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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:A friend forwarded the following link on to me, and I thought I'd post it here for those of you who might not otherwise hear about it:

http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2004-11-03/news/feature.html


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:yes. point me at them....


R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

i've only ever had one run in with her, and i was a conversation on spherculism about ownership of moves. This thread went on fo SO long, and she was convinced that she'd made this move up and was 'letting' everyone else use it!




Sounds familiar.

Written by:

she seemed to want credit for having invented it, and from what she was saying i think she would have liked to copywrite it ir something...



I think this is what is at the back of many spinners minds regarding this: the possibility that one day, spinning moves, or even spinning generally, could be under copyright or patent.

It sounds unlikely even as I type, but more unpredictable things have happened - especially as this is business we're talking about here.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:pour ma rabbie: *point*

(about 5 posts up from the bottom i think).

smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:as far as the copyright issue goes, its more of a question of plagerism.

in the dance and juggling (including contact, or even especially contact) worlds, it is accepted that no-one owns a move or a step or a trick.

but once someone has put those moves together into a sequence then the routine itself plus the props/costume/stage they use to present it is open to plagerism.

these other two disciplines generally self-police when it comes to this issue.

if a show has been ripped off, most of the other performers in that field will find out about it one way or another.

and if it is accepted that a performer has commited plagery (not sure thats even a word but i like it smile) their reputation will very quickly hot rock bottom.

you can't own a move.

but there's nothing stopping you from claiming you discovered it or from someone else charging money to teach it or making maoney by using it in a performance.

fine line i know, but that's just the way it is i think.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Coleman has a point...

In Ballet, and belly dance, people copyright choreographies, but the individual moves that make the choreography are not copyrighted, and I'm not sure you can copyright individual moves.

Choreography is a different matter, because you are coming up with a series of moves and transitions...composing a choreography is not unlike composing a song, in a weird sense....just a different creative outlet.

I don't know the ins and outs of copyright law, and how it relates to dances, etc, but I do know that choreographies are copyrighted...my belly dance friends had to pay fees to use a choreography.

SF.....who's rambled again, and gotten mustard on her keyboard darnit...


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:Newbies! sorry but gg just sounds like another newbie to me. same story different person. i bet a thousand dollars she hasn't invented a new move. i think lots of people take getting an entry on COL to mean that they are world class. how many times do i have to say it, that competition is predominantly for amateurs! how could someone think they are the [censored] after less than 10 years? ignorance.

continuing... i have been interviewed several times by tv, magazine, and newspaper and i've never said any of that stuff. you have to be careful how you present yourself, i think the responses here will help her learn that. i think that it should be understood that gg is coming from a certain place spiritually, and we can't expect her to have the same ideals we do. i don't think she said anything BAD, but i don't think she said anything touching, either. she's expressing herself, and she wants to be rich. okay. maybe she hasn't been able to take it anywhere but the physical plane, she sounds like she has body insecurity issues, or maybe she hasn't learned to teach the spiritual side, or maybe she doesn't think the people she's targeting are ready to hear it... but they are. although part of my stomach is still turned at hearing things like wanting to copyright moves. dances, yes, moves, bah! that's insecurity and greed. but like i said in my teaching moves thread, commercialization is almost unavoidable, there's lots of different kinds of people in the world, and they all paint their own part in the picture. i've given away and taught for free thousands of moves that were probably way more interesting than most things gg is trying to hold and claim, but that's who i am and if she feels another way, so be it. proofreading this i should say though that i have no problems with her, i think though that she is hopefully learning a lot here! poi are very meditation and martial art oriented and i think teachers who understand that are people who i want to be my peers. not get rich quick schemers.
yes to olympics though. i see them as a forum to support truly dedicated athletes.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Posted:Written by: arashi
poi are very meditation and martial art oriented and i think teachers who understand that are people who i want to be my peers. not get rich quick schemers.


Plenty of commercialisation in meditation and martial arts too!


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:yes but they put their spiritual foot forward. this is like the poi version of the sugar hill gang, taking another culture's art form (hip hop) and commercialising it to cash in on a trend, and saying that you are doing it for the art. yes it furthers the art by increasing awareness, but at the end of the day it's about the individual person using it to get rich and how they evolve because of that. not many people respect the sugar hill gang unless they are ignorant of the real hip hop.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Arashi have you ever shopped for a dojo?

