people - a doctrine that preaches what you can't do.
But isn't the Britain the only country apart from Israel not to have a "written" constitution? There is no single document which sets out the way it's political institutions function, or one which sets out the basic rights and duties of it's citizens. I know it has Common Law, Statute Law and Convention, but it's Common Law is often interpreted in courts by judges, which I don't think is always a good thing.....
But I probably don't know enough about it to start debating it here and (remembers the subject of this thread) I'm
again, sorry 
But then again, we here in Ireland have a written constitution yet our government still manages to piss all over it by continuing to permit American warplanes and armed military to land for refueling at Shannon Airport enroute to Iraq
and I believe the British constitution has been much more effective for it's people - a doctrine that preaches what you can't do.
But isn't the Britain the only country apart from Israel not to have a "written" constitution? There is no single document which sets out the way it's political institutions function, or one which sets out the basic rights and duties of it's citizens. I know it has Common Law, Statute Law and Convention, but it's Common Law is often interpreted in courts by judges, which I don't think is always a good thing.....
But I probably don't know enough about it to start debating it here and (remembers the subject of this thread) I'm
again, sorry But then again, we here in Ireland have a written constitution yet our government still manages to piss all over it by continuing to permit American warplanes and armed military to land for refueling at Shannon Airport enroute to Iraq
My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely 
Posted:Written by: Prometheus
The 2nd was designed to allow private citizens to bear arms for the reason of going up against our own army. Can you imagine going up against a military force with all the assault weapons you could possibly own? They'd obliterate you from the next county.
But... would our own Army turn on our own people in full? You're not considering the fact that many soldiers might side with the people they grew up with before joining the Army. They're not mindless like that, I assure you.
I'm not going to jump up and say "free access to firearms is great and should be encouraged!" but I will say that allowing the citizenry to own weapons has not been a huge detriment to our society. You talk about gun crimes, but the majority of those are performed with illegally-obtained weapons that may or may not have even originated in American stores.
I definitely agree with Prometheus - the answer is somewhere in the middle, apart from the extremes. Rednecks shooting machine guns to the tune of death metal music is one extreme that makes gun use look INCREDIBLY irresponsible and gratuitous, but the other side is just as ineffective with their "any weapons are inherently evil, and those who seek them are extremist militia members devoted to an obsolete cause."
I believe one thing is being ignored here, and that's the prevalence of responsible gun ownership in the US. It's like the drunk driving analogy people use to encourage alcohol prohibition - in so doing they completely overlook the vast majority that can go to the pub, drink responsibly, nominate a Designated Driver, etc. Any weapon I own is locked away without any bullets in it so that nobody can stumble across it by accident, and I only take them out when I intend to use them (for target shooting, hunting, etc). And once again, I'm saying I represent the vast majority of gun owners in the US. Please don't stereotype us...
The 2nd was designed to allow private citizens to bear arms for the reason of going up against our own army. Can you imagine going up against a military force with all the assault weapons you could possibly own? They'd obliterate you from the next county.
But... would our own Army turn on our own people in full? You're not considering the fact that many soldiers might side with the people they grew up with before joining the Army. They're not mindless like that, I assure you.
I'm not going to jump up and say "free access to firearms is great and should be encouraged!" but I will say that allowing the citizenry to own weapons has not been a huge detriment to our society. You talk about gun crimes, but the majority of those are performed with illegally-obtained weapons that may or may not have even originated in American stores.
I definitely agree with Prometheus - the answer is somewhere in the middle, apart from the extremes. Rednecks shooting machine guns to the tune of death metal music is one extreme that makes gun use look INCREDIBLY irresponsible and gratuitous, but the other side is just as ineffective with their "any weapons are inherently evil, and those who seek them are extremist militia members devoted to an obsolete cause."
I believe one thing is being ignored here, and that's the prevalence of responsible gun ownership in the US. It's like the drunk driving analogy people use to encourage alcohol prohibition - in so doing they completely overlook the vast majority that can go to the pub, drink responsibly, nominate a Designated Driver, etc. Any weapon I own is locked away without any bullets in it so that nobody can stumble across it by accident, and I only take them out when I intend to use them (for target shooting, hunting, etc). And once again, I'm saying I represent the vast majority of gun owners in the US. Please don't stereotype us...
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
DeletePosted:Holas... just quickly... I think the fact that the laws can be interpreted in the courts, usually through common sense and precedents, is a good thing.
It can certainly have it's shortcomings, but it leaves a healthy amount of flexibility in the system.
Anyways, responsible gun ownership is not being overlooked Dio, but when irresponsible gun ownership results in so many innocent deaths you have to question how viable it is.
It can certainly have it's shortcomings, but it leaves a healthy amount of flexibility in the system.
Anyways, responsible gun ownership is not being overlooked Dio, but when irresponsible gun ownership results in so many innocent deaths you have to question how viable it is.
Getting to the other side
Posted:Written by: Dio
But... would our own Army turn on our own people in full? You're not considering the fact that many soldiers might side with the people they grew up with before joining the Army. They're not mindless like that, I assure you.
I'd bet people said the same thing just before the Civil War, that the country's division was not so strongly felt that brother would fight brother, but it happened. Soldiers do go through a certain amount of brainwashing, and should something drastically horrible like that take place, 99% are going to follow their orders and act against civilians. They will be ordered to view the public as the enemy
But... would our own Army turn on our own people in full? You're not considering the fact that many soldiers might side with the people they grew up with before joining the Army. They're not mindless like that, I assure you.
