Forums > Social Chat > Truth and Lies

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Without getting too philosophical (yeah, right!), I don't entirely buy the 'objective truth' thing. As I see it, to some extent at least, we each create the world we inhabit. So your truth may not, in some cases, be the same as mine.

If you're prepared to buy that idea, then my next step is to say, if you're going to create the world you inhabit, better to make it a nice place. In which case, I'd rather live in a world with Santa Claus, a world where everyone's a friend I haven't met yet, with lives full of interesting adventures. Where good will and hard work is rewarded.

A risky strategy maybe, but I'd rather live in a warm, friendly fictitious world than a cold, harsh fictitious world.

This is my truth - tell me yours.

mikeyB

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Hi Ms Cassandra
In my opinion there's a clear difference between a white lie and a er..black(?)one. If you are just spinning a little yarn to cheer someone up or if you end up giving that persons or people a positive feeling ie. enthusiasm or joy, then what is the problem? BUT if the 'story' will lead to larger lies or a total load of bunkum coming out of the liar then this, to me is wrong.
Taking Santa claus as an example, children just end up knowing he does really exist (sorry for all those who didn't know, it's your parents! I'm sure an online counselling service will be happy to talk to you) this does not really cause any damage in the long run.
But on another note lying to someone to attain benefits for yourself REALLY jerks my gerkin,i hate it! There's some of my opinion but i better stop there cos i'll write a book on it if i get carried away.

It's sunny and i'm indoors again!

My cat's breath smells like catfood

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
first of all i think you must distinguish between lies and terminological inexactitudes.
a lie can quite easily be bad (depending on your personal ideas of what are good and bad).
a terminological inexactitude is merely means to an otherwise unachievable end and in my opinion it is completely divorced from concepts of good and bad.
if anything makes a person feel better about themselves or the world they live in then, even if it couldn't be further removed from the truth, it surely must be good.

wherever you go, there you are.

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
P.s my luck dragon suffered minor angina and therefore had to abandon the race after the first colour so i apologise for the lack of competition. Once we're back in training and fitness levels are back to normal then maybe we'll have a rematch. It is nice up here though i never thought you could sit on a rainbow. Duh! silly me thought i'd fall through!

My cat's breath smells like catfood

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Cassandra, are you trying to lure me out of the woodwork.

No time to post a 21 page epic reply to this today.

Laters
Glass

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Santa and the tooth fairy are all good, as are fairies, legends etc. Santa and the tooth fairy enhance children's already strong belief in the magical in a positive way. The tooth fairy is there to help children through the pain and shock of their teeth falling out and that's not a bad thing. Children are magical. For some children magic is the belief that words gestures or behavoirs can change reality, "Step on a crack break your Mother's back". For some magic is believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden or monsters under the bed etc.

Many fairy tales are symbolic statements about finding our male or female identity. When we grow up we outgrow our literal understanding of the stories and come to understand their symbolic significance. Stories like this are used by all cultures to teach lessons to children. It matters not whether the story is true or not, what matters is the intention with which it is told. If it is told to help a child progress and learn it is good even if it is a scary story. If it is told to cause unnecessary fear and suffering it is not good.

Is every truth to be told? I think not. If someone tells a truth to make themself feel better and it hurts people then IMO that's a selfish act and it would be better tell no-one. For example a person telling their partner they had a one night stand 3 years ago because they feel it is eating away at them. Truths like this are told for the sake of the teller's guilty consience not for the benefit of the recipient.

Are all lies bad? No. For instance is it wrong to tell a child who is the result of their Mother's rape their Father was a good man who died before they were born? I think not.

There is no black and white when it come to lies and truths such as these only many shades of grey.

Onelove Thistlefirepixie

Are we nearly there yet?

