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Posted:I didn't vote yesterday. I had two reasons. Before you jump on your "if you don't vote you can't complain" bandwagon hear me out. My first reason was because I've spent the past month moving around and haven't been able to register in my new state and didn't have time to get ahold of an absentee ballot. Though that was not my most compelling reason for not voting. It was because I didn't see a candidate running that I found I truly wanted to vote for. I find myself disagreeing with President Bush more and more. I find that though I agree with Kerry on quite a few of his issues I didn't think he would do a much better job. I found him to be a grade A dink. And Nader? well...it's Nader, the Ross Perot of this decade. I spent a lot of time reflecting on whether or not to vote just so I could say I voted. I then realized that would be a greater abuse of civil liberty than not voting at all would be. Why should I vote for someone I don't want in office? Granted one of them was going to be president but how was I to choose? Perhaps I should have gone by MTV's which candidate has more "Bling". Oh yes..we want a president with all the "Bling-Bling" this country can buy. No. I want a president who isn't going to put this country on a faster track to hell. Didn't have that option this time around. I figured they'd do an equally great job of running us into the ground. So I didn't jump on the Kerry bandwagon, I didn't toast my marshmallows in the Bush camp, I merely laughed at the Nader campaign. I saved my vote and prayed for a better choice next time around. So here's to the next four years! May we unite as a nation, may we find peace, jobs, and a healthcare solution! May we save social security and our economy. May we groom decent candidates for next election and above all...may we survive. So put on your helmets, buckle up, and hold on to your basket tight...here we go..... beerchug

Always Beautiful

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Zyanya Bella

Why should I vote for someone I don't want in office?



To keep the other guy out because he's clearly a moron.

But it's your choice, so fair enough (seriously, not being sarcastic)


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Posted:but see...i found them both to be morons..thus the point of my nonvoting...

Always Beautiful

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:well i agree with you, if there was no-one you wanted to vote for then you shouldn't necessary feel compelled to vote. Personally (not being american so couldn't really say) i wouldn't have either.

Yes, a lot of people felt very strongly that Bush should be kept out of office, it doesn't mean the other guy was necessarily going to be any better. I think it would almost have sent a stronger message if large numbers of people had registered to vote and then didn't. If thousands of people refused to go to polls, then wouldn't someone wonder why, and seek out some different candidates for next time?


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:No, because that happened last time and they've still got Bush

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:zyanya.....i think you did the right thing in your case. my wife did not vote yesturday because she 1)did not feel strongly for either person and 2)was not that informed on the issues........so i think you did the best thing in your case..........i got so pissed off this year by the "vote or die" campain from censored p didy, and the whole "rock th vote". you have 2 media icons just about FORCEING people to vote even though they know nothing of the issues.............so last time, you did the right thing,

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Ifrit
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Ifrit

The GF of HoP
Location: Somerset, England

Total posts: 492
Posted:you just hav to vote for the lesser of the two evil it that simple.

fire leads to creation

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:no its not that simple ifrit.........(the fallowing sentance is not ment to offend, bother or piss any one off, but im sure it will)

if just vote for the lesser of to evils, with out knowing what either of them REALY stand for, you may vote someone in that is the opposit of what you want......to vote uninformed is just dumb, its a waste of time, and there is not point.....voteing because you feel passonite about it, or realy know whats going on and are INFORMED is a good vote, but dont just vote because people say you have to........or because people put you down for not voteing...........that was the BIGGEST problem this year, to mee any way, you had so many parties saying vote vote vote vote, no matter what vote, its unamerican not to vote, vote or die.......presureing someone to vote is wrong, its a vote OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL and people seem to forget that during votes that are this devided.........i voted for kerry because i agreed with alot of his issues, mostly stem cell and health care....and like i said my wife did not vote, because she felt just like Zyanya, and i stand by that dession........k im done, sorry about that, dont think i'm attaking you ifrit, im just sick of the political peir pressure.......


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I would have voted for Kerry anyway - maybe it's a wasted vote, but at least it would have saved the lives of a few innocent Iraqi people, many innocent Iranians, protected the rights of the female to chose on abortion and not treated homosexual people like they have just landed from Mars.

That's enough reason for me.


Getting to the other side smile

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:i agree with fryed fish, i think you should know what they stand for and what you are voting for.

I am not american and so I don't feel I am in a position to say that i would or wouldn't have voted either way, but i do know that if i was in Zyanya's position, I wouldn't have voted either.

In a democracy you have a right to vote, and you have an equal right to refuse to vote. Nobody should be pressganged into it.


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I'll take the lesser of two evils over the greater of two evils any day.

Sometimes, the choice sucks, but I still think you should make the choice.

