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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:so sorry

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:Written by:
he's no worse than Bush, simply playing him at his own game



yup. so called "liberals" are finally catching on to the "conservatives' game... about time! how long did rush limbaugh go uncontested? i think THAT'S why the conservatives are so much more organized. they had a head start on the "cult of personality." i see little difference btwn all M M's stuff, the media, rush limbaugh, and
"this whole global warming lie is just environmentalists' political agenda"
and
"there's no PROOF that cigarettes cause cancer"

Its ALL bs.
masses of people need to be led and told. that's humanity's weakness. so what's the solution? lead and tell.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Written by: arashi
masses of people need to be led and told. that's humanity's weakness. so what's the solution? lead and tell.



Dude, that's an awesome quote, I'm writing it down for safe keeping.

And I wish you the best of luck in whatever leadership roles you find yourself in. cool


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Humans can be divided into a few groups.

One group would be the "collectivists" V. the "independants"

The collectivists are people who like to live in groups, close to other people. They also like to have a central authority protect them. OR a central authority to control "other people around them who are being naughty". Because the central authority knows best. Big brother knows best. And the Supream Federal Government will govern our lives with perfection.

This view point is frightening to the next class of humans.

Independants: live in rural areas, away from other people. They do not like a centralized government authority. They believe in protecting themselves, and being able to survive without outside help. These are the people who think the States should have more power.

Look at the USA election Maps. The collectivists choose Kerry. The Indepentants choose Bush.

This is just a short description of collectivist VS. Independant. I encourage you all to read more about this from other sources.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:THe other good system to divide up humans is

Sheep, Wolves, Sheepdogs.

Sheep live in a big group. They have no sharp teeth, so they become the victims of the Wolves. Now, the sheep are not stupid, so they enlist the help of the Sheepdogs. Unfortunatly, it is often difficult for the sheep to tell the difference between between the Wolves and the Sheepdogs. They both have sharp teeth, and are capable of killing.

Many of the sheep are frightened by the Sheepdogs, but these sheep sure are happy when the wolf come around and teh Sheepdog is there to fight the Wolves.

Who are these groups of people?

Wolves: these are the scum of society. THe people who are willing to injure violate and kill (and even eat) their fellow humans. They have no mercy or compassion. Their purpose in life is to destroy other people's lives, in order to make their own better.

Sheep: These are the people work hard every day to earn their fair share. They do not intend to hurt their fellow humans. They are sweet are caring people. Unfortunately they have no sharp teeth with which to defend themselves from the wolves. So they group to gether in large numbers, to be easily protected by the Sheepdogs. Violence is so far from their mind, they cannot concieve of the evilness of the wolf, often thinking the wolves are just missled sheep.

Sheepdogs. Our heros, our wariors, our police, our military, Even private citizens who share the respect of life and peace with the Sheep. They will protect the sheep with their very lives. The SHeepdogs have a peaceful heart, but when they see the wolf trying to eat the innocent little sheep, that is when the Sheepdogs become angry, and use their sharp teeth to kill the wolves.

All this violence is frightening to the tender sheep. And no Sheepdpg would ever want to kill a wolf with no reason. But without the Sheepdogs who are ready and willing to commite violence, the wolves would eat all the sheep.



When 9-11 happened, did you think to yourself.

"I'm so happy I was not on any of those airplanes. That is the most terrifying thing ever. I feel sorry for those poor people on those flights."

Or did you say to yourself...

"I wish I had been on that airplane, so I could have helped fight the terrorists. I would have fought them to the sdeath to save my fellow human. I would have fought to help those airplanes land safely."

Are you a sheep?

Or are you a Sheepdog?

I know when 911 happened, I was one of those who wished they could have been on one of those airplanes, to give my life if need be, but to be there to fight the terrorists. I know many of my fellow men (and women) here in the USA who felt the same. But then, I am not living among collectivists.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:OK, so you can't say anything against the soldiers in Iraq because that's unpatriotic - even though some of them are guilty of war crimes. But it's fine to call innocent victims cowards for not fighting the terrorists on the planes. You want to take the next little step and tell us they supported the terrorists by not acting??