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
I firmly believe as indeviduals we create our own reality. However, I don't believe this, because I have no firm beliefs.
As a being born into a 'concious choice' reality, I choose to make my concepts of 'good and bad' maliable.
I do think some lies can be bad, but I never loose sight of the fact that, in someone elses reality, the lie may not even be a lie. In this case, the lie pertains to nieghther good, nor bad, for it dosn't exist.
In this sense, I don't think a line can be drawn between true and false, good or bad. It is different for everybody.
Personally, I think mankind has lost touch with the wonders of what we call magick, and this saddens me. Human beings have potential to be and do so much more. But as the false security forced apon us for centuries continues to ram itself down our throats, we become more and more dependant. Alas dulling us to the knowledge that we are infact Magickal beings.
Lie through your teeth! Make up stories of elves and fairies, and magical talking trees! Such stories re-awaken the long forgotten magick we all hold within us.
PUSH THE ENVELOPE.

XXX

Az abouve, So below...

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Oh boy. biggggg discussion.

For starters, i value nothing higher than honesty and integrity. if someone makes a promise, they shouldn't break it. I don't care what the moral reasoning is. If they shouldn't be holding the promise, they shouldn't have made it. Now, of course if a gun was being held to their head or similar, it doesn't count. But otherwise.... and everyone has a million and one exceptions... you people! just state ur exceptions into the promise! Don't fricken say one thing and do another.....

anyway, i'm done with that rant.

Is honesty better? Well, it kind of sort of depends. Telling your kids legends and about faeries and dragons and stuff, even if you don't belive in them, is okay. IMO, thta's not lying, it is for imagination. The tooth fairy and santa claus etc seem a little annoying to me... i wouldn't tell my kids, cause i'd rather have them trust me. But, at the same time, I doubt ur doing irreversible harm or anything.

Every truth is definetly not to be told. People don't deal well with truth. *sighs* i'd rather hear every truth, personally, even if it's painful. that means i don't have to second guess things. But, most people would rather be happy then always know the truth. (i don't think they are mutually exclusive, but it depends on teh person i guess?)

Mikey B, I agree. The truth is to some extent how you preceive it. In fact, to a complete extent it's how you preceive it. Reality is a shakey existence. So your truth adn mine might not be the same. But that doesn't mean you should be actively dishonest with either of us.

quote:

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Orignally posted by the mind gap:
if anything makes a person feel better about themselves or the world they live in then, even if it couldn't be further removed from the truth, it surely must be good.

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oh? how do you figure? so if, say someone is always nice to me because they want me to feel good that's better than me knowing they actually hate spending time around me? I mean, telling someone you like their haircut is one thing, but just because something makes someone feel better doesn't mean it should be said if it's a lie ! I mean, lets take anotehr example. should we tell someone their an awesome spinner if they really arn't that good just so they feel better about themselves? I'm sorry, i just have a lot of problems with what you said and how that could wind up causing quite a bit of damage...

quote:

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Originally posted by Thistle:
Is every truth to be told? I think not. If someone tells a truth to make themself feel better and it hurts people then IMO that's a selfish act and it would be better tell no-one. For example a person telling their partner they had a one night stand 3 years ago because they feel it is eating away at them. Truths like this are told for the sake of the teller's guilty consience not for the benefit of the recipient.

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This is true in all the oddest situations. I've actually flat out come to the conclusion I shouldn't tell my male friends when their girl is cheating on them because they just get mad at me! One never found out the truth, and still won't speak to me, a couple others found out later and apologized and everything, but it's just not worth the stress since it doesn't chaneg anything anyway...! Anyhow, backing off that, there's a lot of truths taht don't accomplish anything by being told. I, oddly, as i stated before, woudl rather hear most of them pertaining to me, because it makes my mind rest easier. And the guilty conciousness thing... man, i know the kind of feeling. I always want to tell people things taht they really just don't need to know, becasue i feel it's dishonest not to. And i have to fight with myself sometimes to ride it out. And sometimes i tell adn it works out anyhow... but yeah. One point to watch out for in your example is taht if the guilty conciousness is destroying an otherwise good relationship, it might be worth teh discussion. it can happen. should prolly be avoided, but life does stuff liek taht sometimes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thistle:
Are all lies bad? No. For instance is it wrong to tell a child who is the result of their Mother's rape their Father was a good man who died before they were born? I think not.