People need to realize that in a situation of voting for the lesser of two evils, if you fail to vote, you vote for the greater of the two evils.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:Are there no minor parties in the US?

In a small way voting for the Ginger Frog and Wobble party (or whatever) shows dissatisfaction with the major two at least.

It was a very sad loss when Screaming Lord Sutch died.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:There is other parties, but it's unlikely they will ever get power because every election everyone is like "VOTE AGAISNT THE EVIL BLAH BLAH BLAH IF YOU DONT THE WORLD SHRIVELS UP AND BURNS!"

It's really great how bush, the supposed uniter has completly split the country and split everyone who doesn't want to vote for an obvious jackass who may or may not be less "evil" agaisnt everyone who is.

I really think it's time to break the union. You can have hippy ville (west) redneck ville (south) chowda ville (east) and otherville (central)


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Zyanya Bella

Why should I vote for someone I don't want in office?



Because you know that, regardless whether you want them in office, one of them will be inaugurated next year.

I can see your point, but it's not as if none of the candidates will become president just because you choose not to vote. smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:hmmm....I take it in America that you don't get hit with a fine if you don't vote....two elections ago I decided I didn't like either party and got hit with a nasty fine fromt he government....now I vote for the lesser of two evils just so I don't have to pay the government more money.

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:I don't think that not voting alltogether quite puts across the message that you don't trust any of the candidates, since the people who count up the votes can't tell if you were trying to make a point or just feeling a little lazy and couldn't be bothered.

I'd be curious to find out what would have happened if all those people who were voting for Kerry as the 'lesser evil' deliberately spoiled their vote.

Maybe then the message would start getting through that there are people willing to make the effort to vote, if only there were someone who was good enough to vote for.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:I still cant understand how it seems that eveyone else in the English speaking world seems to know so much more about American Politics (especially about how bad Bush has been - not just for the world but for the US too) than Americans do. Its crazy!

why wouldnt you vote for the lesser of two evils? If you did that everytime you might get an improvement. by not voting you get nothing and you have to live with it.

Its the same cracked logic Ive seen on other threads "Better the devil you know" How daft is that? so if you had Saddam Hussein in power you would continue to vote for him 'better the devil you know" style? No of course not...but do you see the logical conclusion then? You must draw a line! at some point you have to say - whoa, time for a change. Im amazed this hasnt happened in the majority of American voting minds, with Shrub's pitiful record as a president.

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:also, my boyf always uses the excuse that he's not well informed enough to vote - rubbish! if you don't know enough abot either party then FIND OUT. it's not as if there's a lack of party political leaflets and stuff.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:The "Vote or Die" thing is, in my mind, a good concept (OK obviously not die but a fine or something) because it encourages people to get involved with politics. I think that the single most politically irresponsible thing one can do with their only say in the running of their country and, to some extent, their lives is to not use it for anything. It's akin to being the subject of a monarchy - what was that whole war of independence thing about again?

At least if people had to vote they'd be motivated to find out what's going on around them. And yeah perhaps push for better candidates.

I believe voter apathy grows from a feeling of disempowerment, sure, but also from a lack of real alternatives. People think they'll get basically the same thing whoever gets in, which certainly seems true of the US from the outside. The differences are quite insignificant, and in the end it seems to come down to the personal character of the candidate. Which is reidiculous. You're voting in the administation, not just Bush or Kerry.

(Note all the "I think"s and stuff up there - I'm not saying other people should feel this way, just that if I was in that situation I would act differently because I feel it is my responsibility as a citizen (well, in reality still a subject frown ) of my country. You guys do whatever smile )


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Josh


I still cant understand how it seems that eveyone else in the English speaking world seems to know so much more about American Politics (especially about how bad Bush has been - not just for the world but for the US too) than Americans do. Its crazy!





i think the reason that most of the english speaking world know so much about american politics is because it has a knock on affect for us (e.g. our government in ireland allowing american military planes to land and re-fuel at shannon airport enroute to iraq, despite opposition from the majority of the irish public and continuous protesting, and the fact that this is also in breach of the neutrality clause in our constitution) and we care.



the majority of americans are incredibly insular. most have never left their own country, and never intend to (in fairness though, look at the size of it, it's not like they really need to). they look no further than their own door and are less concerned with world events



we've all seen this beofre haven't we?



(by the way, i'm not taking the piss out of any americans. i just feel that seeing as your country defends it's right to invade other countries you should be better informed)



back to voting; to me it's a moral obligation



people have died (and many probably still to) for the right to vote. we owe it to them to use it.



and i don't believe that "my vote won't make a difference" lark. in our last general election the canditate i voted for won his seat by a margin of 11 votes. if myself and 10 others just hadn't bothered going out in the rain to the polling booth that day...