The fact is you're speaking after the fact, and it's real easy to be brave when you're not there and you've got hindsight to make you look better.

When you next spout this bit of self promotion try to recall that at the time the people on the planes didn't know what was planned for them - at the time people hadn't forced airplanes to crash and terrorism wasn't the happy buzz word it is today. The average hijacker was, and still is, as interested in thier own life as other people and so the policies and theories in place lead the authorities to try to get the plane on the ground where they can control the situation.

After 3 planes had crashed into the WTC and Pentagon the people on the plane over Pennsylvania heard about what was going on and then they acted. There was quite a long delay between the first WTC crash and Flight 93 crashing.

These ordinary people the sheep - do extraordinary things when it's needed and to use a catorgisation such as you do is simplistic and naive.

And stop with the silly 'My Granny is equal to a couple of well build thieves' line - you're parroting yourself, and it's nonsense. Your Granny is slower, weaker, has bad eye sight and has already got a barrel of a legally bought handgun in her face before she can even think to reach into her purse for her gun that's buried underneath lipstick and foundation. Chances are she'd be shot if she tried to dig it out, so you're probably better off telling her to just hand over her purse and not to keep so many $100 bills in it.


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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Humans can be divided into a few groups.

One group would be the "collectivists" V. the "independants"

The collectivists are people who like to live in groups, close to other people. They also like to have a central authority protect them. OR a central authority to control "other people around them who are being naughty". Because the central authority knows best. Big brother knows best. And the Supream Federal Government will govern our lives with perfection.

This view point is frightening to the next class of humans.

Independants: live in rural areas, away from other people. They do not like a centralized government authority. They believe in protecting themselves, and being able to survive without outside help. These are the people who think the States should have more power.

Look at the USA election Maps. The collectivists choose Kerry. The Indepentants choose Bush.

This is just a short description of collectivist VS. Independant. I encourage you all to read more about this from other sources.




umm, is it just me or is this contradictory? you see, one of bush's biggest arguments in the elections was that he would be the better candidate to lead the US against terrorism(which by the way when he says it sounds a bit like tourism offtopic but again, thats just me biggrin) that he would be the best to lead the country to safety and security for all US citizens..

so, if these "independants" are really so independant and do not need or want a centralized government to do all the work for them and keep the coutry running smoothly, then why did they all vote for bush? as far as i know kerry promised to improve the public schools and health care in the US (not that promises always mean anything.. bush promised to show evidence of WMD in Iraq, but did he?)
if theses "independants" are so self-sufficient, why are they putting their lives in the hands of someone who promised to LEAD them to victory?


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Simple - his alternative didn't convince enough people he actually had effective plans to achieve the same goals.

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Dom! Did I ever use the word "Coward"? Sound's like a little pavlovian slip. IF you want to use that word to describe a lifestyle and actions, that is fine by me. I thought you were just a peaceful person, I would never call you a coward. I never called you or other sheep "cowards". It is in you nature to get slautered by tyrants and criminals. (wolves) Just as it is in my nature to stop the wolf. It's natural, possibly even genetic.



I am a very peaceful person. But don't try to kill me, and don't try to kill the people I love, and don't violate women. Those things make me ANGRY.... and I will something about it.



While the man who I stopped from raping the woman is still sitting in prison, because I had the guts to fight for what is right. A pacivist let the rapist get away, and rape how many more women that night? Who's method is better in the end? The pacivist went Bah! And the wolf got scared why? Afraid the sheep would go bah louder and hurt his ear? NO, the wolf was afraid the sheep was really a sheep dog. bah!



That's right, what a good sollution. Violence doesn't solve anything, huh? I wonder what the city fathers of Nagasaki would have to say about that... ?



IF 97% of the people on that last plane were NOT sheep. then why did only 3 of them get up and fight? huh? 3 out of how many? a hundred? preaty pathetic stats huh? And like a said, I know a lot of people around here (USA) who would risk their life in the face of almost certain death, to save the day. It's called courage.