I'd bet people said the same thing just before the Civil War, that the country's division was not so strongly felt that brother would fight brother, but it happened. Soldiers do go through a certain amount of brainwashing, and should something drastically horrible like that take place, 99% are going to follow their orders and act against civilians. They will be ordered to view the public as the enemy
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
Posted:hey dantana, just a quick question.. you keep writing all these "facts" about the UK and China. but have you ever been to either of those places.. better yet, have you been outside of the US, or even the midwest??
i personally have, i have lived in both Indonesia and Zimbabwe, but i have also lived in Austria.. now Indonesia and Zim (lived in both for 3 years) are potentially dangerous countries to live in.. in Ind. there were riots due to the elections that took place at the time, and me being a little white boy had no problem walking around the city (without bodyguards if thats what youre thinking
)
In Zim, a country where being white is not very appreciated and calling the police usually doesnt help cuz either it takes them an hour to get there or they dont show up at all (all thanks to the Pres. there being a selfish turd and keeping all the capable officers and soldiers to defend his palace) i also went to an International school and had no problem going out in the city at night.. that school by the way was less heavily guarded than the school in vienna i went to
which takes me straight to vienna... there i lived for 4.5 years.. vienna is one of the safest cities in the world, with a population of merely 1.8 million ppl.. in all the time that i lived there i not once heard of anyone getting killed by use of a firearm.. my point is that i could do exactly the same things in Vienna as i could in Harare (Zim) and Jakarta (Ind.) in my opinion you have no right to say that in the UK people are cowarding in their homes for fear of criminals carrying illegal guns just because they dont have guns themselves..sure, in vienna people did have illegal guns: theres the turkish, russian and serbian maffia all very active, there are just plain thugs who have them.. but no one is afraid because they are not used as often as in the States.. not by criminals and not by "law-abiding civialians" as you so politically correct have coined them..
please answer my question?
i personally have, i have lived in both Indonesia and Zimbabwe, but i have also lived in Austria.. now Indonesia and Zim (lived in both for 3 years) are potentially dangerous countries to live in.. in Ind. there were riots due to the elections that took place at the time, and me being a little white boy had no problem walking around the city (without bodyguards if thats what youre thinking
)In Zim, a country where being white is not very appreciated and calling the police usually doesnt help cuz either it takes them an hour to get there or they dont show up at all (all thanks to the Pres. there being a selfish turd and keeping all the capable officers and soldiers to defend his palace) i also went to an International school and had no problem going out in the city at night.. that school by the way was less heavily guarded than the school in vienna i went to
which takes me straight to vienna... there i lived for 4.5 years.. vienna is one of the safest cities in the world, with a population of merely 1.8 million ppl.. in all the time that i lived there i not once heard of anyone getting killed by use of a firearm.. my point is that i could do exactly the same things in Vienna as i could in Harare (Zim) and Jakarta (Ind.) in my opinion you have no right to say that in the UK people are cowarding in their homes for fear of criminals carrying illegal guns just because they dont have guns themselves..sure, in vienna people did have illegal guns: theres the turkish, russian and serbian maffia all very active, there are just plain thugs who have them.. but no one is afraid because they are not used as often as in the States.. not by criminals and not by "law-abiding civialians" as you so politically correct have coined them..
please answer my question?
Delete
Posted:Written by: Prometheus
Plus humans are naturally aggressive, so I doubt it would stay that way for long.
my friend, how can you possibly say that humans are naturally agressive? am i, along with all the hundreds of thousands of other pacifists in the world, a gross exception and with thus die out due to naturaly selection (i dont wanna die!!) or are you saying this because our ancient and club-wielding ancestors used violence to kill animals in order to eat and therefore in order to survive?
Seriously, on what do you base this outrageously out of context comment?
Plus humans are naturally aggressive, so I doubt it would stay that way for long.
my friend, how can you possibly say that humans are naturally agressive? am i, along with all the hundreds of thousands of other pacifists in the world, a gross exception and with thus die out due to naturaly selection
(i dont wanna die!!) or are you saying this because our ancient and club-wielding ancestors used violence to kill animals in order to eat and therefore in order to survive?Seriously, on what do you base this outrageously out of context comment?
Delete
Posted:Primarily I was referring to American humans, but historically, and unfortunately, people are an animal that will resort to violence far easier than any other alternative. That's why we 'go to war' but have to 'work for peace' (in the words of Bush). Why must it be so easy to throw a punch or fire a weapon, but a chore to be nice to others, does it have to require extra effort to not fight someone?
I just feel that when it comes to fight or flight, we humans seem to favor the former choice. That's not to say it's right, or that pacifists are wrong, I myself am a pacifist, who would only succumb to violence as a last resort of defense. I understand that a certain level of violence is required for basic survival, but we seem to go looking for fights.
In America at least, everything is a fight in our culture, even our rhetoric is violent, we have a war on drugs, the fight against cancer, people battle diabetes and even wrestle with moral dilemas. Ever wonder why do we have different words for murder and killing? (That's a whole other thread though...)
I just feel that when it comes to fight or flight, we humans seem to favor the former choice. That's not to say it's right, or that pacifists are wrong, I myself am a pacifist, who would only succumb to violence as a last resort of defense. I understand that a certain level of violence is required for basic survival, but we seem to go looking for fights.
