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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:so sorry

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:I must respond to Glass's hysterical post.

Glass said "Yes the 100 000, one hundred thousand dead iraqi civilians killed by our invasion, I'm sure that they are very happy, and their sons and daughters,
and their wives and husbands
and their parents."

How about the constantly cited figure of 100,000 Iraqis killed by Americans since the war began? It is a statistic thrown about with total and irresponsible abandon by war opponents. That number, which should be disputed at every turn by those who care about the truth of what is going on in Iraq, came from a controversial study by the British journal of medicine, The Lancet.

It is five to six times higher than the HIGHEST estimates from other sources of all Iraqi deaths, either military or civilian. The Lancet study relied on reporting of deaths self-reported by 998 families from clusters of 33 households throughout Iraq, a very limited sample from which to generalize.

As a recent article in the Financial Times reported on Nov. 19, even the Lancet studys authors are now having second thoughts. eek Iraqs Health Ministry estimates by comparison that all told, 3,853 Iraqis have been killed and 15,517 wounded.

Glass said "You're media is trash, I know, I get weekly reports of the sh!t it spews out from my parents.
If you want another one there was zero connection between Sadam and Terrorists. and Sadam had NO weapons of mass distruction"

Looks like someone has been getting their education from Michael Moore Movies. Keyword MOVIE. If you care to open your mind to the truth

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
br>
Then again, some people believe things because they want to.

Notice how Moore narates it at about a 3rd grade reading level? Is that because he is targeting it at people with low intelligence? Or is he targeting it at people who are more likely to believe what they see in a movie, without verifying it with outside sources? Ever had a historical debate with someone who cites movies as references? "It is true, I saw it on Braveheart!"

Moore shows scenes of Baghdad before the invasion (read: liberation) and in his weltanschauung, its a place filled with nothing but happy, smiling, giggly, overjoyed Baghdadis. No pain and suffering there. No rape, murder, gassing, imprisoning, silencing of the citizens in these scenes.

The most offensive sequence in "Fahrenheit 9/11"s long two hours lasts only a few minutes. Its Moores file-footage depiction of happy Iraq before the Americans began their supposedly pointless invasion. You see men sitting in cafes, kids flying kites, women shopping. Cut to bombs exploding at night.

What Moore presumably doesnt know, or simply doesnt care about, is that the building you see being blown up is the Iraqi Ministry of Defense in Baghdad. Not many children flew kites there. It was in a part of the city that ordinary Iraqis werent allowed to visiton pain of death.

Iraq was ruled by a regime that had forced a sixth of its population into fearful exile, that hanged dissidents (real dissidents, not people like Susan Sontag and Tim Robbins) from meathooks and tortured them with blowtorches, and filled thousands of mass graves with the bodies of its massacred citizens.

Yes, children played, women shopped and men sat in cafes while that stuff went onjust as people did all those normal things in Somozas Nicaragua, Duvaliers Haiti and for that matter Nazi Germany, and as they do just about everywhere, including in Iraq today.

Items you never hear about in the liberal main stream media (AKA stuff Glass hears but doesn't believe because he doesn't want to believe it):

The US is constructing thousands of schools in Iraq.

Electric service is now better than under Saddam.

Iraqi people are feeling their first breath of freedom.

Iraqi's are feeling their first self-determination.

Most combatants are coming from Syria and Iran.

Iraqi's are clamoring for ANYTHING made in the USA.

Aside from the small number of combatants, the vast majority of Iraqi's appreciate the US.

The vast majority of Iraqi's polled said the US should stay in Iraq for at least another year.

And here's another poll from the New York Times (a liberal news service)

2/3 of Iraqis say ouster of Saddam a good thing, Gallup poll finds.

Poll says Iraqis believe Hussein's ouster was worth trouble
-New York Times


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:oh boy now it's really gonna hit the fan rolleyes

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Of course I could come up with another link debunking Kopel's debunking....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462
br>
And I don't think that Moore was trying to imply that the exact same place as he had filmed was getting blown up. Perhaps you should read the film in a less literal sense?