And for your info, Dom, it is illegal for felons to buy guns in the USA, and very illeagal to use any gun in a crime. They send people to prison for life for that stuff.



DOM?!?!? And now you are personaly insulting my grandmother? My grandmother with her 12 gauge sitting in her rocking chair stands a better chance at survival (100%) compared to your grandmother holding up her bare hands and begging for mercy (0%).



You want to call me a self serving coward now? I've been shot at by crazy drunk native americans not just once, but twice, WITH AK-47s. I've had a 18" knife pulled on me by a psycho bangledeshian. All these times I was unarmed and still excaped (ran). YOU can call me a coward for this, I perfer to call me ALIVE. I've fought on behalf of three women getting either A: beat mercifullessly and for no good reason, or B: getting rapped.

And most recently I had to use my M-16 to hold off a crazy 2 time violent felon crack head from murdering "3 children one woman and two men". I stood up and pointed my gun at his head, and he chose to not raise his gun. Why? Threat of Violence. I saved 6 lives that night, without even firing a shot. And I did not wet my britches and run.. like a pacivist. It took the police 30 minutes to get there, after the emergency call. The children would now be dead if I had not had the biggest fricken gun at the gun fight.



I've proven my metal in battle, and you have the arogance to call me a coward?


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dr_Molly


Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home

Total posts: 2354
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

I've fought on behalf of three women getting either A: beat mercifullessly and for no good reason, or B: getting rapped.



I'm not going to bother getting into this whole argument, but reading this line just shocked me.
There's a good reason to mercilessly beat a woman?

It's all about the little 'Pavlovian' slips isn't it DJ Dantana?

*hears a bell ring somewhere, gets hungry and wonders where Freud got to*


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:HAH HAH HAH!!!! I was hoping someone would catch it! And the correct answer is? "Bastards and the Bible for $500, Alex."

well, let's see... it would be a good reason to beat a woman in order to stop her from murdering your children....?

eek


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dr_Molly


Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home

Total posts: 2354
Posted:oh, great recovery umm rolleyes



it's the "mercifullessly" that is really telling



and no, there is never a good reason for that.


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Holy crap, you have an M-16?
Why and how on earth did you get hold of one of those?

I think there's something seriously wrong when you can legally wander around with an assault rifle.

I also can't believe that you think you gran is 100% safe from criminals if she has a shotgun.
If anything, a gun will just raise the stakes and end up with someone getting injured.
A mugger doesn't have to shoot someone he's stealing from just because he's pointing a gun at them, I reckon he'd much rather grab the purse and run.
If their intended victim starts pulling a gun of their own, the situation escalates and someone's likely to get shot.
I doubt it'll be the mugger in most cases since they'd have a weapon readied before their victim so most times it'd be better just to hand over the cash and try to get a good description to give to the police.

*slaps himself on the forehead*
Dammit, I'm getting involved in a gun debate again.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:actually, I have an AR-15, which is the civilian version, it is semi-auto. NOT FULL AUTO But since most sheeple would get confused if I said "I had my custom AR-15 rifle with stainless barrel and 3-9 scope on Olympic Arms reciever with double mag cinch"

My grandmother lives 30 miles from the nearest small town. In the southern mountains of Oklahoma. She is not likely to fall victim to attack because out there, everybody has a gun, and only stupid people try to break into houses where the people living there are almost certainly arms. An armed society is a polite society.

You see, in the USA, the places where all the good people can carry guns, it is very safe. WE have teh lowest crime rates in the nation.

In the areas of teh USA that have the strictest gun laws, only the criminals carry guns, (they are law breakers anyways) and the good people cannot deffend themselves when crime strikes. Rape, Murder, evil. These areas also hav ethe highest violent crime rates. (crimes which hurt people)

No, it is not legal (in most states in the USA) to pull out your 9mm and shoot someone stealing your purse.

It is legal in Oklahoma to pull out your 9 and bust a cap if the criminal is trying to kill you, or kill your family member. Any civilized society should be like this. Anything else is insanity.