In America at least, everything is a fight in our culture, even our rhetoric is violent, we have a war on drugs, the fight against cancer, people battle diabetes and even wrestle with moral dilemas. Ever wonder why do we have different words for murder and killing? (That's a whole other thread though...)
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
Posted:sure i see your point prometheus, that it is much easier to fire a gun at someone than to try and peacefully negotiate a truce. but i dont think that you can easily say without any real research that humans are naturally good or evil, violent or peaceful, ignorant or informed..
i always say that humans are naturally greedy, but i guess that isnt right either.. however, a lot of people in history have the tendency to want more than they already have.. whether its power or money, or women for that matter.. the chief of a tribe in Lesotho has at least more than ten wives, and why? because he isnt satisfied with 'doing it' with just one, he wants variation, and in his case, hell get what he wants. Hitler once said he wanted only the Ruhrgebied in Czechoslovakia, and other world leaders appeased him, but he eventually wanted to rule Europe, if not the world if he got the chance.. People always want more and more money and 'stuff' too, in a material sense.. phones with cameras, video recording, faster, better internet connection, a new car after five years because the other is obsolete.. to me thats all crap.. i am far from a materialist, but i do think that i have this innate craving to always want more..
heres another example.. the western world is practically screaming the importance of helping the developing world, but who is really prepared to give up what they have so that they can eat and have a roof over their heads? not many people.. do we really need mobile phones with cameras, television, to fly to the moon, a car that can reach speeds of 350 k/hr?? in my opinion, NO!!
but the point is, i use this phrase too lightly myself.. that humans are innnately greedy... i dont think i can simply say something like that without extensive research into the past..
i always say that humans are naturally greedy, but i guess that isnt right either.. however, a lot of people in history have the tendency to want more than they already have.. whether its power or money, or women for that matter.. the chief of a tribe in Lesotho has at least more than ten wives, and why? because he isnt satisfied with 'doing it' with just one, he wants variation, and in his case, hell get what he wants. Hitler once said he wanted only the Ruhrgebied in Czechoslovakia, and other world leaders appeased him, but he eventually wanted to rule Europe, if not the world if he got the chance.. People always want more and more money and 'stuff' too, in a material sense.. phones with cameras, video recording, faster, better internet connection, a new car after five years because the other is obsolete.. to me thats all crap.. i am far from a materialist, but i do think that i have this innate craving to always want more..
heres another example.. the western world is practically screaming the importance of helping the developing world, but who is really prepared to give up what they have so that they can eat and have a roof over their heads? not many people.. do we really need mobile phones with cameras, television, to fly to the moon, a car that can reach speeds of 350 k/hr?? in my opinion, NO!!
but the point is, i use this phrase too lightly myself.. that humans are innnately greedy... i dont think i can simply say something like that without extensive research into the past..
Delete
Posted:Ok, stats aside, the big issue I have with the American's cavalier attitude towards guns is that it gets carried onto the world stage, and President Bush starts shooting up small countries with his smoking guns policies
Now that Bush has been re-elected, Im sure he feels he has a mandate to continue his pursuit of the axis of evil. The disappointing thing is that any alternatives to his guns solve anything policy will be over looked for at least another term. In the meantime, I have my fingers crossed; hoping Bush doesnt destroy the planet
Hi Prometheus, just a quick comment on your assertion that humans are not naturally aggressive. Anger is a survival trait, and we if we a cornered we get violent. Its how we deal with the anger that makes the difference.
Now that Bush has been re-elected, Im sure he feels he has a mandate to continue his pursuit of the axis of evil. The disappointing thing is that any alternatives to his guns solve anything policy will be over looked for at least another term. In the meantime, I have my fingers crossed; hoping Bush doesnt destroy the planet
Hi Prometheus, just a quick comment on your assertion that humans are not naturally aggressive. Anger is a survival trait, and we if we a cornered we get violent. Its how we deal with the anger that makes the difference.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
DeletePosted:Stickman said "hey dantana, just a quick question.. you keep writing all these "facts" about the UK and China. but have you ever been to either of those places.. better yet, have you been outside of the US, or even the midwest??
Yes, I have lived outside of the USA . I lived in china for three months.
My wife was very frightened about me walking alone. Apparently kidnapping is very big in China. The penalties for it are not very harsh, something like 7 years in prison , if you kidnap a man. 5 years in prison if you kidnap a woman. It is only a 3 year prison sentence if you kidnap a woman, AND sell her into slavery. but at least in china, if someone pulls a knife on me, and I kick them so hard they die, I would not be in trouble. Unlike the UK.
You ask how I can know all these "facts"? Unlike most people, my primary source of information is NOT television. I read.
It is amazing how much information is readily available if people are willing to work for it, instead of sitting there and getting their world views spoon fed to them by the televison.
It is not ME saying that UK subjects cower in terror, it is the UK people who say this, in their own newspapers, magazines and internet articles. If you want to , you can find plenty of articles which speak of this. IT would take one key stroke and 2 clicks a of a mouse button.
Yea, "most" of the UK subjects are not "living in terror" , but a significant percentage of them are. And many of them are unhappy with the government's forced pacivism in the face of criminals.
Yes, I have lived outside of the USA . I lived in china for three months.