Oh, and lots of your other facts are misleading as well e.g. the electricity in Iraq is still above pre-war levels, but still below pre-Gulf War I levels. I'm not sure where you got your polling information from - according to Time magazine

Written by:
"Some 80 percent of respondents to a Gallup poll taken in Iraq shortly before the Fallujah operation wanted the U.S. forces to leave immediately after the January 31 election"



If there's a more recent poll that completely contradicts this I'd be very interested in reading about it.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Moore shows scenes of Baghdad before the invasion (read: liberation) and in his weltanschauung, its a place filled with nothing but happy, smiling, giggly, overjoyed Baghdadis. No pain and suffering there. No rape, murder, gassing, imprisoning, silencing of the citizens in these scenes.




That pretty much sounds like the way you describe the states.


Love is the law.

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:All this discussion and I should have just left Dan talking to prove that carrying guns is not an effective way to tackle crime:

Written by: DJ Dantana

The little 22 pistol in Kaleb's hand had no effect on the BG's actions.



Only a 22 I know - but should we all carry semi-automatics round with us? ubblol

And not everyone watches Moore noon and night - I know for a fact that Glass has not watched Farenheit 9/11 'cos I told him not to bother watching it.


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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Thanks for those answers, Dantana.

I have more questions though wink

So, the police had already been and gone? Was this because the man physically assaulted Kaleb earlier? If so, why was the man able to return to Kaleb so soon afterwards? Why didn't the police keep him in custody?

My point is again, the behaviour of the police. I see you haven't answered whether you're campaigning for faster police reaction rates, but surely if the police force was at a satisfactory level, you wouldn't have been put into these situations and thus have little need to own or use a firearm?


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:laaa laa la
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm
br>
Arashi. I'm so glad you didn't hand me the phone wink


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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:Hi again spanner, no problem, I'll answer any questions you have. Here's the dude's name too "David Micheal Pierce" (I think that is the spelling) He lives Noble County, Oklahoma. HE goes by Mike. He is a trained boxer, and has gone to prison previously for beating people up untill they were almost dead, and manufacturing and using illegal drugs, Methamphetamines.

Prevously that day, "Mike" had been going around the town of Orlando, telling everybody he was looking to fight, was getting saved (becoming a christian) next month so he needed to get it all done now, because nothing he did now would matter after he was "saved".

Kaleb never did anything to the guy, Kaleb just so happened to be the random victim Mike was looking for.

The bad guy physicaly assaulted Kaleb, in Kaleb's own front yard (Paul is Kaleb's neighbor) The the bad guy came back with a gun, and knocked on Kaleb's door, Paul saw it and called the cops. Paul also called me, because he knew the police wouldn't stick around all day and night to protect him and his wife, and his little children, Kane 7, Gavin 5, and Cloe 3. The bad guy was never in police custody that day or night, or the next day. In fact, the bad guy came back the next day, with his "mentor" the guy who was supposed to be helping rehabilitate the bad guy, (so he wouldn't go back to prison for life). The BG came back and BEGGED for forgiveness. And since we try wink to be good christian folk, we forgave him. And we let him know, that if he came back around again and threatened people's lives (and threatened to rape little children) , we had full permision from the authorities to kill his @55. Thus, he has never been back. He is afraid for his life to come back and try to hurt us. If we didn't have guns, Mike would not afraid to come around, what would we do? Call the cops? the cops take an hour to arrive. WE could ALL be dead by then.

And hopefully, after sobering up the next day, Mike really did have the fear of god in him, and really did shape up., lose the gun, and get off the tweek. We could have pressed charges and he would have went to prison, possibly for life.. and we can still press charges in the future, as we have witesses, 911 telephone calls, and a police statement on file, and ol' boy has a rap sheet the length of my arm.

Spanner, as for your last series of questions, I forgot to mention that the town of Orlando, Oklahoma has a population of 300 and has no police force. The nearest police are 20 miles away... and IF they can find your house, they will be there in about 30 minutes to one hour.