Since the violent criminals will always carry guns, even where civilians can not, this does not put country folk like my grandma at a disadvantage. It is already illeagal for the criminals to have guns, breaking on more little rule does not make much difference to the common criminal. That is why anti-gun laws only disarm law abiding peaceful people.

This is really simple logic. And it has been proven to work in 38 out of 50 states in the USA.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:P.S.

The other 12 states are the ones with the highest crime rates, and most restrictive gun laws.

Our nation's capitol (Washington, D.C.) has once again gotten the award for highest murder rate. And guns are still completely illegal there, but the criminals still have guns, and the law abiding cower in terror in their homes at night.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Personally, I'd like to see proof, pictures if possible, of people in Washington DC cowering in their homes at night.

Otherwise I'm going to assume that the multitude of bars and restaurants there stay open to cater to all the people who stay out after night falls, rather than closing up at dusk because there'll be no more business until dawn the next day.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way - surely you should be asking the police to do something about the plethora of guns carried by criminals instead of demanding that you be allowed to carry a weapon to defend yourself with? Would you need to carry a firearm of your own everywhere if the criminals weren't likely to be armed?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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mtbeer
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

mtbeer

ARRRR!
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 529
Posted:Good lord DJ Dantana, your life sounds like a Clint Eastwood movie. smile

There are a number of places in DC where you would not want to be at night, that I guarantee.


"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Did anyone else notice interesting and possibly telling details 9 posts up? Or am I just being overly reactive?



Dan: I was reacting to your sheep/wolf/dog thing. It comes across as a mantra people use to make themselves feel bigger, better and self-important. The truth of the matter is the most timid of people can amazing things in dire situations and you just can't classify people without putting individuals in those situations.



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />



It is legal in Oklahoma to pull out your 9 and bust a cap if the criminal is trying to kill you, or kill your family member. Any civilized society should be like this. Anything else is insanity.





Firstly your choice of words sounds a little like you're enjoying playing cops & robbers. The reason why civilised countries don't allow this is that it's often hard to prove that a dead man might have been threatening you or not. I could kill you with a legally bought gun and claim then were going to kill me. You carry a gun after all, I'd claim you were threatening me with it.



With guns you do just keep on raising the stakes. Your granny's shotgun and your semi-auto are worthless if I've already got my gun pointed at you, or if I just decide to shoot you first before stealing your car. After all, chances are you've got a gun so I might as well not take my chances. This happens in quite a few countries where life has lost a lot of value.



And I'm wondering why, powerlessly cowering in fear as we obviously are in London, nobody I ever know has been in anything near the situations you're describing. I've lived and spent plenty of time in some of the dodgyest parts of London, including London's gun crime capital of Hackney where my brother lives, and I've never seen as much violent crime as you have. Never seen a knife outside a kitchen and never seen a gun in London that wasn't carried by a police officer.



So maybe Bovril's right: it's just that law and order has broken down in America and you need a better society and a more efficent police force.



I'm still feeling pretty safe in London town smile



Edit:

Oh, fact check again.

Number of people who acted against the hijackers of Flight 93: unknown. However 5 of them mentioned on the phone that "we're" about to do something. So these 5 helped over power 3 hijackers in the cabin then the 2 in the cockpit. There's not actually much space in a plane for more people to get involved in a ruckus.

Number of people on the plane: 37 + 5 crew.

Being realistic I'm excluding passengers who were over 65 (6). I get 14%.

Obviously it was a Sheepdog transport plane.