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I'm going to disagree. That kind of dishonesty is just asking for problems later, wether the child finds out the truth or wether it just puts too much stress on the family relationships. I wouldn't tell a young child about rape or anything, i would just say that their father is (dead or alive depending on the truth) and can't live with them, i don't have an exact wording or anything, i'm just saying taht kind of stuff can backfire (i've seen it happen). Plus, it's a real shock if you think of ur father as this dead hero and find out he was a criminal at any point? Just saying.

quote:

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Oringinally posted by drome:
Make up stories of elves and fairies, and magical talking trees! Such stories re-awaken the long forgotten magick we all hold within us.
PUSH THE ENVELOPE.

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but i think this stuff is cool

Thanks for a great topic cass!

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
lie for the good of others = good.

lie for the good of yourself = bad.

About as simple as that methinks...

A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
exactly pyrophile, as long as no one gets hurt i think its ok... sometimes you have to lie not to hurt somone.. it would suck if you always had to tell the truth.. and i still consider myself a very honest person.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Honesty is definately the best policy as the saying goes.

However sometimes it is to be able to bend the truth a little so that you can suprise someone or something similar. ie Would you really prefer someone telling you that you were going shopping so that everyone else you knew could set up a surprise party for you?

Anyways I think pyrophile summed this up really well, as long as no-one is going to be hurt by a little bending of the truth then I think it is perfecctly acceptable It would be a bit of a boring world if you knew exactly what was going on all the time

Mark P

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Hey, i've heard u dont like marmite...

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Me???

I love it I replied to your thread - I am a student and I usually have a big tub of marmite in the cupboard especially for when I have run out of money cos it is really nice on, straight from the toaster, hot toast yummy

Mark P

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
*flutters by again..*

Am I bein' mixed up with that cute little Drome Pixie? HoOhoO!

TeeHee KyriBug, your post wasn't long enough!
I'm in agreement with most you say girly- but one thing! If I had a friend who was being cheated on, and I didn't tell them, and they found out that I knew all along, and, and, and- *slaps herself* they'd kill me!
I certainly would if I was in thier shoes!

xx

PS: OI! Marmite freaks!
you lot tried Marmite flavor
crisps from Walkers? HooHah!mmmmmmm......

Az abouve, So below...

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
When it comes to Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or whatever, I think that they're fun and should be fun. If your kids ask you point-blank, then you should tell them the truth, but explain, with a twinkle in your eye, that that doesn't mean that Santa isn't still going to come this year.

I mean, until you get asked point-blank, play along with it. After all, what's the point in having kids if you aren't going to mess with their malleable little minds?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Santa's not real?

Posted: 18th Jul 2002

quote:

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Originally posted by Kinudin:
Santa's not real?

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Ok, Cassandra. I think you brought up the topic, so you're responsible for dealing with this one.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Well like easter for instance....Christians tell their children that they celebrate the death of their savior by Explaining that a giant Bunny rabbit comes in the night and leaves little chocolate eggs....Hell as long as we are making things up, lets go ape shit.

How about telling them that goldfish leave lincoln-logs in their sock drawyers.

Child..."mummy, theirs a lincoln-log in me sock drawyer!?!?"

parent..."Thats the story of Jesus little one"

how arbitury can you get?? Ive read the bible, the word chocolate or bunny is no where in that damn book.

Just to put it simply though...should we be blaitantly honest 100% of the time....NO

Example#1...guys, when your wife comes to you and says..."Honey do i look fat??"

which one of you has said..."yes baby, your a frigg'n cow, now bring me a sandwich"

None of you, why?? cause #1 it would hurt their feelings, and it would take months before that damage was healed (this applies even if they are not fat)

My parents told me everythng. I asked they told me. Sex, santa, tooth fairy, whatever. And i turned out fine (twitch twitch)

Im a very straight forward person, and i hold honesty in high reguard, but somethings are petty, and it wouldnt matter either way..