Unless your area of living is particulary nicer then mine, not many are putting any foot forward besides the prehensile monkey foot that collects money.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Martial arts have been westernised for longer than poi...
We have the opportunity to stop poi going in the same way (at least, we can try via these types of discussions - better than nothing).


Getting to the other side smile

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Well, most of that article disgusts me to my core... but moving on to more interesting things,

Copyright (as I was taught it): If i write a sentance on a piece of paper then i own the copyright of that sentance. If you write the same sentance then you own the copyright for that sentance also. After all it will be different in many ways, handwriting for one, grammar and spelling for another. However, if you look at my sentance and painstakingly copy it exactly as I have done then you are in breach of my copyright. With computer text it is a little different because there is no way to tell if you wrote it yourself of copied and pasted it. The trick with computer text ~ if you wanna guard your copyright ~ is to put a couple deliberate miistakes in it. That way you can always tell if it has been plagerised. Copyright is not to be confused with Patenting, which involves vast sums of money, lawyers, judges and years worth of fannying about. Although it is important to note that america has made a mockery of the international patent system for huge profit.

As for poi moves: The poi community is a very friendly, sharing one. I for one have given away all the little sectrets I had about poi for free. I knew that there would be people who would take what they had learned and sell that gift for a profit. Under most circumstances that is perfectly acceptable. However, if people start to get greedy, forget to give credit where it is due and don't offer anything in return then I believe they will get what is coming to them. They will cease to learn new things because those things will be kept from them and they shall lose what little respect they had. More importantly, they will become responsible for poiple the world over to stop sharing completely. If that happens, the artform will cease to develop further and everyone will lose out.


As for the article. I noticed that there is an 'article feedback' email address, perhaps your feedback concerning the article should be directed in that direction.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hey hey!!

Hi Matt, good to see you... now, away you go and fix Sphercul!!

biggrin

Always good to be reminded of Karma peace


Getting to the other side smile

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:there is no fix.

spherculism is dead, long live spherculism

check pip social forum for details

s


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:frown

But but but....

hmpf.

this thread is too depressing for words... I am backing out slowly


Getting to the other side smile

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Queen


newbie


Total posts: 1
Posted:Wow these are all great comments. I was sent this link and decided to check it out. I work for the paper the article was published in so there was some interest your comments. But my question is why don't you guys write the editor? Good or Bad your comments are of interest to us will only educate our readers further on the world of poi.

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Posted:Done! This is what I quickly sent off!
"Hi!
You might be interested in reading the # of posts this article has created on Home of Poi. www.homeofpoi.com
To many of us Glitter Girl is good at some things, but in no way overall near the apex of skill that is out there. But she does seem to be good at marketting!
Cheers!
Patrick"


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:wow, an assault from hop.

hope they dont publish it and put her out of business.

we may not like her style but im sorry, she doesnt deserve this.


Love is the law.

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Posted:How is that an assault?

I thought America was about free speech? Some of the comments have been supporting her here on HoP!
I for one think she's got every right to do what she's doing. But that's just my opinion!

Cheers!


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Posted:And this is what I received in response:

"Patrick,

Actually we have received several emails, all sending us a link to this site. I personally visited to read your comments and found them interesting. If your group would like to send us any information and comments (other then the link to your website) We will be more than happy to review and publish your feedback. However, we do not normally make changes based on opinions not clearly directed toward us from a message board.

Still, we do appreciate your interest in the story and topic and welcome your input.

Best Regards,

Andrea Goode
Editorial Coordinator
SFWeekly"


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:It wasnt really a dig at you Patrick, I honestly mean that.



There was a discussion earlier on about how the media will take anything and make a story about it. I would hate for hop to be misrepresented in anyway the might shine a negative light on it.



There were good words about hop in that article and the first ones their hearing back are negative



I could be over exagerating but if they did publish a follow up and - true to the media - happen to leave out the positive comments. It would probably damage her business.



I've been thinking about and it occured to me.



A corporate empire!!! In Poi!!!



No way, the only way it would work would be to turn poi into a fitness routine. Because the only reason that many people would do it would be to lose weight. Like Glitter Girl did....



I dont see the harm here. It would be exposing a whole new part of society to the twigs on the branch of the roots of a tradition.



I found my way to the martial arts that i love because people broke with tradtion along time ago in a different country on the other side of the world. I've been lucky enough to learn a tradition from the heart of chinese culture. I was lucky I guess, I saw my way past all the subscription classes and found something that suits my spirit.