There are many places in the USA, indeed, in the world, where there are no police hanging out next door. People who live in communities with police often forget this. And when city folk start banning gun, they are in a way discriminating against people who do not have police stations next door. And even in cities where there are police, the police take time to get there. It only takes a few moments for a crime to take place. Even if the police can get there in one minute, that can be 50 seconds to long.

Dom, the point was, the dude was crazy, and a 22 pistol would have stopped him, physicaly. But he was not AFRAID of it, because he was high on meth, and his pistol was much bigger. However, the BG was afraid of a big nasty "assault rifle". Kaleb could have killed the BG, but none of us good guys wanted to kill anybody. Perhaps you just missread the part where my big gun did stop the criminal, and nobody had to die.

wink a link for an 8 month old poll, Glass... :P I think the situation is not as bad as some people like to claim. And it is not as good as some people like to claim. To say that 100,000 Iraqis have died is rediculous. Just as it is rediculous to say that EVERYBODY over there want's the USA to stay there forever. Although about 10% of them DO want the USA to stay indefinitely... hah hah hah, yea right.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:http://www.packing.org/talk/thread.jsp/33652/
br>
"I'm a permanent Resident, and I had no problem buying a gun in Texas. Just to be given the privilege to stay in the US now requires extensive FBI checks (rightly so). As such, as long as you are here as an immigrant, and not a non-immigrant (ie you have a green card and are not here on some temporary H1-B visa or something like that), you can possess a firearm. It's just one of those things that makes it great to be here! I came over from Britain. It sometimes seems like only the bad guys are allowed guns over there. " -fragman


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:1) The point still proves that having a gun doesn't always stop a crime. Having a bigger gun may, but that's a vicious cycle ending in death.

2) It's an 8 month old poll - things have being getting worse since and everyone from the Iraqi president to the CIA have agreed that huge mistakes have been made and some (including the CIA) are saying the country is headed for civil war. People in Iraq are not happy - and trust me, my sources include a couple of prominent Iraqi's working for the Iraqi government and not via any media.
And survey's depend upon the questions asked - which are easily skewed.

3) And now you're cutting and pasting other people's opinions expressed on a pro gun website to back up your own! If you're feeling out gunned here, so to speak, and unable to come up with novel discussion points then give up.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Excuse me Dan, but isnt about time you took those blinkers off.

Does it really matter if the death toll 2,000 or 100,000?

People are getting killed for no reason, other than Uncle Sam had a hard day at the office and decided that he needed to boost his ego by beating up a small country, and in the process acquiring all that countries assets and possibly starting world war 3.

And hey, I dont believe any of that needing a gun for self-protection rubbish either. Sounds like a crock to me. Not sure what you guys are playing at with all those guns, but Ive heard about those little towns in the States that dont have any clocks.

Wouldnt it be better if psychos didnt have access to guns?

I get the feeling that you guys like all those crazy heroics wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:The Office of Legal Counsel of the U.S. Department of Justice has just posted a 93-page written opinion that declares (and makes the case for) "we conclude that the Second Amendment secures an individual right to keep and bear arms."

The opinion was prepared at the request of outgoing Attorney General John Ashcroft and apparently delivered to him on 24 August 2004. It was posted on the USDOJ web site yesterday (16 December).

While I would rather see this come out as a Supreme Court opinion, this well-researched, documented and footnoted DOJ OLC opinion is a good start. It goes far beyond the letter that AG Ashcroft sent to U.S. Attorneys in May, 2001 indicating his belief and position that the Second Amendment affirms an individual right.

Here is the link for USDOJ Legal Opinions.

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/2004opinions.htm
br>
There are some like 1,000 accidental injuries by firearms each year, but 2.5 million incidents in which someone uses a gun in self defense to ward off an assailant. Wow.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html


In responce to Dom,

1. In this case, it was a viciouse cycle ending in LIFE, or have you even read my post?

2. Of course EVERYBODY in Iraq isn't happy with USA being there(Just like EVERYBODY does not like chocolate). At least now they can speak about not being happy (without getting took out and shot in the head) .. oh, and they can now ELECT their own government. And a significant portion of those wackos who are killing Iraqi troops and policemen, and women and children and USA soldiers... are from other contries (outside of Iraq) ! I wouldn't exactly call that a "civil war". More like an invasion. For the most part, Iraqis are trying to work together for peace.