Super'

Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear.


- Mark Twain

Posted: 18th Jul 2002

quote:

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I'm in agreement with most you say girly- but one thing! If I had a friend who was being cheated on, and I didn't tell them, and they found out that I knew all along, and, and, and- *slaps herself* they'd kill me!

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well if i over hear or if someone tells me a secret about my good friend you better beleive he will no within 30 minutes.. im like one of those winged monkies from wizard of oz. .. i will keep a secret regarding anyone elses relationship because i dont feel its my place. when it comes to my friends im loyal to them and telling me some dirt on them you might as well just tell them.. cause i will go streight to them with it... and depending on the dirt i may start a fight right there, and then go tell them.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
You may also consider that Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc are all along the same lines as misleading someone so they don't think you've arranged a surprise party for them.

Unless, of course, you're talking about a completely metaphorical Santa, Fairy, whatever... in which case perhaps the lie isn't really a lie at all. Kids don't think to themselves "There is no Santa" they simply think "Mom or Dad IS Santa!" once they figure it out.

So perhaps it's more of an alter-ego thing now. Like superheroes... are they liars for pretending to be average joes when they're not fighting crime? I can just see it now...

This is my gift; This is my curse; I am SANTA CLAUS

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

Posted: 19th Jul 2002

quote:

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Originally posted by Superman:
Well like easter for instance....Christians tell their children that they celebrate the death of their savior by Explaining that a giant Bunny rabbit comes in the night and leaves little chocolate eggs....Hell as long as we are making things up, lets go ape shit.

How about telling them that goldfish leave lincoln-logs in their sock drawyers.

Child..."mummy, theirs a lincoln-log in me sock drawyer!?!?"

parent..."Thats the story of Jesus little one"

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lol superman that's hilarious! have you heard the one about Jesus and the Brontosaurus?!

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 19th Jul 2002
Me, I am a compuslive liar, so try to understand me. I like spinning the ole yarn, it is great but you know there is a place for stories of farries and santa and a place where the truth must be told. If your a homless guy who all you got is your stories then share them, bring joy to someones day. After all most of our greatest pieces of literature are stories, lies that someone told over and over, eventually someone wrote down the story and it became a great work of art.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 19th Jul 2002
Superman!!!!!! Where have you been, you lurky lurker you...

Can I ask if your email is still ok at HBC?

I'm sending you one now but would like a new email if it's changed.

Oh yeah - ontopic.

Good : A good lie is a lie you don't mind people finding out about later on.

Bad : A bad lie is something you want to hide from the person involved forever.

Lying for "the right reason" is very subjective.

Using an above example, such as the one about knowing a friend is being cheated on and the possibility of them finding out you knew and didn't tell them = Bad lie because you don't ever want them to find out later on.

However not saying you were angry about something tricial your partner has done because it will start an arguement, but telling her later on when you aren't angry and discussing it = Good lie because it's something that can be sorted.

Aside form that the Santa-Claus/Tooth Fairy debate is easy to understand, it's a happy myth, that would be almost impossible to prevent them findg out from their friends/tv/school etc etc so run with it.

An unhappy myth, such as the boogeyman in the cupboard who likes to eat little children who don't wash their hands, is less likely to be pushed by media, friends and other organisations, and is likely to scare and frighten the little ones. So don't spread it!!!

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
I believe truth and lies are relative to your own and to others realities and experiences.

The problem for me is when we try to define others realities and explore their experiences through our own relative viewpoint of the world - that's where some misunderstandings occur.

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
I got a christmas card from Santa thanking me for my letter and it's signed by him and everything. And Ros has read it too. How can that be if you're not all lying about him not being real?

Meh

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
It's really, really hot in Texas/Arizona isn't it? Does it effect your thinking any?