My wife was very frightened about me walking alone. Apparently kidnapping is very big in China. The penalties for it are not very harsh, something like 7 years in prison , if you kidnap a man. 5 years in prison if you kidnap a woman. It is only a 3 year prison sentence if you kidnap a woman, AND sell her into slavery. but at least in china, if someone pulls a knife on me, and I kick them so hard they die, I would not be in trouble. Unlike the UK.
You ask how I can know all these "facts"? Unlike most people, my primary source of information is NOT television. I read.
It is amazing how much information is readily available if people are willing to work for it, instead of sitting there and getting their world views spoon fed to them by the televison.
It is not ME saying that UK subjects cower in terror, it is the UK people who say this, in their own newspapers, magazines and internet articles. If you want to , you can find plenty of articles which speak of this. IT would take one key stroke and 2 clicks a of a mouse button.
Yea, "most" of the UK subjects are not "living in terror" , but a significant percentage of them are. And many of them are unhappy with the government's forced pacivism in the face of criminals.
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
DeleteTheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001
![TheBovrilMonkey]()
Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Total posts: 2629
SILVER Member since Sep 2001
Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Total posts: 2629
Posted:What's a significant percentage?
I'm starting to get rather annoyed that you keep telling me a fair amount of people in my country are permanantly hiding away, scared for their lives.
I've never even heard of anyone doing this. Ah, that's right - I'd never know because they'd be too scared to go anywhere or speak to anyone.
Rather than just telling us to do a search for these articles, could you post some links so that we can see what you're reading? It might clear a few things up if everyone's on the same page.
As far as the forced pacifism in the face of criminals goes, at the moment, should we find someone breaking into our home, we can use reasonable force to stop him or get him out.
Unfortunately, 'reasonable force' isn't particularly well defined and since there are generally few witnesses about, it's not unknown for a criminal to start taking people to court.
However, there are events in motion that are supposedly going to sort this out - by letting us use whatever force is neccessary with no fear of a legal backlash. It's being heavily debated at the moment so I'm waiting to see what happens.
Did your internet souces mention this or did you only read one line concerning cowering and how much we like it?
I'm starting to get rather annoyed that you keep telling me a fair amount of people in my country are permanantly hiding away, scared for their lives.
I've never even heard of anyone doing this. Ah, that's right - I'd never know because they'd be too scared to go anywhere or speak to anyone.
Rather than just telling us to do a search for these articles, could you post some links so that we can see what you're reading? It might clear a few things up if everyone's on the same page.
As far as the forced pacifism in the face of criminals goes, at the moment, should we find someone breaking into our home, we can use reasonable force to stop him or get him out.
Unfortunately, 'reasonable force' isn't particularly well defined and since there are generally few witnesses about, it's not unknown for a criminal to start taking people to court.
However, there are events in motion that are supposedly going to sort this out - by letting us use whatever force is neccessary with no fear of a legal backlash. It's being heavily debated at the moment so I'm waiting to see what happens.
Did your internet souces mention this or did you only read one line concerning cowering and how much we like it?
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Delete
Posted:This word Terror.
It seems to figure big in your world Dantana. The US, China and the UK.
I'm just wondering, has its always been like this in your country?
Was there a time when you didnt feel the need to protect yourself with maximum force.
I'm just asking because i live in a unarmed society. I dont fear for my life or the lives of old women. Sure we have crime but every country does.
Maybe its the drink.
Why dont you sell your gun collection and come live here?
It seems to figure big in your world Dantana. The US, China and the UK.
I'm just wondering, has its always been like this in your country?
Was there a time when you didnt feel the need to protect yourself with maximum force.
I'm just asking because i live in a unarmed society. I dont fear for my life or the lives of old women. Sure we have crime but every country does.
Maybe its the drink.
Why dont you sell your gun collection and come live here?
Love is the law.
DeletePosted:ok dantana, you lived in china for an entire three months.. china, a country whose economy is one of the fastest growing in the world.. you did not however live in the UK, a country of which you have the most criticism. I havent lived there either, but im not stating 'facts' about it.. i do know a lot of people who do or have lived there. My brother studied in Cardiff for three years and is currently living in london.. of all the 'terrifying' stories hes told me, i dont recall him mentioning cowaring in terror.. hmmmm.... maybe it just slipped by me..
also, it would be nice if you, not necessarily give us a link to what you read, but tell us who wrote it.. that often plays a big part and its called bias.
also, it would be nice if you, not necessarily give us a link to what you read, but tell us who wrote it.. that often plays a big part and its called bias.
Delete
Posted:my brother lived in china for 3 years in bejing and thought it was one of the safest (in terms of personal well being say walking on the street, as opposed to something like safe work conditions) places he has ever been, granted that was 20 years ago and things change.
I'm also wondering what kind of opinion people are getting from posts by some of my fellow american's here... The states are as safe as or safer than anywhere I have been, and most americans do not carry fire arms around. some americans own them, but even in Texas where owning a gun is completely hassle free, most people I know don't have one and don't care to have one, and the ones I do know keep them very well hidden and locked up. True that in a country of over 300 million, there are bound to be a few idiots running around not being safe, but you really do have to have increadibly bad luck to inadvertantly wind up in the fallout of that. America is nothing like Hollywood movies or its media you know, though I find most of the world (even the parts that should no better) doesn't understand this.
