Page: ...
bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
negative space is a juggling concept which coleman will kindly explain for me.



and this morning i realised i've been plaing with it loads and loads and loads with poi over the last year or so.



dom's been dipping his toes in the water too......





proper discussion when cole does his part of this job.



smiles

R

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1100181048)

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


mo-sephenthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK


Posted:
Nice one for the reminder about the detours crew; just watched all their new clips and then bought their dvd biggrin

monkeys ate my brain


MikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
Most coincidental thing just happened. Just got done watching my dance vids (including the Midas one) which I havent watched in months and came here to see Glass refering to it.

Sorry for off topicness, you may resume smile

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Written by: arashi


you guys are gonna crap yourselves when you see my routine.




I'll crap myself IF I get to see your routine.

You're mind is writing checks your digital camera and bandwith can't cash. Wake me when the vid's uploaded. wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
hmm.
going to ignore a lot of the inversion talks cause i would have to make an effort to understand them.

to be honest most of the negative space effects i've been plaing with are created by the poi and me, not just me.

so all this buzzsaw stuff is also not what i am going to talk about.


*slaps arashi*
just cause we didn't have a name for it doesn't mean we weren't doing it.

but whenwhenwhenwhenwhen do we get a vid-yo? i'm with the others here....

right then nix.

look back at my last post for some applications.
but *dons beret*
i em tryeeng to make ze understanding of ze concept bettair, tryeeng to mek all ze sings you 'ave bee doing fit into a fameely, so zey you can explore ze leemeets of ze fameely.

put bluntly, just knowing this concept made me learn five new things yesterday:

armbuzzsaw around the poi, both sides(will have to show, its wierd)
an extension to the contorsionist foot grab i learnt in graz
three variants o the throw you mentioned(which incidentally uses negative space twice, once where it passes between the legs, once in the gap)

now f*ck off and work on it you lazy scot wink hug

but it's the mindgame variations that leave me boggled. elasta where are you?

love Rob

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: NYC


You're mind is writing checks your digital camera and bandwith can't cash. Wake me when the vid's uploaded. wink




tis true man - i've been waiting for even just a small clip of that cat since i met him here...

i remember talk of something about online tutorials and maybe even an 'online spin jam' back in the day.

but then again, i've never edited and uploaded any of the footage i have sitting at home so i can't say sh!t really.

northern ad did a lovely 1 ball trick last night that was a pendulum kick from behind to in front through negative space (hand on hip) catching back on the same foot.
he ain't stefan or philip but he'll get there one day i'm sure smile

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
Written by: NYC


Written by: arashi


you guys are gonna crap yourselves when you see my routine.




I'll crap myself IF I get to see your routine.

You're mind is writing checks your digital camera and bandwith can't cash. Wake me when the vid's uploaded. wink




how 'bout you just come to burning flipside next year and just see it with your own eyes?

hmm..., how about that mister "I'm so superior because I live in a blue state even though I've never made it out to burningman"

tongue

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
If I actually thought that there was a chance of hanging out with cool firespinners the whole time rather than dodging naked granola chicks on E, I'd think about it.

I'll be in Scotland during Burningman if anybody needs me.

tongue

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
actually, there is a high probablity of finding your desired fire spinner to granola chick ratio at Flipside. Arashi, Sage, Baru, spritie, spitfire, me, and literally scores (a hundred?) of others would be within a couple hundred yards of your present location for 5 days if you did go



now back to your regularly schedualed thread...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
so let me see if im getting my head around this.

forgive the simplicity of my examples.

So, if you stand with one leg a foot forward and one leg a foot back and do a buzzsaw in between your legs. This is using a negative space to contain a pattern.... ?

Say i stand on one leg, lift the other and put the tip of my toe on my other knee. Now I put my staff through the eyehole created and do, say, a simple one beat pattern with no crossing over. One handed or two off center. Isolating the center of the staff in the space. This is using a negative space to constrain a pattern.... ?

glass, nice vid, got any more pieces of eight?

blue and all the rest. yowzaaaa, this is crazy cool stuff.

Love is the law.


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
I still say it is framing and not negative space, but I know no one is ever going to listen to me, so whatever...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
i wont argue.

it looks cool

is it framing?

