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ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
I have been thinking about this for a while..
My breathing has been a little laboured and I have had some horrible coughing recently after spinning...
Now we used to use Kero, but we decided to stop and have only been using firesol as fuel for quite some time. I have been thinking that the coughing is coming directly from the fumes, because the next day I am waking up feeling dodgey (heavy chest, black boogies.... eewwwww)
I wonder what the long term consequences of spinning might be? I love to spin, but to me using Glow just isnt the same as having the flame whirling around your head...
Plus people who dont spin get into our car and go "wow! smell that fuel!"
Arsn and I look at each othr surprised, because we just dont smell it at all anymore. eek frown
I dont firebreathe and I dont spin everyday, so I am a bit concerned about what this is doing to us.... frown
any ideas?

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
well, it's doing bad things to you. That much im certain of in my non-medically-educated opinion. I suggest if the kero wasn't causeing these problems and firesol (whatever firesol is) does, stop using the firesol.

ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
Firesol/water is one of the safest fuels that you can get in Australia.

Its way better than the kero.

It burns very cleanly, has hardly any fumes and leaves no soot! hooray...

I wonder if its the kero from previous times...I may already be damaged. Or maybe the kero around the group that are burning at the same time.
EDITED_BY: Valura (1099860297)

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
if it's so safe/clean why do you now have these breathing problems whenever you spin it? And you didn't with kero?

Lillie Frognot a stranger
558 posts
Location: wales


Posted:
If you didn't for kero and you do for firesol, it might be that you are allergic, or sensitive to fire sol.

Recently I have started having all sorts of strange allergies. The main symptoms are rashes and shortness of breath.

I suppose it's possible, and maybe worth considering.

Eat when you're hungry
Sleep where it's dry
No one is ever what they seem
Gabriel King - The Wild Road


KnoxiousGOLD Member
.
420 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
I reckon it's the kero...after using KSol for ages when I went ot Burliegh and had to psin with all that kero it made me nauseous (sp?)...and yes your car does smell quite nasty tongue

TheBovrilMonkeySILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England


Posted:
Written by: Knoxious


..and yes your car does smell quite nasty




I reckon that's got nothing to do with the fuel and lots to do with Arsn's feet tongue smile

In the interests of science, how about going spinning off on your own somewhere, away from people using kero, and see what happens the next morning. At least that'll see if the firesol is doing anything really nasty.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
*falls over laughing at bovril!*

I think its the kero too. Seriously.
Knoxious the car is slightly better now.. I actually spilt Kero in the boot about a year ago and even though we have scrubbed the boot its still stinky... apparently. *pokes out tounge*

Astar I DID with Kero. Thats when I first noticed it.
I think that my first post is a little misleading... I did get this with kero (the black boogies and stuff like that) so then we moved to firesol. Now its progressivly getting worse.. I may try bovvies Idea.

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


MedusaSILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia


Posted:
I was told by my doctor to give up fire twirling becuaes of the damage the smoke was doing to my lungs (that was about a year ago and yet I am still doing it tsk tsk tsk).

The smoke you are inhaling is just as dangerous as cigarette smoke (first or second hand).

I have no doubt that if I died today and they did an autopsy on me my lungs would be a putrid black colour.

Also the fact that the fuels that we use can be highly carcinogenic that would mean the smoke would be too (just like in the case with cigarettes).

I don't really have any suggestions on how to change that effect you seem to be having...sorry.

BurningByronmember
340 posts
Location: Australia


Posted:
I have never felt "right" about the following...

1. The excess unburnt fuel that is is inhaled during burn offs / during a performance.
2. The large amount of smoke from a carciogenic organic liquid being inhaled.
3. I used to wonder why I would get tired alot quicker when I spun with fire, then it occured to me... the flames burn a large amount of the oxygen around your body (especially with very large wicked doubles, in no wind and with lots of speed) also producing a large amount of CO/CO2. This results in very hot air with low oxygen levels and much higher CO and CO2 levels being taken into the lungs. Overall not very healthy for the lungs or your general well being.

As I recently mentioned in another thread...
Be aware of the possible combined effects of exposing your lungs to multiple carciogenic / irritants / dodgy chemicals. A recorded example of this is asbestos and smoking, the lung cancer incidence in the group that is exposed to both varibiables had something like 90 times the incidence in the smoking only or asbestos only groups. I would love to write more but funnily enough I must go study for my respiratory and CVS exam tommorow!!!