I'm also wondering what kind of opinion people are getting from posts by some of my fellow american's here... The states are as safe as or safer than anywhere I have been, and most americans do not carry fire arms around. some americans own them, but even in Texas where owning a gun is completely hassle free, most people I know don't have one and don't care to have one, and the ones I do know keep them very well hidden and locked up. True that in a country of over 300 million, there are bound to be a few idiots running around not being safe, but you really do have to have increadibly bad luck to inadvertantly wind up in the fallout of that. America is nothing like Hollywood movies or its media you know, though I find most of the world (even the parts that should no better) doesn't understand this.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Posted:vanize, i respect the fact that you are trying to shed new light on this matter, and i also know a lot of american families who do not and do not want/need to own firearms.. one in texas, one in boston, one in virginia, one in CA, etc..
however, the perspective we get (i take it that when you said "parts that should know better" includes holland) IS from movies and media.. the majority here has never been to the states, let alone left their country.. i consider myself extremely lucky having lived where i have, but even growing up in an international environment and being taught to question everything you hear, i am susceptible to believe the stories i hear in the news (not everything of course) just because ive never been to the states and dont know better.. from what dantana is making it sound like, everyone in the states (except DC) has a gun and is not afraid to say so or use it, whether as a 'law abiding citizen' or as a 'criminal'.
however, the perspective we get (i take it that when you said "parts that should know better" includes holland) IS from movies and media.. the majority here has never been to the states, let alone left their country.. i consider myself extremely lucky having lived where i have, but even growing up in an international environment and being taught to question everything you hear, i am susceptible to believe the stories i hear in the news (not everything of course) just because ive never been to the states and dont know better.. from what dantana is making it sound like, everyone in the states (except DC) has a gun and is not afraid to say so or use it, whether as a 'law abiding citizen' or as a 'criminal'.
Delete
Posted:I live in England, and would like to voice the opinion of myself and my most of my friendgroup regarding all this America / war / guns / terror crap. I feel pretty strongly about it so soory if i offend.
America: if you want an empire like wot we had, you have to be a bit harder and less sneaky about it, and actually conquer countries instead of just severely
them up. Booting out a dictator and then thinking you can subtley control his country by stamping your way of life on them won't work. Your King (and i mean Bush) should be on the frontline as you pillage the country so he can declare himself head of state and hoist the ol' stars and stripes in Baghdad...
(and i kno we're involved to, but we kinda got dragged into it. Bush was determined and if we hadn't gone with u, u'd hav lost all democratic links to ANY European country and we might well now be in a political situation of Europe vs. America without any British niceties coming in between)
Guns... Did someone really just claim that we English all stay in every night for fear of being shot??
A. We don't stay in at all. In fact we hav the worst binge-drinking culture in the entire world, and don't need a lot of guns to provide uneccesary violence;
B. We are the hardest nation in the world. Sorry, its just a fact. Now i'm a pacifist, and deplore violence for its own sake. This does not mean that i will not (and hav not) defend(ed) myself viciously when attacked on the street: it's the English mentality. (Kinda like martial arts without the art!)
You don't need a gun to take out someone with a gun, you just need fast fists and a lotta balls...
C. Now after all that i just ranted, do you really think it's a good idea to giv a nation like us more access to firearms??
Finally, terrorism. Now 9/11 was fuckin terrible an everything, you poor capitalists, a tiny tiny percentage of your population got taken down and two buildings got destroyed. In exchange for two buildings, you hav since taken out two COUNTRIES (and counting...). Don't u think that at least makes it even?
Oh yeah, has ANYTHING even resembling terrorism happened to u since? Didn't think so.
(sorry, i'm almost finished)
Now we've got a new (Blair appointed) Chief of Police in England who has just vowed to stop the terrorism over here, but we haven't had ANYTHING AT ALL happen to us. The other day it said on the news that this new guy had foiled an Al-Quaieda plot to crash a plane into Canary Wharf Tower in London.
That's the biggest pile of crap i ever heard.
Would they reaally make another plan to crash a plane into a skyscraper??
Maybe they're just running out of ideas... I know i am...
Sorry about the lack of structure, i'm messy as fcuk
America: if you want an empire like wot we had, you have to be a bit harder and less sneaky about it, and actually conquer countries instead of just severely
them up. Booting out a dictator and then thinking you can subtley control his country by stamping your way of life on them won't work. Your King (and i mean Bush) should be on the frontline as you pillage the country so he can declare himself head of state and hoist the ol' stars and stripes in Baghdad... (and i kno we're involved to, but we kinda got dragged into it. Bush was determined and if we hadn't gone with u, u'd hav lost all democratic links to ANY European country and we might well now be in a political situation of Europe vs. America without any British niceties coming in between)
Guns... Did someone really just claim that we English all stay in every night for fear of being shot??
A. We don't stay in at all. In fact we hav the worst binge-drinking culture in the entire world, and don't need a lot of guns to provide uneccesary violence;
B. We are the hardest nation in the world. Sorry, its just a fact. Now i'm a pacifist, and deplore violence for its own sake. This does not mean that i will not (and hav not) defend(ed) myself viciously when attacked on the street: it's the English mentality. (Kinda like martial arts without the art!)
You don't need a gun to take out someone with a gun, you just need fast fists and a lotta balls...
C. Now after all that
i just ranted, do you really think it's a good idea to giv a nation like us more access to firearms??Finally, terrorism. Now 9/11 was fuckin terrible an everything, you poor capitalists, a tiny tiny percentage of your population got taken down and two buildings got destroyed. In exchange for two buildings, you hav since taken out two COUNTRIES (and counting...). Don't u think that at least makes it even?