EDITED_BY: Dom (1101736620)


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stickman


World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||

Total posts: 580
Posted:i sort of agree with dom in his last comment.. i wouldnt go as far as to say that law and order have broken down, or that life in meaningless in the US.. however i would like to say that i think its absurd to demand that civilians should be allowed to carry guns legally do defend themselves from criminals who have them illegally..i think if all the criminals in DC have illegal guns there is a serious problem with controlling the black market there.. i think the gov't, instead of pumping billions of dollars PER DAY into the war in iraq(or the initiation of it) should open their eyes and realize what is going on in their own courty, in their own capital.. if it so easy to get illegal guns in DC, dont you think there is something wrong with the law enforcing forces and their control on illegal shipments of goods??

and like i said, no i dont think life is meaningless in the states, but dantana, even if i was in your position where i had my AR-15 pointed at a potential murderers head, i would never be able to take anybody's life.. what gives you the right to say that your life is better or more important than theirs, even if it is just a mugger in a dark alley? they are still people.. for that matter i wouldnt be able to shoot a bunny rabbit or a duck.. they are all living creatures... you think pacifism is insanity? i have lived in the Capital of Zimbabwe for three years, a city with an enormously high crime rate, and not once in my life did i fall witness to a mugging, a car-jacking, a rape, a threat with a fire-arm, or even catch a glimpse of a gun except in the hands of the guards protecting the president's palace..



like i said, no life in the states is not meaningless, but i think people are far too rash about using a gun.. it is common in the states, is it not, to pull a gun on someone and possibly shoot them when they are breaking into your house? a friend of mine in vienna did not live in the safest neighborhood.. she (a tall blond, not some muscular body builder) caught a glimpse of the robber, and he saw her too, and he just ran.. in the end she went to the police, gave a description of the guy, and he is now in jail.. a perfect example of a crime solved without even a punch thrown, or even a threat to do so.. now if guns were as readily available in vienna as they are in the US, then the robber most likely would have had one, and my friend would not being a pacifist.. in that case it is very likely that the robber would have shot my friend for fear of being found out.. then my friend, someone like me who could not shoot a rabbit, would be dead because some stranger was robbing HER house, was trying to steal HER possessions. she was not the criminal, but would still be dead, and for what reason? because the real criminal was afraid to live up to the consequences of his actions.. now i ask you, is that justifiable to kill someone?

EDITED_BY: stickman (1101733382)


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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

....and the law abiding cower in terror in their homes at night.



[dubya accent] *.......we must rid the world of these evildoers.... smoke 'em out of their holes....* [/dubya accent]

i personally would also like to hear from anyone in DC, and hear first hand if they are indeed cowering in their homes in terror....

and by the way Dan, you never answered my question. you've mentioned twice now, in 2 posts, that "an armed society is a polite society". so explain the likes of Jamaica and Brazil......


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:just an obseration...

it seems to me that the whole 'gran carrying a shotgun in her purse' thing represents only one aspect of the gun debat - in the short ter DJ Dan is likely to be right - your gran would have more of a chance.

but what i worry about with gun legalisation is the long term effects of a gun being a normal thing for people to carry around. I guess you call it 'gun culture', the longer guns are legal for the more people (both criminal and law abiding) will own them. Banning guns right now might not stop criminals from owning them, but give it 50 or even 100 years and you will have changed the culture around firearms.

a good example of this is the drink driving laws. Before drink driving was illegal people would quite commonly have 'one for the road' and when they brought i legislation it didn't really change much, but there was a gradual cultural shift, and so now people who drink and drive are noticed as unusual at the very least. A lot of people will refuse to get in to a car if the person driving it has been drinking at all (even if they are under the legal limit). it's all down to societal change, and in the long term that can ony lead to a safer society where less people get shot!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Dom said, "I could kill you with a legally bought gun and claim then were going to kill me"

That would make you a criminal. Criminals aren't allowed to own guns, duh. ROFL Besides, you don't own a gun, and can't buy one. They are illegal, remember?. :P What, what's that you say? You can go out on the street and buy one on the black market? How could that be Dom? I thought England had no guns?

"I'm still feeling pretty safe in London town " I'm sure a lot of people in washington DC, the murder capitol of the USA, are feeling pretty safe too. Ignorance is bliss.

Stickman said "i would like to say that i think its absurd to demand that civilians should be allowed to carry guns legally do defend themselves from criminals who have them illegally"

Are you insane man?