3) Just posting a fellow Britton's view points. wink Just so everybody knows not all brittons are anti-freedom, pro-police state.

Stone, of course it matters if it is 100,000 or 2,000, That is like saying it doesn't matter if Hitler killed 2 people or 8,000,000 people.

I agree, it would be great if bad people did not have access to guns. It is unfortunate, that even in merry old england, where handguns are completely illegal, handguns are the leading firearm used by criminals. Gee, looks like all those laws work..... they are great at disarming law abiding citizens. help


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...ceansgreatlakes
br>
Looks like Bush is doing something to try and help the problems our oceans and the great lakes are having with pollution.

Good job Bush. Way to go man. It's another step in the right direction.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

It is unfortunate, that even in merry old england, where handguns are completely illegal, handguns are the leading firearm used by criminals.



That statement means nothing whatsoever.
It's like saying that knives are the criminals choice of edged weapon.
Or that bread is the public's choice of baked goods.

The point isn't that handguns are used more than any other firearm, since they're obviously going to be easier to get hold of.
What would be a more telling statistic is what the leading weapon used by criminals is. If it's a gun of any kind, that would prove that the laws don't do much.
However, here in blighty, guns are a involved in a small minority of crime, therefore the laws probably are working.

DJ Dantana, your comments end up annoying me so much with all the completely meaningless tripe that's in them that I end up having to put a post in myself, despite trying not to involve myself in this thread.
I'm going to have to stop reading this thread completely I think.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:dude, you obviously missed the point.

Pistols are totaly illegal in england, yet they are the most commonly used firearm in English gun crime. How are pistols easier to get ahold of than other guns? Law abiding citizens can still get shotguns (after jumping through a lot of hoops juggle , AND if the local police decide to allow it, AND you have a place to go shoot, AND you have references from lots of friends who also don't have criminal records.... AND if the police chief isn't having a bad day because his wife didn't give him any nookey) .

Yet sawed-off shotguns are the SECOND most used guns in english gun crime. Theoreticaly, sawed-off shotguns should be the most used firearm, since shotguns can be stolen from people who legaly own them, and sawed off at home, by a criminal. But PISTOLS are most commonly used by the criminal. Despite the fact that England is supposed to be "cleaned" of pistols. Please explain this descrepancy to me, huh? :rolleyes:

..I'm waiting....

Oh, sorry Stone, I forgot to answer your question, No I do not enjoy "heroics". When I was holdign that gun on ol' boy, I had to fight back tears a couple times (keep my emmotions under control) I was very very sad that he was about to make me kill him, and I did not enjoy it one bit.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Theoreticaly, sawed-off shotguns should be the most used firearm



Well, theoretically communism works.

Generally, in order to get a shotgun license, the police have to be damned sure you're suitable to have one and not a nutbar.
Also, you personally have to make damned sure that you've got somewhere secure to keep them where they can't be stolen easily before you can get a license.
Shotguns aren't as easy to steal as you might think.

I'd go so far as to say that pistols are used more often because they're easier to hide, even a shotgun with a sawn-off barrel doesn't fit easily into a trouser pocket.
Also a fair few pistols used in robberies are fake or airpistols. For some reason they're still dumped into the same category in a number of reports I've seen, skewing the numbers way out.

*shrugs* That's it for me in this thread, I really can't be bothered anymore.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

When I was holdign that gun on ol' boy, I had to fight back tears a couple times (keep my emmotions under control) I was very very sad that he was about to make me kill him, and I did not enjoy it one bit.


Should someone this emotional have a firearm in the first place? Imagine if someone this unstable were pointing a weapon at you, regardless of the circumstances... And then let's assume that everyone who legally has a gun is this sensitive and noble.

We're not counting all the desparate, careless, stupid or heartless gun owners, who will shoot you in the face as soon as look at you.

Starting to seem like no one should have that power in their hands? Neither side can handle it.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana


Looks like Bush is doing something to try and help the problems our oceans and the great lakes are having with pollution.