Oh yeah, has ANYTHING even resembling terrorism happened to u since? Didn't think so.
(sorry, i'm almost finished)
Now we've got a new (Blair appointed) Chief of Police in England who has just vowed to stop the terrorism over here, but we haven't had ANYTHING AT ALL happen to us. The other day it said on the news that this new guy had foiled an Al-Quaieda plot to crash a plane into Canary Wharf Tower in London.
That's the biggest pile of crap i ever heard.
Would they reaally make another plan to crash a plane into a skyscraper??
Maybe they're just running out of ideas... I know i am...
Sorry about the lack of structure, i'm messy as fcuk
Check t'ya bongall rass klan - Eh!
(chilltheworldout)
Lyreecalbombstylee...
Posted:stickman - It was nice to meet you the other week BTW!
yeah, media is the great deceiver - it apparently makes even many people in the USA believe things contrary to their personal everyday experiece. But most media is fantasy - and even the news is highly biased. Most people in South Africa 100% beleive everything they see on tabloid american talk shows like it is some sort of responsible news source, even though it is obviously perposterous and not even particularly well acted.
And I am continuously amazed about how literally people take the wildest fantasy movies like "Bad Boys" or something like that and decide that LA or New York or where ever is like really that, car chases and all. I mean they are all more than willing to accept that a huge truck going faster than a honda motorcycle is completely ridiculous - but for some reason they take other parts of the movie as evidence of what american life is really like.
The thing that is bothering me about the "American" side of this disscusion is not so much about defending gun possesion - I'm really neither here nor there in that regard (I'm a moderate liberal or a liberal moderate in most regards really), but rather the poor (and unrealistic in my view) light that is being inadvertantly cast upon the USA, which is just playing into this stupid media forged perception the rest of the world has of the States.
For example - when I took Babajaga (native german) to the states (texas in fact) with me this past summer for her first trip there, she was totally amazed at how unlike it was to her expectations and how much more she liked it than she thought she would. when she told her friends here in Berlin about this, their reaction was pretty uniformly that they didn't really beleive beleive her.
But on the otherhand, do you realize how much money is made made selling this false version of america to the world? there is a huge amount of money to be made in belittling the big kid on the block, and no one realises this more or is better qualified to exploit this than america itself.
yeah, media is the great deceiver - it apparently makes even many people in the USA believe things contrary to their personal everyday experiece. But most media is fantasy - and even the news is highly biased. Most people in South Africa 100% beleive everything they see on tabloid american talk shows like it is some sort of responsible news source, even though it is obviously perposterous and not even particularly well acted.
And I am continuously amazed about how literally people take the wildest fantasy movies like "Bad Boys" or something like that and decide that LA or New York or where ever is like really that, car chases and all. I mean they are all more than willing to accept that a huge truck going faster than a honda motorcycle is completely ridiculous - but for some reason they take other parts of the movie as evidence of what american life is really like.The thing that is bothering me about the "American" side of this disscusion is not so much about defending gun possesion - I'm really neither here nor there in that regard (I'm a moderate liberal or a liberal moderate in most regards really), but rather the poor (and unrealistic in my view) light that is being inadvertantly cast upon the USA, which is just playing into this stupid media forged perception the rest of the world has of the States.
For example - when I took Babajaga (native german) to the states (texas in fact) with me this past summer for her first trip there, she was totally amazed at how unlike it was to her expectations and how much more she liked it than she thought she would. when she told her friends here in Berlin about this, their reaction was pretty uniformly that they didn't really beleive beleive her.
But on the otherhand, do you realize how much money is made made selling this false version of america to the world? there is a huge amount of money to be made in belittling the big kid on the block, and no one realises this more or is better qualified to exploit this than america itself.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Posted:
"There ought to be some limits to freedom."
G.W. Bush at a press conference on May 21st, 1999
"There ought to be some limits to freedom."
G.W. Bush at a press conference on May 21st, 1999
Check t'ya bongall rass klan - Eh!
(chilltheworldout)
Lyreecalbombstylee...
Posted:Y'know, about 9/11, yes it was tragic, and sad, but it didn't change the world like everyone over here is being led to believe.
'King' George has a lot of reasons to attack countries like Iraq and they are as far from terrorist retribution as bin Laden is from NYC. He has oil interests, he's appeasing his biblical sense of revenge, and let's not forget that he's making Daddy look good by finishing what he started.
About terrorists not hitting us since then, our johnny-come-lately security has stopped a few 'potential terrorist acts,' but nothing in the nick of time. Don't forget, before 9/11, the last terrorist attack was in '92, or maybe '93, when the Towers were bombed. These are patient people, who waited a decade before trying again. They have the resolve to wait until we aren't looking, tap us on the shoulder and Bob Duke us to the ground.
Not long afterward a journalist, whose name escapes me at the moment, said "the world hasn't changed because of 9/11. We just joined it." America did the same thing in WWII. We complained about the violence, the horror, etc., and until our own interests were affected, we didn't care to see it. Pearl Harbor was attacked and we got all indignant and joined the fight. This invasion of Iraq is not even related to terrorism, and that's what vexes me the most. It's a misdirected atrocity, committed by a gutless fanatic.
...who can't even talk right...
'King' George has a lot of reasons to attack countries like Iraq and they are as far from terrorist retribution as bin Laden is from NYC. He has oil interests, he's appeasing his biblical sense of revenge, and let's not forget that he's making Daddy look good by finishing what he started.