Love is the law.


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
Oh yeh and NYC:

offtopic

tongue

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
well, framing is what I would call it, but apparently neative space is what it is somewhat erroneously called by contact jugglers and so now we are stuck with the misnomer too...

wink

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


RowynSILVER Member
member
43 posts
Location: Boucherville, QUébec, Canada


Posted:
where's the best place to wrap the poi. I like to wrap it on my wrist cause that way i can do any direction, but someone told me that shoulders are the best. i dont really like wraping my legs cause its loses speed, plus im not real sure of what to transfer it too. pease tell me all about wrap
tanx

what ever happen, pain willl not be the end.


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
the best place to wrap is wherever is convient at the time or for the move. if you do it right, you won't lose any speed off any of them. you can even come out of a wrap faster than you went in.



somewhere there is a " [Old link] " - though "difinitive" is optimistic in this case, but it is certainly extensive.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
*ducks*

*erm quack*

*flys away instead*

Right so i'll call it negative space for the sake of siding with everyone else against you.

Still, I didnt really understand a word of the poi moves the cat explained above so im not one to argue about it.

So in a negative space.... the object is the frame.... ??? and if you put something inside of it... you framing/containing something in a negative space.

sorry if im sounding dumb. sometimes i like to be spoon fed fundamentals

Love is the law.


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
I think that is what they are trying to say - or the negative space is the space that is framed, though in strict terms this is a positive space rolleyes

but if you make a frame to enclose a positive space, then call the frame the object, then subtract the object, then you in fact get a negative space remaining instead of a positive space being framed. presumably either way the poi will be in this space, be it positive or negative.

if we were talking real negative space, then the poi would be the object, and everything else in the entire universe that is remaining once the poi are subtracted would be the negative space.

and this is why I am objecting to using the term negative space, because it refers to another concept which it really doesn't have much to do with and thereby creates confusion.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


spiralxveteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
But seeing as how nobody but you has any idea what you're talking about, there is no confusion! biggrin

"Moo," said the happy cow.


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
the idea is that you define a concept of 'positive space' as space that is already used by an object and 'negative space' as space that is not being used by an object.

how do you subtract poi from the universe anyway?
doesn't your definition get really complicated when you consider that the objects we are looking at are moving constantly - i.e. does your negative space definition include the space where the poi were half a second ago...?

the term has been around for ages, its just it was invented by artists rather than scientists so the scientists get pissed off that they didn't think of it first and thus missed out on defining it as something logical wink

ado-p - your examples are perfect.
i really like the staff idea smile

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
Correct!

smile

mo-sephenthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK


Posted:
EDITed to say that this is in response to vanize's post, and coleman's too bloody quick on the keyboard again... biggrin



Hmmm, I agree with you that people are using the term negative space differently here to the rest of the world wink, (and I think missing out on a lot of what it has to offer as a concept as a result).



I'm not sure about "make a frame to enclose a positive space". I think that (without the poi for a minute) if you put your hand on your hip, then the gap which is left is negative space - that seems quite clear cut; you are the object, so anything that isn't you is negative space.



Not quite sure what you mean by positive space.



I think it's unclear as to exactly what the object is. It sounds like you want the poi to be the object, and the body of the performer not to be, which I can't really agree with.



What makes sense to me is that the body is the object, and the toys are then allowed to explore the space around the object - much as viewers would investigate the negative space around a sculpture, or inside a building. But that's only one possible view, and other views bring other insights. :cheesyaphorismgraemlin: And I'm very open to being persuaded that I'm wrong on this one, it's an area I'm feeling my way round at the moment.



biggrin
EDITED_BY: mo-seph (1100105844)

monkeys ate my brain


RevBRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA


Posted:
Written by: Rowyn



where's the best place to wrap the poi. I like to wrap it on my wrist cause that way i can do any direction, but someone told me that shoulders are the best. i dont really like wraping my legs cause its loses speed, plus im not real sure of what to transfer it too. pease tell me all about wrap

tanx






am I the only one to notice that this is completely off topic and belongs in another thread... I mean I appreciate van. answering it.. but it just seemed to me like going down a hall: door, door, door, door, big hairy monster, nair, door, door, door..