I'll write more in a couple of days.

HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.


LooperGOLD Member
grasshopper in training
124 posts
Location: Australia


Posted:
I also worry about this alot. I consiously avoid cigerette smoke and smoky places, however light up when ever i can afford fuel. Burns/burnt hair don't really worry me however long term effects of twirling do. Sooo... thinking of incorperating a mouth cover into my costume. Like a black ski mask with decorations around the eyes/ ears and a hole to push my hair through. Do you think this would help? ie. would it reduse the amount of harmful fumes being inhaled enough to justify the lack of oxygen i will get while twirling (therefore the time i can spin before a break). Also what sort of material would be best? Wool would be to hot (+ flamable), so i guess it is down to cotten, even though it doesn't really have the elastisity to make a proper head mask. Anyones opinion would be great as i don't know much about materials or the breathing thing.
Thanks hug

There is a world made of air, one of earth and one of water.
And there is one made of fire, and all of them fight for supremacy. They are fighting now, in my head.


Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
Written by: BurningByron



I have never felt "right" about the following...



1. The excess unburnt fuel that is is inhaled during burn offs / during a performance.

2. The large amount of smoke from a carciogenic organic liquid being inhaled.

3. I used to wonder why I would get tired alot quicker when I spun with fire, then it occured to me... the flames burn a large amount of the oxygen around your body (especially with very large wicked doubles, in no wind and with lots of speed) also producing a large amount of CO/CO2. This results in very hot air with low oxygen levels and much higher CO and CO2 levels being taken into the lungs. Overall not very healthy for the lungs or your general well being.



As I recently mentioned in another thread...

Be aware of the possible combined effects of exposing your lungs to multiple carciogenic / irritants / dodgy chemicals. A recorded example of this is asbestos and smoking, the lung cancer incidence in the group that is exposed to both varibiables had something like 90 times the incidence in the smoking only or asbestos only groups. I would love to write more but funnily enough I must go study for my respiratory and CVS exam tommorow!!!



I'll write more in a couple of days.






I think perhaps the largest concern is the particulate matter which contains heavy metals and soot. the worst case scenario of lung cancer and or emphezema is not entirely likely, in a statistical sense. But reduced general health from stuffed up lungs full of crap and heavy metals in the bloodstream is generally crappy and much more likely to plague you then a horrible disease aslong as you continue to spin fire on a regular basis.



I used to work at a christmas tree shipping/receiving yard, one of my duties was bailing the christmas tree's using a gas powered bailing machine, the stupid company was to lazy to keep these engines tuned and maintained and they wouldn't even put proper exhaust systems on them (or any exhaust system really, it was just spewing crap out of the manifold)



On days when it wasn't particulary windy I could hardly move after working all day. and even when I went back to work and was doing another task well away from the fumes, it was very easy to notice the effect of the crap I had been breathing for atleast a couple of days. I can come out of a drinking binge and have better overall health the next couple of days then I can cope with breathing a lot of crap, and I seem to have fairly good aerobic health (or I did at the time of the previously mentioned work experiences anyways)



I guess overall, consider a session of fire spinning comparable to drinking large amounts of poison. Much like drinking poison, it may or may not cause chronic illness sometime in the future. but it certainly will damage your body in the short term. Once you realize this, then you can make a proper decision rather or not you like to spin fire (I like to spin fire smile )
EDITED_BY: Astar (1099878928)

Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
Written by: Looper


I also worry about this alot. I consiously avoid cigerette smoke and smoky places, however light up when ever i can afford fuel. Burns/burnt hair don't really worry me however long term effects of twirling do. Sooo... thinking of incorperating a mouth cover into my costume. Like a black ski mask with decorations around the eyes/ ears and a hole to push my hair through. Do you think this would help? ie. would it reduse the amount of harmful fumes being inhaled enough to justify the lack of oxygen i will get while twirling (therefore the time i can spin before a break). Also what sort of material would be best? Wool would be to hot (+ flamable), so i guess it is down to cotten, even though it doesn't really have the elastisity to make a proper head mask. Anyones opinion would be great as i don't know much about materials or the breathing thing.
Thanks hug




I suggest you find a funky bicycleing mouth filter thingy, their are many to choose from, rangeing from outrageously geeky to funky.