The same would happen with poi.



Seeing Tai Bo didnt even occur to me when i saw live Mui Thai (sp?). It was incredible.



Alot of traditions are being led into the west by business, no one can deny this anymore. The people that like it, see it and seek it out.



Poi is young in the western world but it has strong roots. Strong enough to weather this.



So I say live and let live.



I'm not attacking anyone, I posted in this thread earlier and meant what i said. it wasnt very overt but you can read between the lines.


Love is the law.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Emmm, Aidan, I thought you would have known better than to support such a sweeping generalisation of the media.



edit:

Ok, now I'm home from work I logged on to back this up...



"I could be over exagerating but if they did publish a follow up and - true to the media - happen to leave out the positive comments. "



What?! I'm not saying that many media reports aren't warped, they are, but Queen (see above) has given HoP the opportunity to reply... I think that means someone can respond directly to the article - you don't know how that individual media source will interpret that reply until you actually do it.



Let's not get too paranoid here wink



And btw, not all media 'leave out the positive comments'.



If you really think this and it wasn't just a throwaway comment, maybe you should PM me



rolleyes



hug



PS: also, this isn't 'an assault' on GG (this was dealt with in a previous post). This is people voicing their perfectly valid fears and concerns over the future direction of an art form that we all hold very dear.

EDITED_BY: Firepoise (1100217580)


Getting to the other side smile

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:uh we may have an opportunity to prevent the happy mealization of poi, so it doesn't turn into martial arts yoga meditation tango sport shooting basket weaving pottery and or ballroom danceing.

But I should point out that some guy fought bruce lee for like 5ve bitter, cinematic minutes (atleast as exagerated and missrepresented by popular media)

I really doubt (and dearly hope not) that someone will engage glitergirl in a 5 minute poi duel to decide rather or not she should continue with her efforts.


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:I really don't think that people should worry so much about the commercialisation of poi.

If you think that international businesses and marketing will kill an 'alternative' activity like poi then you're blind to what's happening in the world. 'Hippy' culture (including poi) is 'Made in Taiwan' using cheap labour, sealed in polluting plastic and sold cheap on market stalls and high streets across the globe. But true free spirits (aka hipppies) still exist.

In other commercialised activites like yoga, judo, music, skating, etc... the independent spirit still burns strong and the mass marketing only helps pull more people to what they enjoy and what makes them grow. If it's only a small proportion that 'truly' gains from it, then it's still more than worth it.

You can own Van trainers, wear baggy trousers, $40 wheels on $40 trucks, bolted onto a $100 deck - but there'll always be a kid with a $20 setup loving skating.

You can have a Temple of Poi franchise in every city; Glitter Girl will be spinning poi in a size 8 mini skirt with Britney; but there will always me spinning my home made poi on the beach teaching anyone who wants to learn in exchange for a cool drink.

If you really think that you'd stop spinning poi, or get less out of it, if it was popular and everyone else was doing it then I've got news for you: you're shallow. You need to reevaluate why you do things. Spin because you love it, regardless of it the person next to you knows nothing about it or is 10 times better than you.


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:ditto

When I grow up I want to be wise like Dom smile

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I might be shallow but ill never stop spinning poi (well, I do stop frequently as im not constantly spinning poi but you get the idea)

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Written by:
You can have a Temple of Poi franchise in every city; Glitter Girl will be spinning poi in a size 8 mini skirt with Britney; but there will always me spinning my home made poi on the beach teaching anyone who wants to learn in exchange for a cool drink.




A cool drink? eek Would a slightly warm one do?
Wise words as usual wink


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Posted:Wonder what size skirt Dom will be wearing?

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arsn


arsn

How do you change this thing???
Location: Behind the couch...

Total posts: 1903
Posted:Written by:
Originally posted by Dom
You can own Van trainers, wear baggy trousers, $40 wheels on $40 trucks, bolted onto a $100 deck - but there'll always be a kid with a $20 setup loving skating.



clap
Here... take my hat... I take it off for you...


I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Written by: Dom


I really don't think that people should worry so much about the commercialisation of poi.



If you really think that you'd stop spinning poi, or get less out of it, if it was popular and everyone else was doing it then I've got news for you: you're shallow. You need to reevaluate why you do things. Spin because you love it, regardless of it the person next to you knows nothing about it or is 10 times better than you.





ubblove ubblove ubblove



clap clap clap



Well said Dom.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:ditto

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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