You ask, "what gives you the right to say that your life is better or more important than theirs"

I'll tell you what makes my life more important than their's. They are about to murder innocent women and children. I am not.
Is that such a difficult thing to grasp? Is it better that the innocent children should die, so as to avoid killing the evil man?

Gee guys I too could come up with a 100 life threatening events and senarios that do not require a gun to survive. And I could also give you 2,000,000 newpaper articles per year showing where a gun SAVED the life of an innovent person. If you care to open your mind and research the web, you'll see it happenes a lot in the USA.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Stickman said " it is common in the states, is it not, to pull a gun on someone and possibly shoot them when they are breaking into your house?"

Why are they breaking into your house? Are they there to give you a foot massage? Are they there to put gifts under your christmas tree? Are they there to rape you? Murder you???? Do you know the mind of that criminal? I know the pacivist sollution.

tongueut up your hands and say : "take anything you want, and please don't kill me" :assume the fetal possition, wet your pants, and hope they decide to not kill you for being a witness:

How does it feel to be helpless? Probably similar to what the Jews felt like while Hitler was herding them up like sheep to be slaughtered.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:ya know dantana, i have read only THIS PAGE of this thread, and I think your full of [censored]...........have you ever been out side of your little republican state, do you know that there is a world out side of OK? and i want you to PROVE your were shot and stabed all those times you claim..........hell i can sit here and type that i was hit a bus whil saveing a girl from being raped, and after that i was shot in the head by a 9mm while saveing a kitten from some bastard red neck from oklahoma, doesnt make it true..........i hate to be the one to break it to you but..........YOU ARE MAKEING YOUR SELF SEEM LIKE AN ASS HOLE.........my suggestion, get the hell out of OK, see the rest of the world, and THEN youll understand that its attitudes like YOURS that give the world their bad impression on the rest of americans...............

p.s. the opinons and views expressed by dantana are his own and do not reflect the views and opinons of the rest of america (maby we should put that before all of bush's speaches too?)


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Fryed Fish - please try not to be so pesonally insulting towards another board member.
Thanks.


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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:sorry dom...............it just gets to me, i have been all around the world, and everytime i mentioned i was american, i had to deal with attitudes from time to time, and work my ass off to get people to understand not all americans are like that..........but sorry none the less

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:OK Dan. I'll admit that you're completely right and all your arguments have been correct (even the maths bits) if you can prove, as you just implied:

1) I ever said there were no guns in the UK. Bonus points if you can prove I didn't mention that I lived for years in a house that contained firearms and fired them myself.
2) That you can't buy guns on the black market in the US
3) That the US has developed some pretty kickarse technology that ensures that criminals can never use firearms and that legally bought firearms are never used for 'evil' purposes. By the sounds of it this technology means that the second somebody commits a criminal offence they're unable to wield a firearm and time is altered so that that person could never have even bought the gun in the first place. Neato!
4) 2,000,100 newspaper clippings from 29th November 2003 to present day. Although to be fair I'll compile a list of clippings detailing: accidental deaths & injuries; and crimes committed with legally manufactured and purchased firearms. I'll add the number of those clippings to the 2 million you need to provide.

Hope you don't mind if I get on with some cooking while I'm waiting....


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:1) ok, so you caught me being silly. Of course there are guns in the UK. there are guns everywhere. Are you admiting that a person could purchase a gun illegaly in the UK? For as little as 200 pounds? (as your police seem to indicate that is the going price)

2) you can buy guns in every black market in the whole world. (even in the UK and China)

3) we are working on it. wink For now all we can do is punish people who use guns in crimes MORE SEVERLY than we do other criminals... and we DO. I do wish technology did exist to keep guns out of the hands of known violent criminals.

Still, a gun can be manufactured by anyone with half a brain and basic skills with hand tools.

4) of course that is an imposible task for little ol' me. Instead, allow me to mention the work of people who have done it already.

Research by award-winning criminologist Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz reveals Americans use guns for self-defense as often as 2.5 million times a year--that`s three to five times more often than they are misused by criminals.

http://www.nra-ila.com/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=125
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"Neal Knox" has calculated via newpaper and police reporting, that guns in the USA are used in defence 2,000,000 times per year.