About terrorists not hitting us since then, our johnny-come-lately security has stopped a few 'potential terrorist acts,' but nothing in the nick of time. Don't forget, before 9/11, the last terrorist attack was in '92, or maybe '93, when the Towers were bombed. These are patient people, who waited a decade before trying again. They have the resolve to wait until we aren't looking, tap us on the shoulder and Bob Duke us to the ground.
Not long afterward a journalist, whose name escapes me at the moment, said "the world hasn't changed because of 9/11. We just joined it." America did the same thing in WWII. We complained about the violence, the horror, etc., and until our own interests were affected, we didn't care to see it. Pearl Harbor was attacked and we got all indignant and joined the fight. This invasion of Iraq is not even related to terrorism, and that's what vexes me the most. It's a misdirected atrocity, committed by a gutless fanatic.
...who can't even talk right...
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
Posted:This entire thread has just spiraled out of any logical argument and is quickly becoming a "let's take jabs" where everyone seems to get off on making a quick, abrasive statement without checking for any supporting information, or when information is provided it's being blatantly ignored and it's really making us all look bad. I miss the HoP where everyone got along... now because our governments are doing things differently, it's polarized us against each other as well. I'm not even gonna bother trying anymore, I just wanna spin fire and not deal with this sort of stuff.
My thanks to the level-headed members of this forum who've tried to make a civil argument, sorry the emotions are running too high for it to make much difference.
My thanks to the level-headed members of this forum who've tried to make a civil argument, sorry the emotions are running too high for it to make much difference.
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
DeletePosted:
brovil monkey said , "could you post some links so that we can see what you're reading?"
If you read through the previose pages of this thread, I have posted a few links, but if you want more, here you go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2231291.stm
Bjork is afraid of gangs of muggers in London.
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...mp;siteid=50002
br>
Gun crime near schools.
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp...rd=&teaser=
br>
Fear of crime makes UK most spied-upon nation in Europe.
As for that phrase "" permanantly hiding away, scared for their lives I've never even heard of anyone doing this"...
When Ronald Regan was elected, we heard lots of BS from the libreal press saying "I don't know anyone who voted for Regan." It's all about who you associate with. Regan kicked his opponent's High Knee.... LOL I assume bovril lives in a city, with the police less than a few minutes away on call.... What about all the UK subjects who live in the rural areas, where the police are half an hour away? It' all good if you live next door to a police station.
What ever happened to equlity? It's legal for the queen's men to shoot a burglar, why can't you? Are you not equally human?
I am happy that the UK people's are finally attempting to put an end to the unfair laws that allow criminals more rights than their victims. Such laws are not civilized, and should be elliminated.
People here on HOP seem to get the impresion that I am not a pacivist. I am very much a pacivist. A known criminal with an illegaly owned gun was verbally "threatening to kill my friend, his wife, and to F#@k his little children". You know how much self control that took, for me to NOT pull the trigger and end his life? He walked up into the property. I will admit, my finger started flexing on it's own, my brain had to force my finger to stop flexing at the trigger. THAT is pacivisim. When the Police FINALY arrived again, after 30 minutes, they told me I should have killed him . He was a known violent criminal who had manufcture Methamphetamines, and attempted to kill people with his bare hands many times, for some reason he was out of prison for the last time, on parol. Every time a car came by, the police man grabbed his gun ("is that him?") and was ready to kill the evil man, if needed. I asure you, I would never want to take human's life. But having the capability to defend the lives of innocent children i worth what ever emmotional trauma I would face after taking an evil human's life. ANd the bad man was driven away without a shot fired by me. Almost every person I have spoken to about this (including the police and including "pacivist"hippies) said they would have shot the evil, violent man. Anoter friend of mine there ahd a pocket pistol, he didn't shoot the man either. Who is the pacivist now?
brovil monkey said , "could you post some links so that we can see what you're reading?"
If you read through the previose pages of this thread, I have posted a few links, but if you want more, here you go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2231291.stm
Bjork is afraid of gangs of muggers in London.
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...mp;siteid=50002
br>
Gun crime near schools.
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp...rd=&teaser=
br>
Fear of crime makes UK most spied-upon nation in Europe.
As for that phrase "" permanantly hiding away, scared for their lives I've never even heard of anyone doing this"...
When Ronald Regan was elected, we heard lots of BS from the libreal press saying "I don't know anyone who voted for Regan." It's all about who you associate with. Regan kicked his opponent's High Knee.... LOL I assume bovril lives in a city, with the police less than a few minutes away on call.... What about all the UK subjects who live in the rural areas, where the police are half an hour away? It' all good if you live next door to a police station.
What ever happened to equlity? It's legal for the queen's men to shoot a burglar, why can't you? Are you not equally human?
I am happy that the UK people's are finally attempting to put an end to the unfair laws that allow criminals more rights than their victims. Such laws are not civilized, and should be elliminated.