BurningByronmember
340 posts
Location: Australia


Posted:
""""think perhaps the largest concern is the particulate matter which contains heavy metals and soot. the worst case scenario of lung cancer and or emphezema is not entirely likely, in a statistical sense. """"

I am not aware of any research that has been done in our area... I havent ever seen any statistics being released about "the long/short term effects of inhalation of kerosine vapour/smoke during aerobic exercise". In a "statistical sense" there is a high likelyhood that we are decreasing our general health, increasing our chances of developing cancer and increasing our chances of developing lung disease BECAUSE there is a proven link between poor respiratory health and the inhalation of toxic vapours/fumes/smoke AND there is a proven link between the inhalation of carciogenic chemicals and cancer.

Back to my study again....

HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.


margitaSILVER Member
.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
3,777 posts
Location: brizvegas, Australia


Posted:
well, kero is just evil!! devil ubblol



i started off with kero...but it was frigging hot & gave off a whole lotta smoke which was very yuck! and this one time at band camp...no wait, i mean! wink one time when i was spinning i managed to swing the burning poi into my eye. let me tell you, an eyeful of hot kero DOES NOT TICKLE!! ubblol i stopped using kero after that, and like valura, switched to firesol. i've found it lots cooler & cleaner...but a bit more expensive! ah well...i like it better! biggrin



so there's my monday mindless rambling that probably makes no sense... ubblol







*wanders off to see what lemming is doing to the blindfolded valura*



wink

do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!



if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!



smile! :grin: it confuses people!


Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
do you or do you not agree most people here won't die of cancer or emphezema or another chronic lung disease?

Is this not true? Most smokers don't die from cancer, most people exposed to asbestos also do not die, Most people I know who worked at said tree yard for their whole lives and will probably continue to do so untill the damn place goes tits and is repositioned in wisconsin. will also not die from lung cancer.

Is it not true that most people are infact suffering short term poor health when they are exposed to toxins and crap that plugs up their lungs and irritates them?

Or do you have evidence to show that I am wrong and we will all die, but can't find any studies to show that we are not suffering ill effects of crap being inhaled whenever we inhale crap?

That is all im saying. Im more concerned about things that are likely to happen to me, and still but not as much concerned about things that aren't. Otherwise I would never ride in a car, a much riskier thing to do according to countless studies then any activity discussed in this thread (aside from perhaps fire breathing)

nor would or will I ever be a hermit, who lives in a bunker with stockpiled supplies and weapons, hideing from the comeing apocalpyse.

Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
ps-you can continue to view everything as a result of studies you read in journals, websites, text books and magazines. ill continue to ignore most of what studies prove through the science of statistical gathering.

MedusaSILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia


Posted:
I do not agree with the asbestos one I am afraid to say.

My dad grew up in a town with asbestos in the playground now the kids around his age are all dead barr one other besides himself.

All died from asbestos related diseases!

Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
and most people currently over the age of 50 have been exposed to asbestos floating around in the air in various public buildings.

why aren't they all dead?

MedusaSILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia


Posted:
Most of them are if they grew up in asbestos towns and had to live with it constantly.

My grandfather late last year was one of the most recent to die from mesothelioma from Whittenoom....my uncle has asbestosis.

From the people that my family have kept in contact with there are very few people still alive from that god forsaken place.

If you are talking a once of thing with inhaling asbestos fibres then yes I agree with you but in this thread we are talking about a constant use of certain substances or fumes...

Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
ok I concede and go to bed.

bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
hey valura...

rmemeber i was off spinning for a while for the same reason? i stopped fire for 6 months(bar two burns, both of which made me ill) and now am much better. still feel a little weak after a show, or sth where i hacve to be around fire for longer than bout 20 mins, but i recommend not burning and getting out those glowtoys for the next little wjhile.

you'll feel better.

love
R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


SkulduggeryGOLD Member
Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
8,428 posts
Location: Wales


Posted:
Looks like its time to make Gas masks fashionable again Valura.

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!


becBRONZE Member
member
521 posts
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Posted:
this is a big concern for me too.. having been playing with fire for about 8yrs, including gigging several times a week over the last couple of years, I definitely feel the effects on my body.. we *are* damaging ourselves doing this.. each of us just have to weigh up whether it is worth it for ourselves..

but the main reason for posting is that I'd like to suggest that I don't necessarily think firesol is much healthier. I always use it - haven't touched kero in years.. but the fact that it is odourless, tasteless etc doesn't make it much better for you.. In fact, it concerns me that I can't smell it.. and therefore probably breathe in loads more fumes because it doesn't turn my nose so much..