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Written by: Josh

I still cant understand how it seems that eveyone else in the English speaking world seems to know so much more about American Politics (especially about how bad Bush has been - not just for the world but for the US too) than Americans do. Its crazy!

why wouldnt you vote for the lesser of two evils? If you did that everytime you might get an improvement. by not voting you get nothing and you have to live with it.

Its the same cracked logic Ive seen on other threads "Better the devil you know" How daft is that? so if you had Saddam Hussein in power you would continue to vote for him 'better the devil you know" style? No of course not...but do you see the logical conclusion then? You must draw a line! at some point you have to say - whoa, time for a change. Im amazed this hasnt happened in the majority of American voting minds, with Shrub's pitiful record as a president.

Josh



The campaign the democrats put forth is only slightly more liberal then that of the republicans. It's more of an issue of "voteing for saddam or voteing for that guy who is almost like saddam"

The democrats voted a lot of the [censored] up [censored] like the patriot act in. Is it so stupid to not want anything to do with them? is it so heinous to be idealistic and hope for a long term change by spoiling your ballot if you don't agree with anyone or "throwing" away your vote by voteing for a more sensible candidate like nader?

The end doesn't justify the means if the end is the same. It's still the same pack of clowns that let most of the stupid [censored] happen in the first place. The democrats have aligned themselves to win over the same idiot right wing jackasses that voted bush in twice. Does this not indicate anything to you? does their performance in the last 4 years not show anything?

I think the most realistic alternative for those who don't want to participate in the disembowlment of the US is to move the hell out of their. My home canada isn't a very good place to move to as our populace is to addicted to cheap american money to give a damn about our soverignty. a good part of canada is like minded to the US and they happen to have all the power. Canadians seem to mostly hate bush but i gurantee that would change if kerry got elected and implemented his isolationist economic policy and our dollar dropped a few cents (all it takes to get canadians to care about politics)

lately my only motivation is to try to move the hell away from this continent.


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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:I'll take the lesser of two evils over the greater of two evils any day.

Sometimes, the choice sucks, but I still think you should make the choice.

People need to realize that in a situation of voting for the lesser of two evils, if you fail to vote, you vote for the greater of the two evils.


there is a book that has quite a good speechy thing about that - lookining for alibrandi or something. definitely had alibrandi in the title


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:One thing to remember though..
US Population - somewhere in the neighborhood of 270 million
Votes cast this election - ~120 million (slightly less than half of America)

So right now we've got ~45% of the country has voted. But...
Percent of population ineligible to vote due to age (under 18) or lack of citizenship, a conservative estimate would be roughly 1/3 of the total number of people here. So we've got a total rough estimate of eligible voters that's about 180 million.

120/180 is 66%.

OK, enough with the math now (sorry, I'm an engineer). But what these numbers mean - either a lot of people wanted to have their voices heard (half?), or a lot of people were really angry and wanted change (other half?). Our voter turnout hasn't been good in decades, but this election set records for participation, so obviously most of the US feels it needs to cast a ballot and be heard. Maybe P Diddy was working too, because there was record turnout among younger voters (first time eligible).

I'll say nothing of the results being good or bad, because that's not what this thread is about. But my point is that America really did want to get politically active this time around and I think that's a good thing.

Also remember - on a ballot there's more than just "who's your pick for President?" In my state alone we had several important issues like defining marriage, adding a state lottery, and adding a tax to cigarettes to generate revenue for Oklahoma, which is kinda in dire need of money and better incentives for teachers to work here.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Posted:I don't knkow where to begin replying.

Point A: Duty to Vote) I very much agree we all have a civic duty to vote. There are other important things besides the president. But as I stated above I just moved to NY a few weeks ago and can't say I know anything about its issues therefore how could I have made a decision? Might as well ask me to vote for the British Prime Minister. Secondly I don't think there should be a punishment for those who do not vote. Many people have very good reasons not to vote. I absolutely refuse to vote when I don't support either candidate. I was very well informed on all points of all the campaigns. To be perfectly honest I despise the Republican Agenda and support about half of what the Democrats want but I didn't trust Kerry anymore than I did bush. In this case for me it was like choosing between Bin Laden and Saddam. Equally hienous choices. I don't truly believe there is a lesser of the two evils.

Point B: Minor Parties) This will be a very short point. The minor party (Independant) barely gets one percent of the vote and in this case the candidate was Ralph Nader. I would vote for Kerry and Bush and Saddam and Osama and eat my own eyeballs before I voted Nader.

Point C: Vote or Die/Rock the Vote) As annoying as these campaigns were they did quite a bit of good. They took young voters and convinced them that thier voices should be heard. They informed people who usually either wouldn't care or wouldn't understand. Granted, P. Diddy half scared the hell out of me because I can just see him getting a list of people who didn't vote and ordering hits. *Note to self....change name....wait...I did...I got married! haha fooled him!* I don't think they so much forced people to vote, more so they raised awareness which is a good thing.