People here on HOP seem to get the impresion that I am not a pacivist. I am very much a pacivist. A known criminal with an illegaly owned gun was verbally "threatening to kill my friend, his wife, and to F#@k his little children". You know how much self control that took, for me to NOT pull the trigger and end his life? He walked up into the property. I will admit, my finger started flexing on it's own, my brain had to force my finger to stop flexing at the trigger. THAT is pacivisim. When the Police FINALY arrived again, after 30 minutes, they told me I should have killed him . He was a known violent criminal who had manufcture Methamphetamines, and attempted to kill people with his bare hands many times, for some reason he was out of prison for the last time, on parol. Every time a car came by, the police man grabbed his gun ("is that him?") and was ready to kill the evil man, if needed. I asure you, I would never want to take human's life. But having the capability to defend the lives of innocent children i worth what ever emmotional trauma I would face after taking an evil human's life. ANd the bad man was driven away without a shot fired by me. Almost every person I have spoken to about this (including the police and including "pacivist"hippies) said they would have shot the evil, violent man. Anoter friend of mine there ahd a pocket pistol, he didn't shoot the man either. Who is the pacivist now?
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
DeletePosted:Seems pretty civil here to me. The real question is, are we keeping our minds open and listening? We are all presenting some really valid points given our cultures, and personal past eperiences. I can see truth in everyone's views and i am glad they are being expressed. We talked a lot about gun control so far and i just want to reiterate that there is NO RIGHT. The logical person would try to grok the truth in each of them. when cultures collide we all have an opportunity to step out of our experience/programming and redifine ourselves and our beliefs. Vanize's comment about the german lady really strikes it home to me. compassion opens a door to understanding another culture.
we all need to be able to yell at each other sometimes, without getting violent or scared. because sometimes people need to be yelled at before they can step out of their programming. by programming i don't just mean doing what your tv or govt or internet feeds you. i mean your very values, beliefs, thoughtforms and emotions. stay open and let yourself get yelled at!
we all need to be able to yell at each other sometimes, without getting violent or scared. because sometimes people need to be yelled at before they can step out of their programming. by programming i don't just mean doing what your tv or govt or internet feeds you. i mean your very values, beliefs, thoughtforms and emotions. stay open and let yourself get yelled at!
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
Posted:ado-p that is a trick question.
When I was a very younge child, I was living in SE Oklahoma, an extreamly rural area, populated by mountain lions and bears and wolves and poison snakes and deadly spiders, and wild boar, and many other dangerouse animals, (including the two legged variety) As if that isn't bad enough, we have a massive outlaw culture down there, with illegal drug manufacture and usage (per capita) higher than most areas of the "civilized" world. The police are an hour away, if you are lucky, and if they can even find your house. So we learn to survive on our own.
Matters got worse when I lived in Northern California with bigger mountain lions, Bigger Bear, (but fortunately less two legged predators. Living in Rural area AGAIN, I learned to build spears, to accompany on my pastime (hiking) after we found where bear had stripped the bark off a tree 15 feet high.....Then after I moved back to Oklahoma, I got shot at a few times by drunk natives on methamphetamines.. In Minnesota, a crazy Bangledeshi pulled a butcher knife on me for no reason. It was at this time I started to get tired of almost dieing, and I started to carry guns. I have no desire to kill anyone. But I have even less of a desire to die. Yea, prettymuch every time I have almost lost my life through violence, drugs were involved, and unlike a some european contries, drugs like this are illegal, as is gun ownership by people who do drugs.
I know that the true nature of the world is not black and white. But there needs to be some ballance. And with all the exreamist stuff on hop these days, I have been attempting to fight this lack of balance as much as I can. I try compensate for the extreamists of the opposite camp, who seem to be the most vocal. I have seen some realy good logic come out of the closet these last few days.
I was going to move to another country, it would be NZ, where I can easily import most of my gun collection.
When I was a very younge child, I was living in SE Oklahoma, an extreamly rural area, populated by mountain lions and bears and wolves and poison snakes and deadly spiders, and wild boar, and many other dangerouse animals, (including the two legged variety) As if that isn't bad enough, we have a massive outlaw culture down there, with illegal drug manufacture and usage (per capita) higher than most areas of the "civilized" world. The police are an hour away, if you are lucky, and if they can even find your house. So we learn to survive on our own.
Matters got worse when I lived in Northern California with bigger mountain lions, Bigger Bear, (but fortunately less two legged predators. Living in Rural area AGAIN, I learned to build spears, to accompany on my pastime (hiking) after we found where bear had stripped the bark off a tree 15 feet high.....Then after I moved back to Oklahoma, I got shot at a few times by drunk natives on methamphetamines.. In Minnesota, a crazy Bangledeshi pulled a butcher knife on me for no reason. It was at this time I started to get tired of almost dieing, and I started to carry guns. I have no desire to kill anyone. But I have even less of a desire to die. Yea, prettymuch every time I have almost lost my life through violence, drugs were involved, and unlike a some european contries, drugs like this are illegal, as is gun ownership by people who do drugs.
I know that the true nature of the world is not black and white. But there needs to be some ballance. And with all the exreamist stuff on hop these days, I have been attempting to fight this lack of balance as much as I can. I try compensate for the extreamists of the opposite camp, who seem to be the most vocal. I have seen some realy good logic come out of the closet these last few days.
I was going to move to another country, it would be NZ, where I can easily import most of my gun collection.
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
DeleteSimilar Topics
Using the keywords [apologie* bush] we found the following similar topics.1. Forums > apologies for bush [277 replies]
2. Forums > Bush Words [18 replies]
3. Forums > Bush caught redhanded again [28 replies]
4. Forums > Bush and Kerry in Dead Heat [18 replies]
5. Forums > when is the bush gonna burnout [24 replies]
Show more..
© 1998 - 2017 Home of Poi Ltd,
New Zealand unless otherwise stated.
All rights reserved
*All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com.