Good job Bush. Way to go man. It's another step in the right direction.



hey guys, just aside from this whole gun law discussion (which is apparently not really leading anywhere)

dantana, i took this from the site you gave a link to about our man bush implementing a policy on protecting the earths oceans and great lakes..

"provide advice on establishment or implementation of policies concerning ocean-related matters,"

sadly this is as close of a description one gets from that article concerning what the pres is really planning.. it seems that he is simply stating this as a plan without the funding or the detailed outline to back it up.. dont get me wrong, i am definitely for america leading the world in the battle against pollution and protecting the environment, but this does not convince me one bit.. the way i see it, the US govt, or better said, the bush admin is more out for money and power than for what is really in the best interest of the world.. as the only superpower these days (however maybe not for long biggrin.. Go China and the EU!!) i think the states has an obligation, and therefore bush too as head of that country, to initialize some of those procedures needed to be taken in order to straighten out the environment..

really, what exactly are "ocean-related matters"? are these the problems divers suffer when they come up to the surface too fast? or the currents that carry away the fertilised eggs of certain fish? can it be any more vague?? If bush and the US are so dedicated to help the worlds waterways and the rest of the environment, then why did they back out of the Kyoto Protocol?? as far as i know ( and being a biologist i know a bit about it) the largest problem we face today is not overfishing, its not oilspills, and its not toxic waste run-off being dumped into the great lakes.. its the gross emissions of CO2 and SO2 (i know we went through the whole statistics ordeal a month or so ago, and i dont intend to bring that up again). so one thing the US and the rest of the world needs to work on, including developing countries such as South Africa, Brazil and China is cutting down the emissions of those toxic gases..

phew.. man, that was exhausting..
and please dantana, ive asked you a few questions in the past and not gotten any response, but answer this one please.. do you really take this proposal the bush admin made seriously? and if so, why?


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:committee? how is forming a committee doing something? he formed a committee with the power to make suggestions. oooh.

one, i bet
1)he chose industry leaders to chair the committee, giving them not only another job with very little work and big retirment benefits, but another direct connection to lawmakers without the need for bothersome lobbyist middlemen

2) another way to put off what they already know so they can bleed the cash out, that 80% of the fish in the sea have been fished out, and we teeter on the brink of ecological collapse, and the third world fishermen are running out of food and being put out of a way to support their families, and the incresae in sunlight UV is killing off the phytoplankton which form the backbone of our O2 production in the seas and the backbone of the food chain. who needs a committee? ask any marine biologist andthey'll tell you.
Dantanta! on one hand you claim to not trust you gov't and to be such an independent thinker but on the other you take what they spew for truth without understanding the science!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: vanize

freedom of speech as also now apparently null and void, so even more reason for Americans to keep their guns - it may not be that long before we do have to fight the government.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...arts_monkeys_dc




hey vanize, looks like their attempts at censorship blew up their faces and turned around and bit them in the ass biggrin

the piece below was sent to me by email, sorry i don't have a link to back it up:

Written by:
A controversial portrait of President George W Bush, formed using monkey heads, has been projected on a giant billboard in Manhattan.

Chris Savido's acrylic painting, Bush Monkeys, prompted gallery managers to close down a 60-piece show at New York's Chelsea Market last week.

Anonymous donors subsequently paid for the picture to be posted over the entrance to Holland Tunnel for a month.
Some 400,000 drivers are expected to see the billboard each day.

The small painting appears to be a portrait of Mr Bush but on closer inspection is made up of monkey heads in marshes.
Managers of Chelsea Market have refused to be drawn on why the original exhibition was closed down but their decision has provoked accusations of censorship.

'Beautiful expression'
The organisers of the original exhibition, art publishers Animal Magazine, said it had been contacted by anonymous donors who wanted it to be seen by a larger audience.
"What has surprised everyone is that this image was considered controversial," Animal said in a statement.
"Bush Monkeys, by any measure, is an intelligent, civil and beautiful expression of the artist's frustrations with the current presidential administration. It is a wonderful example of responsible and effective political criticism."