LOL



but on topic.. and still referencing van... I think it really depends on what you define space.. I can kinda see where this helps us to 'see' things a bit different.. but I mean. some of us were already looking in that direction methinks with various patterns, inversions, and insides, that we already spun.. but I await to be corrected... I think what really helps, is the notions of spinning through a hole, or in some cases near hole, but trying to focus mainly on spinnign through a hole.. I agree with you that framing is a proper response, since negative space is everything outside the body (or depending body and poi-chain) since the poi (or poi-head specifically) is what we are trying to move through the framed space.. the framed space is negative space though.. just a specific type of negative space.. so in sum I think we're all right.. wink yes we're spinning in negative space.. but we seem to be focusing on framed negative space..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
I'll be defining "Negative space" as a 3 beat weave.

And I'll be callling what I previously called a 3 beat weave "sparkly poi" from now on.

I hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


simian110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London


Posted:
Written by: vanize

it refers to another concept which it really doesn't have much to do with and thereby creates confusion.




clap

but when has that ever stopped the poi community in its naming practices before, eh? rolleyes



ANYWAY



All this discussion is with regards to fully bounded 2d cross-sections of 3d objects, yes?



but, i was thinking that this is pretty unnecessary in terms of the concept we're playing with - negative spaces which are produced by an observer.



basically, you don't need things to touch together in 3d space to present a 2d negative space shape to an observer.



for example - much of the negative space in this pic is created by 3d objects that are not in contact with each other



now where's my beret..?

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


arashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
by the way blue that comment i made about sucking less was a JOKE. a very funny one i might add.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


simian110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London


Posted:
you should have mentioned badgers. people know you're joking when you mention badgers.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
i know, arashi wink

but until you make it clear (with smileys)i'm going to pretend i didn't tongue



*bows to the non-sucky one over the water*



sorry i have no more to post on this today, i spent all my time at cicus yesterday staring at women and throwing clubs in the air(yes! yesyesyes! over 20 catches of 5c! 6 rounds of 4c 534!)



incidentally, i'm going to stand by the naming of it. there are a million and one precedents where when a term moves from one field to the next it takes on a slightly different meaning. and this one is pretty clear to all those who have no in-depth knowledge of the original meaning of negative space, and is also following a precedent in two other object maniulation styles...



smiles

R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


ChuckSnewbie
24 posts

Posted:
I just realised I have a great negative space move. It's a continuous inside/outside butterfly hyperloop, i.e. down on the outside, up on the inside. Thus both my poi heads travel through the 'negative space' created by my arms and the poi strings in one direction at the same time.

colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
i agree with what rev said.
and mo-seph.
and blue.

i have love for the monkey but if ya don't have anything positive to say, you're gonna have to zip-it tongue wink hug

i think the definition of what negative space is in general is not important here - what is important to this application is how to create and present negative spaces to observers.

as we have stated, the best way to do this is to frame the space.

your example picture only presents those negative spaces from one particular angle, i.e. for one particular observer.

a hand on a hip with an object passed through the gap is an effective creation of a negative space for just about any observer from any angle.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


simian110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London


Posted:
Written by: coleman

if ya don't have anything positive to say, you're gonna have to zip-it




confused

i think you're misreading me, cole

what i was trying to say was that there are an enormous number of ways to completely frame things (ie. place them within neg space) that don't involve fully bounding a 3d space in the manner you're discussing.

it wasn't meant as disagreement with the name (that was the first bit of my post wink )
it was meant to be trying to open the concept up a bit more, making it more relevant to what it is called.

Written by: cole

a hand on a hip with an object passed through the gap is an effective creation of a negative space for just about any observer from any angle.



hmm, but it's a different negative space for all of them
i thought the idea was not to just make a neg space, but an aesthetically pleasing one? in which case the observers position is important anyway.

PS. i reread the beginning of the thread. Sorry, didn't mean to suggest that you and rob yourselves were 'wanky jugglers'. Merely that the use of an academic phrase to describe a 'making a hole' will detract from investigating the moves themselves and attract 'wanky' people who sit around chatting crap instead... *sudden moment of self realisation* redface

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


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