As blue suggested, it might be worth giving your body a rest from it for a period of time just to de-tox a bit? (*with the exception of Woodford where you simply *must* come play of course!?!)
If I take even a full week off I notice the difference...

CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
I'm intrigued by this "Firesol" product, which I'm guessing is similar to (or exactly the same as) Solvent 3440 Special that I use in NZ.

If it is the same stuff, which has a lot less smoke, looks clear and has a barely noticable smell, it's actually a little bit MORE toxic than Kero, but not by any major degree.

Could someone post up a link to the MSDS sheet for this product, as i thought 3440 was much better than kero as you couldn't smell it as much, it seemed 'pure' (which I know know is rubbish) and there was less smoke.


Be aware that just beacuase we can't see it or smell it, doesn't mean its better for us than something else.

Carbon monoxide is a good example of this...an invisible odourless gas that kills hundreds of people worldwide and makes thousands more seriously ill over time...

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margitaSILVER Member
.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
3,777 posts
Location: brizvegas, Australia


Posted:
*runs away to the gooble site, finds info & runs back*

i think you're right charles, it would appear that it is solvent 3440 - only they call it pegasol 3440. or something. umm

i checked out the gooble warming site, and this is what i found. the msds sheet is really really blurred and hard to read though...

i'll go & try to find another one!! biggrin

do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!



if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!



smile! :grin: it confuses people!


becBRONZE Member
member
521 posts
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Posted:
as far as I'm aware most of the Aussie retailers who sell fireSol/firewater etc are reselling variants on the pegaSol/ShellSol/solvent 3440 fuels.. just different brands of the same thing (as far as the MSDS show)...
they are marketed as "cleaner" / healthier etc.. but I really don't think they are... they just don't smell so bad.

Astarmember
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.


Posted:
so they are like our "odourless smokeless kerosene" which seems to produce greater "kerosene hang over" effects when I use it for fire breathing.



one thing I like about canada, is how "kerosene" is almost never called anything other then "kerosene" or "lamp oil" although sometimes you see "paraffin"



If you want to avoid horrible sickness, in response to "kerosene" while still breathing fire, and a mask doesn't work. Try to find some "av gas" or "kerosene" or "turbine fuel" which doesn't have a great deal of additives in it.



also slightly related my dad is a marine diesal mechanic (or was and is still qualified as one) and he developed a terrible allergy to diesal fuel. But it only happens when he handles diesal fuel, or "odourless colourless lamp oil" which he used a few times to either kick start our oil furnace (which uses furnace oil AKA diesal oil without as many additives and blue or green pigment added to try to stop people from using it to power their car since it's tax free) or once he used it to kick start our diesal volkswagon (which was a piece of crap which my parents sold at a significant loss just to unload it's hassle). the interesting thing is. Furnace oil doesn't cause him to have a rash, but diesal fuel and "smokeless odourless lamp oil" does. Also, one I know he cleaned a bunch of paint brushes with some of my more or less 'pure' kerosene and didn't develop a rash.



So, what is the moral of my rant? You can't add chemicals to a chemical to make it healthier. Please, realize that in every instance I have ever read, heard, or saw personally the more sophisticated kerosene is, the more harmful it appears to be. since everything I ranted about is basicly kerosene in one form or another (although I don't think using furnace oil for fire spinning fuel is probably a good idea, at the very least it is probably a lot messier and burns with less complete combustion)
EDITED_BY: Astar (1100055430)

nativeSILVER Member
sleeping with angels
508 posts
Location: anaheim CA usa


Posted:
it breaks my heart to say this frown but you should take a break for about a month or to for your body to heal frown

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha


jc_firetricksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
205 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
I don't want to die frown

GothFrogetteBRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
Here in the UK we have the odourless Paraffin and the regular stuff, if I spin with the regular stuff and if inhale the smoke grunted I will wake up in the morning with ulcers on my tongue. I don't get that with the 'cleaner' paraffin and its only about 50p more. only trouble is its harder to get.
I think a gas mask would work well and can be incorporated into costumes well other than that I think its going to have to be glow or try and cut down on the amount of times you spin fire.
valura
hug hug hug hug hug

Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows


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