The painting is now being sold on internet auction site eBay to raise money for a charity which donates money to parents of US soldiers who want to supply their children with body armour in Iraq.

The charity is close to 23-year-old Savido's heart as he says he has many friends serving in Iraq.

Money will also be raised for arts education in deprived areas.
Bidding has so far reached $4,000 (2,067).




My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:yeay!!!!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Bah. lisa and vanize didn't read my news thread ubbcrying

I am wounded...

Lol, lisa your link was to a yahoo news site... was anyone able to find that story on a mainstream US news site?

Maybe I just didn't see it, but I checked all the usuals, ABC, CNN etc, to no avail.


Getting to the other side smile

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:40 Reasons to Support Gun Control


Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops need guns.

Washington DC's low murder rate of 80.6 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Arlington, VA's high murder rate of 1.6 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994, are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.
An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).

The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns and Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for spinal paralysis, a computer programmer for Y2K problems, and Sarah Brady [or Sheena Duncan, Adele Kirsten, Peter Storey, etc.] for firearms expertise.

The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1791, refers to the National Guard, which was created by an act of Congress in 1903.

The National Guard, funded by the federal government, occupying property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by the federal government, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a state militia.

These phrases," right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration's herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people," all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state.

We don't need guns against an oppressive government, because the Constitution has internal safeguards, but we should ban and seize all guns, thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments to that Constitution.

Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense, which is why the army has millions of them.

Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they serve no military purpose, and private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles," because they are military weapons.

The ready availability of guns today, with waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, et cetera, is responsible for recent school shootings,compared to the lack of school shootings in the 40's, 50's and 60's, which resulted from the availability of guns at hardware stores, surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, mail order, et cetera.

The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, and the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.
Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

A self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

The right of online pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare hands.

The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

Charlton Heston as president of the NRA is a shill who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

Police officers, who qualify with their duty weapons once or twice a year, have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

"Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people, which is why the police need them but "civilians" do not.

When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

When Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands," they don't mean you. Really.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Beating a dead horse, Dantana. Let the gun control issue go. You will not change people's minds at this point.

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Written by:
by Dantana
A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet



THAT IS WITHOUT A DOUBT THE MOST REVOLTING THING I HAVE EVER READ ON HOP.

I am so disgusted. mad2 mad2 mad2 mad2 mad2 mad2 mad2


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:I think Dan was trying to be humorousI think Dan was trying to be humorous with a sarcastic listing recycled from an email sent around other gun fans. They apparently find such things funny and refer to it as "Patriotic Humor". You'll probably be needing a lobotomy to think it's funny or at all accurate.

Dan - the horse isn't just dead, it's mouldy old bones.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi DJ, I cant imagine the place you live, it seems surreal to me, but its times like this that I think we need lifesaver emoticon at Hop. I know Ive needed one a few times wink

Ever think about moving?


cheers

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:I can't imagine the place DJ Dan lives either, and I grew up in Texas, right next to Oklahoma, and been to Oklahoma plenty of times. He consistanly describes an America I have never stumbled across in my 33 years of living there.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:I don't trust the average American to own a firearm because the avergage American voted Bush in office a second time. Both are inherently dangerous.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Delete

Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm
br>
Sharp Drop in Gun Crime Follows Tough Australian Firearm Laws

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.....
also
...The Australian Bureau of Statistics counts all injury deaths, whether or not they are crime-related. The most recently available ABS figures show a total of 437 firearm-related deaths (homicide, suicide and unintentional) for 1997. This is the lowest number for 18 years.
The Australian rate of gun death per 100,000 population remains one-fifth that of the United States. ...

______________________

The initial premise on which the Neo-Conservatives were founded was that in order for the poplace to be easilly control. they must be kept in fear of the enemy within (gun carrying baddies, analogose to the bad guys in cowboy films and series - especially "Gunsmoke"
and the enemy outside, first communists and now muslims, I'm sure you can guess who I mean.

Anyone else think that Dantana is buying the Neo cons Lies, hook line and sinker.

Dan please, before you reply watch/read this.
Power of nightmare episode one and transcript on real media
http://207.44.245.159/video1037.htm


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