Meh

Posted: 18th Jul 2002
Someone once wrote:
"Lies are the lubricant of social intercourse."

I think that kind of sums up my view on them =)

Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.

Posted: 18th Jul 2002

quote:

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Orriginally posted by Thistle: The tooth fairy is there to help children through the pain and shock of their teeth falling out and that's not a bad thing.

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I agree with you but I have an unfortunate story... I heard of this kid who pulled his teeth out so he would get money from the tooth fairy!

My little brother figgured out the Santa thing... But then played along with it for years! He was all like... Why ruin a good thing! Keehehehehe

*:...one day all the fairy fridges will be aligned and my pixie world will be complete...:*

Posted: 19th Jul 2002
Great post, Cass.

Kids have to learn to lie! It's a developmental stage at 2 or 3 or something. You can't lie unless you have a concept that other people see things differently from yourself, and little kids don't develop that understanding until 2 or 3 and if they don't ever develop it, then we call them autistic or aspergers or whatever label fits their other 'symptoms' best.

We all hear stories of kiddies who blurt out the truth at the worst possible moment.

Of course, adults 'lie' all the time (blur the truth, lie by omission, 'little white lies' - lies really are the lubricant of social discourse), and it's a really important stage in a child's psychological development to sort out in their own heads the adult hypocrisy of 'lies are bad' when the child sees adult's lieing (sp??) all the time to the point where a child figures out which lies are OK and necessary and which lies are actually bad, which is generally reached about the age of 7 or 8, if I recall correctly.

Anyway, back to lies as stories, which is the bit that really interests me, myths and fairytales etc are considered by psychologists to be ways in which children are allowed to deal with really scary situations - being abandoned by parents, having a new sibling come along, death, illness, etc - which is why a lot of the 'original' fairy tales are really scary and some even have sad endings!! It's a bit sad really that walt disney and co have sanitised a lot of the fairytales, but understandable in that us adults don't like our little kiddies upset (or even worse, if it puts us in the uncomfortable situation of having to deal with the issues raised!!).

Fairytales are also an important way of passing on the morals of the culture the kid lives in... which is a bit of a problem if you're Wiccan, for instance, and the witches are always getting pushed into ovens! On the other hand, exposing kids (and ourselves... I'm certainly not done reading fairytales!!) to stories from different cultures is a great way to make you question what exactly your personal morals are and aren't, and maybe even change them. The most influential books I have ever read are full of !kung bushman stories and their morality, and these two books completely changed the way I see the world. For the record, they are : 'A Story Like the Wind' and 'A Far Off Place' by Laurens van der Post, who for all his other faults, certainly knew a good story when he heard one.

This is from the 'A Far Off Place': (er background, two bushmen (Xhabbo and his wife Nuin-tara) have rescued two teenagers (Francois and Luciana (aka nonnie)) from a Moaist massacre in Western Africa and are escorting them across the Kalahari to safety) so they're in the middle of the desert, and they are telling each other stories (telling stories is a sacred act among the bushmen, btw) and Xhabbo tells stories about Mantis, the most sacred of the bushman Gods and how he created the world and all the other (fantastical, to us) things he has done, while Luciana tells them all about how she traveled to Africa in an aeroplane, and about sitting on cushioned seats in a metal tube with wings, being served dinner and drinks by the stewards etc. Xhabbo and Nuin-Tara can't get enough of Luciana's stories, they think she has the most wonderful imagination, and no matter how much she protests that the stories are true, they laugh at her and say she is a brilliant liar. And Luciana says 'but what about all your stories of Mantis, I think that shows that the bushman have great imaginations too!' but Xhabbo shakes his head and says 'but Nonnie, you are the better story teller, because of course your stories of flying in the air couldn't possibly have happened, while all my stories of Mantis are absolutely true!!'

So there you go. Sorry about the long post!

Posted: 19th Jul 2002
I don't care what you all say I know Santa Claus is real I went to see him in the high street last Christmas and he always brings me lovely pressies

Mark P