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Filthy-Ralph
Filthy-Ralph

member
Location: Barnstaple, Devon, UK
Member Since: 4th Nov 2004
Total posts: 66
Posted:ok so we were having a discussion the other day about progression from 5 beat weave.
What is the highest number performed? is there any such possibility in the 9beat?


If hope can grow from dirt like me.....It can be done.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:but the thing is doesnt add another qualification...



see the first bit.. fixed point rotation... either you accept it.. or you dont... you obviously don't... so the point is moot to you.. however.. there are some out there that believe in the efficacy of fxed point rotation ie. a longarm (giant) 3bt weave.. the whole premise of whihc is to turn the shoudlers.. so that one may actually weave using the fixed points (ala shoulders)..



the problem is.. this fixed point rotation has only been applied to the longarm motions.. and that's what confused me.. you have one weave mechanic.. you have another weave mechanic.. add the two.. and voila..



the point is that this move can be done WITH the feet planted.. and as such it the turning of the body is irrelevent..



the last thing I'd liek to point out.. is that weave.. obviously has different defintions.. I do not refer to a weave as arm twisting.. after all.. that outright excludes the giant weave.. however.. I agree that weaves involve a twisting on one end and an untwisting on the other.. which leaves the only qualification as feet being planted.. because once you finish twisting the arms as much as they go.. the only thing left is to twist the body.. ala the torso..



now this is why -I- called this 11bt weave.. some agree some dont.. and I'm not here to argue one way or the other.. I'm just saying that the arguments against it.. bear as little merit as arguements for it.. since neither use the same definition of -weave-...



its a quiant idea meant to spur thought and creativity.. nothing more..


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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:weaving while facing wall plane changes which transitions you can use to weave with, as it stops you from turning your shoulders... the jedi louise is a good name for those crossed arm high beat moves, but theres other ways to do seven that work more like the 3 and 5.



I really need to get a video camera and film this shizzle cos it seems no one gets it...



when i say wall plane i mean i don't turn my shoulders and i'm facing front. wheel plane, i turn my shoulders all over the place.

you can't do a jedi louise style 7 without turning your shoulders, so you can't do it wall plane, but you can do a jedi louise 6bt windmill without turning, so i class jedi louise 7 as a turning windmill, as turning a windmill adds a beat to it.(try turning a 2bt windmill, you'll be doing 3).

you can do a 5bt style 7 in wall plane, with no turning of the shoulders, and it has one transition over the shoulder, and one under, same as a normal weave, so i call it a weave. anything with both poi going in the same direction i call a weave, but then i say what type of weave.



and an infinite beat corkscrew weave dosn't beat rev's 11 or my 9 or whatever, it's just a continuously turning split time zeroth transition corkscrew, slap bang in the middle of the transition matrix, rather than out towards the edges where 7 beats lurk, preying on the minds of those that seek them.



You guys need to learn more sevens. then understand them. then everything* becomes clear, and you see the matrix**, and how to use it...

So here's a hint.



Do thru wraps. they're cool. practice them lots, there's loads of ways to do them.

Then do a normal 3 bt weave. then, when you are about to move the left poi over to the right, don't, let it thru wrap on your right wrist, and move the right poi over first. repeat on the other side. then try to move your hands out of the way of the poi string, so that it dosn't wrap your wrist.

surprise! you will be doing a normal 5 bt weave. this is the way i learned and teach the five beat.

then extend this concept to the five beat... learn the thru wrap to change which poi leads, then learn to get out of the way. you will be doing the seven beat weave, no elbows, no wraps. then understand this 7, as it's only half the story.



--ben



*Disclaimer: Everything weavey anyway. not /everything/.

**no relation.


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:the truwrap method is how I learned all my higher beat weaves... cept 9 and 11.. it really is a good way.. I mean thats the only way I've ever seen to get a 7bt btb.. since you can't (as far as I know) do elbow over elbow..

and I've got a couple of ways of doign the 5bt.. just to get differnet effects.. one of them that I use to help stretch brings the foreamrs togetherso that the wrists fold roughly around the others elbows.. usually places the lead hand aorund the bicep and the follow hand in the arm pit.. helps to stretch the shoulders and stuff..

and I agree been.. the wallplane stuff does help a lot.. and though different.. all the ways I do my weaves revolve around the same premise.. just different takes on the premise.. from different angles.. I think where we differ is when it comes to using stuff like insides and what not like you discussed.. but again.. not saying I'm right or your wrong.. jsut saying we have different conceptions of weave.. whihc is why stuff like that I prefix with inside or inverted.. to note the addition to the basic premise.. these other concepts I've been talking about don't have such a rpefix because they are simply in my book.. weaves..