Also, it has been well documented by the NRA (national rifle association, a 100 year old well respected organization) that based on police reports, guns are used in defence in the USA more than 1,500,000 times per year(these are old numbers). This is a very conservative estimate.

Dom, thank you for being such a gentleman and discussing a sensitive topic such as this without reverting to profanity or anger or personal slander.

The facts remain the same over here, places in the USA with lots of laws against guns, also have much high crime rates. In states where laws have been passed to allow "law abiding citizens" to carry guns, the crime rates have plumeted. Florida was the first, their crime rate dropped 85% in the first year.

The crime rates in states which are copying Florida's laws, also show the same dramatic trend. These laws almost always require safety training and education in the laws on lethal force, and they always require a criminal records check, to be certain a citizen has no criminal record. In Oklahoma, it is an 8 hour class.

Where as in states in the USA where gun control has been getting progressively stricter, the crime rates continue to rise.

It seems criminals are more afraid to commit crimes when they know the victim could be armed.

Polls of criminals in prison support this, they admit to being more afraid of citizens with guns, than cops with guns.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:But the states don't have controlled borders and people and guns flow freely between them. It's a fact that in the US having licensing and registration laws does make it harder for criminals to own guns. But in a US city with both laws 66% of the guns used in crimes (and recovered) weren't bought in that state (Source: Johns Hopkins University). If all the states had a huge crackdown on guns and knives to the extent of the UK the amount of violent crime might well fall nationwide. It's just that as you are very pro gun you just assume the answer is to arm everyone equally.

Restrictive gun laws are as much about setting a message that a gun culture is not wanted and tolerated. This is the case in the UK were there's a minimum 5 year jail term for owning an illegal firearm. Whereas in America you guys get a stiffy just thinking about the things (Bill Hicks quote).

Aside: interesting all this talk of stats is pretty pointless. As the author of that study wrote: "It's very, very, hard to figure out the reason crime goes up and down or that crime itself is higher or lower in one place or another. The reason is that there are so many factors that could effect why crime goes up and down over time or why it goes up and down from place to place."


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:If you arm everyone in the country, criminals aren't going to be more afraid, just more cautious. If they want(need) to commit a crime, they're going to find a way. Gun ownership won't change that. They're just going to better arm thmselves, with bigger, better firearms, maybe invest in body armor, and go in to a place with said weapon already drawn, ready for a pre-emptive strike...hmm, this sounds like someone's foreign policy, doesn't it?
If they can't improve their arsenal, wouldn't they replace superior firepower with daring and resolve. It's human nature to be afraid, and fear makes someone in a desperate situation more desperate.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Written by: Dom
Restrictive gun laws are as much about setting a message that a gun culture is not wanted and tolerated.



America was founded as a gun culture, by a group of men who used their weapons responsibly when there was no other alternative. It worked well for us then, and it appears to work well for us now. How would you convince America to pursue another path when the one it's on has been successful?

And no, it is not easy to "make" a gun. Many factors are involved (such as material tolerances) that average Joe Shooter would either not take into account (worst-case "boom" scenario) or grossly overdesign for (best-case scenario). Ammunition, either commerically-purchased or homemade, also has to be designed for, as you can't just drop something explosive down a tube and expect it to project out straightaway. The best you can really expect in homemade manufacture is small-scale explosive devices, such as the I.E.D.'s you always hear about on the news. That's why a criminal won't make a weapon, he'll purchase one. And the purchase will be performed illegally, most likely in the same manner that the dealer got the weapons in the first place. Gun laws only apply to the law-abiding, it's a proven fact.

I have a few guns in my possession, locked away safely but ready to acquire in an emergency (like when an armed robber was running loose through my neighborhood trying to find his way to safety). I've hunted, I've shot targets, and though I enjoy the activities I mentioned, I do not experience any sort of arousal over them (suggested by Dom, as quoted by Mr. Hicks). biggrin *I* am your typical gun owner in the US, not the unfortunate stereotypes I know you've been exposed to.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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