Point D: The Evil that is Bush) I can see, as can most people with half a brain, all the harm that Dubya has done to the U.S.. Some people however choose to overlook it. Perhaps they think giving him another four years will give him time to fix himself. Doubtful but you never know. I sincerely disagree with almost all of what he stands for but you must understand the Democratic party wanted to do some pretty screwy things as well. Which leads me to:

Point E: The Republican Agenda) What scares me the most is the fact that we have a Republican President, an overwhelming republican majority in both the Senate and the House, and we have 4 Supreme Court Justices about to retire within the next few years. Of course the President appoints the justices so anyone want to guess what party they'll be from? So within the next four years the Republicans will control all three branches of the United States Government. Washington will be in thier hands and aside from filibustering every bill there isn't much the Democrats and independants can do about it. Translation: Bush's agenda will soar through into law almost completely unchecked. If all of the Republicans vote strictly along party lines every bill Bush comes up with will pass. I can almost garuntee that during this Presidency Roe v. Wade will be overturned, Abortion will be banned, Gay marriage will be banned, and they'll more than likely attempt to make homosexuality illegal altogether. They're already trying by attempting to outlaw sodomy and a few other things they've tacked onto bills as riders. Like I said people hold on tight...its going to be a bumpy ride. I personally am thinking some nice blue pillows in my handbasket will definately help the decor on the way down. What do you think?


Always Beautiful

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Mistress Aurora


Mistress Aurora

Hot Schtuff
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX

Total posts: 1032
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish


if just vote for the lesser of to evils, with out knowing what either of them REALY stand for, you may vote someone in that is the opposit of what you want......to vote uninformed is just dumb, its a waste of time, and there is not point.....voteing because you feel passonite about it, or realy know whats going on and are INFORMED is a good vote, but dont just vote because people say you have to........or because people put you down for not voteing...........that was the BIGGEST problem this year, to mee any way, you had so many parties saying vote vote vote vote, no matter what vote, its unamerican not to vote, vote or die.......presureing someone to vote is wrong, its a vote OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL and people seem to forget that during votes that are this devided.........i voted for kerry because i agreed with alot of his issues, mostly stem cell and health care....and like i said my wife did not vote, because she felt just like Zyanya, and i stand by that dession........k im done, sorry about that, dont think i'm attaking you ifrit, im just sick of the political peir pressure.......



I agree. The PDiddy thing kinda made me pissy. I thought it would influence people to just go out and vote and not look at the things the canidates stood for.



RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:Written by: TheBovrilMonkey

I'd be curious to find out what would have happened if all those people who were voting for Kerry as the 'lesser evil' deliberately spoiled their vote.

Maybe then the message would start getting through that there are people willing to make the effort to vote, if only there were someone who was good enough to vote for.



i kind of thought this too, but by spoiling it somehow, then you could just be portrayed as a silly twat who can't work out how to do it properly.... you'd need to be sure it was registered as a non-vote.... Maybe a "neither" option should be included on voting slips in all democracies...

Shouldn't you also have the right to make your voice heard if you don't think either option is good enough? Sure people can kick up a fuss in other ways, but not everyone is necessarily going to make the effort to be a political activist of that kind, why can't they make a stand through voting?? I know the answer is blatantly obvious that the governments - being the ones who control voting - aren't likely to consider it as an option - but hypothetically speaking, why shouldn't that voice be equally heard? Granted there would still have to be a government installed, but if enough non-votes are registered - the option could be to keep the present government and re-run the election with new candidates and better policies - it might at least encourage them to buck up their ideas a bit.

just a thought really, i can understand the lesser of two evils reasoning, i just really think that for a democratic election there isn't enough democracy... if you don't agree with either party, i think you should also be able to register that opinion too.


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Posted:That is a really interesting idea. I know that in the constitution we have the right to depose the current government and start all over again. Though there is no real legal way to do that. I agree. There should be a non-vote and if there are enough non-votes a new election should be run. But I can't see that ever happening.

Always Beautiful

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:america needs to get themselves a three branch, completely independent governmental system like we have in aus - the judicary, something and legislature.

they are all independent (it says so in the constitution) and it all works to make sure that one person doesnt get that sort of power.

how funny would it be if there was a mass exodus of america, and there ended up being, like, 5 people in the country?


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Posted:we do have a three part government. We have the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. However in this election a republican was elected President(executive office), There is a republican majority in both houses of the legislative branch, and 4 from the judicial branch are about to retire and the other two branches nominate and put those justices on the bench. So you see even with they system of checks and balances there is always a flaw.

Always Beautiful

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