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"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:thanks tent! broken down to wall plane / wheel plane, it kind of smacks you in the face. that's what I was trying to get at about 6 posts up. you can add 'wheel plane beats' to a 5 or 3 just as easily as the 7 to get to whatever count you want.



is there any limit to adding (wheel plane) beats with your feet that you take out with your arms (wallplane) instead? =oP maybe 7, right, or 8 depending on how you start?



-- dut

EDITED_BY: Dut (1100670377)


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tenticle
tenticle

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Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:by "wheel plane beats" if you beats added by turning, once you start adding beats by turning (shoulders or feet), you can only take them out again by turning back... unless you turn 360 keeping the poi plane the same, then it's taken itself back out (if your quick) and you can repeat it or transition. each 180' turn adds 1 beat, by changing which poi leads... so as many as you want, but it stops being a pure weave as soon as you do.
rev's 11 is a 7bt weave with a 360' turn under the poi on both ends, which is cool as anyway, and it'll look kin' incredible once it's cleaned up.

rev- your fixed point rotation thing is right, all poi moves start from the shoulders, the fixed point is where your arms join your spine, so i define all moves from that point and nothing moves around it without being added into the name.
so giant 3bt weave as i'm assuming you are doing it, (one long straight poi-arm system) is a turning longarm 2bt reel (a basic reel has the left poi on the left side, right poi on the right side, in wall plane, alternating between front and back) and turning reels have the same mechanics as turning windmills, the turn adding a beat by changing the lead, so you get 3 beats.
i don't call your 11 just a weave because if you do the thru wrap thing on a 7, getting out of the way is so obvious you'll laugh your way to a 9, no wraps, no turns (well 8 at least, the under arm transition kind of needs some extra guidance from your other hand, but its off before the transitions finished and noone's the wiser) so suddenly theres something to call a 9bt that fits the weave family better than a seven with a turn.

--ben


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I dont understand this 7 with a turn... I can do 9 without a 7+ anything 'cept more twisting of my arms..



I guess thats why I don't understand the criticisms.. I can do 9bts of arm twist alone.. nothing funky.. nothing special.. shrug



and the longarm 3bt involves me leaning a bit into the plane.. because my poi to poi goes straight across the shoulders.. kinda like pk in morning coffee..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:i ain't'nt criticisin'! that should read nine with a turn!

if it isn't wall plane with the shoulders straight, then there's a turn. if it's wheel plane, then there's a turn. if it's jedi louise, there's a turn. it's not a turn to reverse, it's a turn between two wall planes. with lower beat moves it's easy to disguise the turn, as you get higher, you use it to make them work. the advantage of the turn is it allows you to do the over arm transition both ways, which is generally easier. it's still a nine beat weave, but it involves a turn.
if you learn the wall plane 9bt trick with the thru wrap, and add it into the 11 on that vid, you'll find you do a 13, or an 11 if you kept your feet planted, or a 9 with no turn at all.
higher than nine with no turn it all starts to go odd, involving hyperloops that only exist to unwind. eleven with your feet planted is where the fixed point shoulder turning has to happen

--ben


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thor
thor

Flaming Lesbian
Location: Portland, Oregon
Member Since: 19th Feb 2004
Total posts: 181
Posted:damn. and i thought i was doing good to finally have the 5bt down pat.

Lights dancing off my skin as chains wrap round it.
Pain is in a little box and I'm so glad I found it.

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:tenticle:"......there's a turn. it's not a turn to reverse, it's a turn between two wall planes. the advantage of the turn is it allows you to do the over arm transition both ways, which is generally easier. it's still a nine beat weave, but it involves a turn."

surely if you turn through 180 then you are changing to reverse. smile its not really about where the feet moving, they can dance all over the place more the shoulders, but i hear what you saying.
I think you should also look at video to see if there are any crossing over the centreline of the body.

Spider basically means follow time - every move in follow time, all the spinning.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:when talking about turns and moving between wheel and wall plane during the same move, i find it is easier to use the restriction that the feet are always parallel to the shoulders ('fixed body') - it eliminates the confusion caused by the ability to turn 90deg to either side from the waist that is being argued over here and it makes the definition of a 'turn' unambiguous.

eg. standing in wheel plane you can easily twist at the waist by 90 deg to either side which is what tenticle is describing as 'moving from one wall plane to the other' which is indeed a 180deg turn.

wall plane does not really involve 'fwd' and 'rev' but rather 'clockwise' and 'anti-clockwise' which makes the effect of the turn far less obvious.

the important issue in all the is where the crossover points are in relation to a fixed body (by fixed i mean feet and shoulders in line, no turns from the hips/waist).
its where the fundamental differences bewteen wheel and wall plane reveal themselves - i.e. where crossover points are placed with no body rotation.


spider = follow time

as defined by that last post there and this one here.

smile

its still a 'fuzzy' term to me:

"SPIDER - follow time, spin in follow time anywhere, you can think of it as one move (arashi classification) or as a family (ww cross follow etc traditional club swinging classification) and as a way of spinning. It becomes a game to extend your spider, add btb, add wall plane, add long arm etc etc. )then go do a split time spider then butterfly, then parallel etc)"

which leads one to ask, how exactly are the beats counted in a spider?

from the definitions as i understand them, you could start counting when you begin spinning in cross-follow time and only stop when you repeat a movement or change timing/direction of a poi?

example: what exactly differentiates between a move that is labelled an 11bt spider and one that could be called an 11bt weave?

do you count the beats of just one poi in the spider or both?

if its both i guess its then possible that the counting restarts when a crossover point is hit?

anyway, apologies for my rambling - hope it doesn't setract from the discussion here cos i've been loving this thread.
thanks to all for the interesting reading - its like the 'what is a fountain' discussion turned 90 degrees (the whole thing, not just from the waist wink) with the theory taken to the nth degree smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:think of it like this:

spin clockwise, wallplane, and spin a 5bt on your right ('forwards'). when the poi transition from in front of you to behind, your hands are both higher than your elbows. when you bring it back to the front, your hands are below your elbows. this is what i mean by the over and under arm transitions.
now do the same wall plane 5, but just after you transition, turn 180' so you are spinning anticlockwise, with the poi on your left (still 'forwards') and when you transition it's from front to back, hands over elbows.
keep doing this, but turn to wheel plane. you'll still be doing the turn and still doing the overarm transitions. still a 5bt, but a 5 with a turn.

so basicly, any weave that can be done wall plane with over and under transitions fits the family 'pure weave' better than one that only has over transitions and so needs a turn. generally i find wall plane weaves more versatile than wheel plane anyway, and once you get used to it you learn forwards and reverse transitions at the same time. and butterfly ones too.

as for spiders... i don't think you would count the beats, just say which transitions are being used from which plane to which. you could work out how many beats there were from that if you wanted.

but back to the original point of the thread, 9 is probably the highest pure weave, as the eleven involves turning your shoulders anyway and i can't find an under arm transition that works the same as the over arm. if you can do that fountain thing that stays behind your head instead of going back in front of you, then the same kind of shoulder movement you do there makes the 11 work.

--ben


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Filthy-Ralph
Filthy-Ralph

member
Location: Barnstaple, Devon, UK
Member Since: 4th Nov 2004
Total posts: 66
Posted:its ok thor im in the same club. 5 bt is my newly reached limit. a little while until i reach these levels. good to get some of the ideas on it though for when we get around to it.

If hope can grow from dirt like me.....It can be done.

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:as an aside, i just realized wall plane butterfly weaves also have this under arm and overarm transition characteristic, but you can do both overarm transitions without turning, or both underarm. or one then the other. i think this is why wheel plane butterfly weaves seem to have four different transitions to do a 3bt.
and i now understand what rev was talking about one hand being antispun in butterfly weaves, you have to antispin one poi to do both transitions the same, no anti spin to do one over, one under no matter which way you are going when you start, it only really becomes noticable for 5 beat and when you lock your shoulders and do it wall plane. and you can do a really nice 7bt butterfly weave involving turning between the wall planes...

--ben


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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Ben would you please post a video of your 9 then?

coleman: Spider is only a fuzzy term cos your thinking in the london school of poi nomnenclature.
Which is analy desperate to define every move precisely.

Spider is any or all of old school follow time as a move. Its a poi spider weaving its web around your body.
Theres a gazillion moves that could be called spider, (and most of them look almost identical.)


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tenticle
tenticle

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Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:yep, soon as i can borrow a camera. 7 and 9 if you like.

--ben


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:cheers for the clear-up drew but i still think its fuzzy - your own words:
"Theres a gazillion moves that could be called spider"
that's pretty much the definition of fuzzy - the name only tells you that it could be one of hundereds of moves in a very large set.

i understand that spider is equivalent to cross follow - like a family or a way of spinning but my problem is understanding how that idea/definition is applied to a single move.

'spider' has been used to describe something in all three of your levels - i say its 'fuzzy' at the 'move' level.

the move definition is fuzzy which is what makes the spider concept so powerful - the way it makes sense to me is 'any repeated cross follow pattern is a move we can label as a spider'.

which is basically saying 'we don't need separate move names, one will do'.

dom is one level up from spiders and works solely with 'that one'.

it works well when talking about moves that are combinations of lots of ideas or when we are playing with an idea that is new to us but i feel it falls short when we are trying to talk about a specific 'set' of moves e.g. weaves, waistwraps, reels etc.

i ain't trying to stop ya using it, nor am i saying its not a great tool but lots of people don't understand it.

coming to my point then: if i say 'i span a 12bt spider the other day' how could you even begin to guess what the move was without a whole extra bunch of information?

as i don't tell you you how i was positioned and where my arms went, it could be a fountain, a weave variation, a ww combo - anything in fact that is cross follow and repeats after 12bts.

shrug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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