Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Anti-spin BF weaves, fact or fiction?

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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:yo,

ok rev, its time to talk.

having got the anti-ttn (wich by the way is just a case of moving the wrong arm in a ttn) i was looking at anti-bf-weaves. the trouble is, i dont think they exist.

say we are gooing forward in front, and we do and anti-ttn to put the right hand under the left and across, now if we continue the weave motion the left hand should go under the right, the trouble is by this time the left hand is going backwards so that motion isnt anti spin. thats why there are eight anti-bf weaves, cos on each wall plane you got 4 choices of which beat is going to be anti spun, but in all of them there is only one beat of anti spin.

but wait a mo, lets look at a normall bf weave. the right hand goes over the left this time, normal spin, all good, but then on the other side the left hand has to go from underneith to untop to come back, but its going backwards, so this movement is, umm, anti-spin..... unless you continue the ttn with the right hand, so that the left is always passive.....

so, either anti-bf weaves dont exist, or they are simply a slight variation on which hand is activly threading the needle, wich brings us back to the first bit.

the most crucial wuestion, does it look any difrent, well, maybe.

antispin however does offer the way to change between each type of bf weave, tho you dont have to....

ok, enough bafflement.

T wave


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Burning Brain
Burning Brain

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Posted:well duh. how didnt you get that the first time



shrug



by the way, HOP should make some smilies doin some isolations or btb 7bt weaves and whatever Nx talkin about above


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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:Personally I don't think normal anti-spin weaves exist. They strike me as just being buzzsaw weaves where you deemphasise the buzzsaw bit. But that's another argument smile

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Rev
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Posted:ok the reason I brought them up is because of the suttle change in difrerence is a signifcant change in swing... see the thread on deconstructing butterflies/ttns that I posted.

it boils down to this..

when spinning same direction you can bring a hand over or a hand under and get the same effect..

when spinning opposite direction spinning a hand over and a hand under are two different effects..

it essentially goes back to where you draw the line on the butterfly weave.. personally I don't see a difference between left hand under vs right hand over, as being enough of a change to negate the bf weave.. as such you get 8 versions with forward left and rev right.. and thus by flipping those you get 8 more.. my take at least.. then again you'll have people that argue taking the right hand over is th only weave, taking the left hand under is weaving half a ttn.. whatever.... in that case you get 8 bf weaves and 8 half ttn weaves.. which are virtually identical but different in spin.. but then again isnt that everything..

anyway see my post in the other thread..


oh and spiral.. antispin IS NOT A BUZZSAW WEAVE...

look.. take your left arm.. hold it straight.. now do your 5bt twist with the right.. (ala a straight arm weave.. ) notice how the right arm is inside.. and the left arm is outside..

now.. hold the left arm straight and antispin the right around.. check that out.. left arm out.. and right arm inside..

that must mean that the that the poi spin inside when I weave but I don't notice because they are spinning on the outer edge of the big circle.. whihc means antispin spins like normal spin but backwards.. not buzzsaw'd.. whihc would lead to inversions.. whihc would lead to antispin inversions.. whihc makes that point moot.. (you know I cant pass an argument)


oh and back on topic.. the thing about an antipsun ttn.. whihc is the root of the antispin bf weave.. is that you must do it properly.. whihc means.. whne you push the right arm under.. you can just kinda push under and let the left hand come over.. because that is cheating it.. whihc leads people to think there is no difference.. but hold the left arm striaght.. and push the right under.. then hold the right straight and push the left under.. it is nowhere near as easy or the same as half-ass pushing one under while bringing the other over..


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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:yeah rev, but my point is the action of putting the left hand under is with the spin, its not anti-spin. the only way to go anti would be to keep the left arm straight and push the right hand over, so the left hand does nothing and the right anti-spins.

and spiralx, if you think they are the same you aint doing it right.

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spiralx
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Posted:Written by: Rev
look.. take your left arm.. hold it straight.. now do your 5bt twist with the right.. (ala a straight arm weave.. ) notice how the right arm is inside.. and the left arm is outside..

now.. hold the left arm straight and antispin the right around.. check that out.. left arm out.. and right arm inside..


Could you clarify what you mean here by "antispin the right around"... if I'm not doing it right, then just saying that isn't much help :P


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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:ok

stick your left arm out straight, no poi.

with the normal forward weave motions take the right hand, with poi, over the left, round under and out, just like when you learnt.

now, take the right poi but feed it under then over the left arm.

this is anti spin, because you are going against the direction of the spin.

so for forward antispin weave you have to go under the arm to transition, instead of over.

this mean you have to seperate the poi slightly and also thread the needle with the planes cos otherwise they clash.

so you thread the right poi inside the left and take it to the right side, the left follows imeadatly (feels to quick but thats ok) and then threads inside the right poi to come back to the right underneith.

simple!

T wave


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Pyrolific
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Posted:are there any videos that clarify wtf you guys are on about?

smile

Josh


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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Vidaos, ha, yeah, right. *snigger*

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Durbs
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Posted:Shhh, Josh - they're just making it up to sound cool smile

Nx? Is still struggling with a 3bt weave really....


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spiralx
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Posted:My question is though, does the right poi ever come inside the left arm?

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Rev
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Posted:yes.. but the point I think you miss is that it comes -inside- oon as normal weave too... so the fact that it is -inside- on an antispin doesnt make it any more -inside- than normal...



that's why the straight arm weave is the best example, we can give guys... because it involves only move -one- arm..



so just to clarify again... stick the left arm straight out in front of you and spin the poi clockwise in that hand..



now do a -normal- spin weave motion.. ie.. take the right hand.. start on the left side it should go over the left (from 9:00-> 12:00 -> 3:00) and under the left (from 3:00 -> 6:00 -> 9:00) AND the left hand should be further OUT than the right hand.. meaning the right hand is spinning -INSIDE-...



now.. from this point.. I want you to spin back the other way.. DO NOT MOVE THE LEFT ARM... continue spinning clockwise, but take the right arm under the left (from 9:00-> 6:00 -> 3:00) and back over the left (from 3:00 -> 12:00 -> 9:00).. the hand goes in the exact opposite path as before... hence the antispin.. it appears different because you are moving on the -inswing- vs moving on the -outswing- like before.. thus it -appears- to be swinging buzzsaw like to do these motions, but really is not spinning any more buzzsaw than a normal weave..



the reall kicker is that when you get good enough.. (whihc I'm not, but mr nix there is).. you can keep your hands close enough to where the planes barelychange back and forth (inside and out) at all.. kinda like the normal weave..



I'm sorry for those of you that can't follow this.. I wish I wasnt so text ignorant, as to post this well, but antispin is nowhere NEAR as complicated as it sounds.. for those that understand antispin flowers.. you understand this motion.. take your flower and bring your hands closer together.. the closer together you get, the closer to the actual weave motion you'll get.. but if you follow the description above, you should be able to work out the straight arm antispin weave fairly well..



and regardless of what nix says.. just work on getting the crossover from 9->6->3 in one beat.. and 3->12-->9 in one beat.. sure it makes 5 poi beats on a 3bt weave hand motion, but its enough to get you a wroking start... and in my opinion is much more comfortable anyway. because getting it in a true 3bts is a pain.. and all wobbly bouncy... but that's probably just because I suck at this.. like most everything else..



nix- its not with spin... the act of pushing the right under appears with spin because the right is spinning counter clock.. but its not with spin.. the idea is that the right is coming from the 11:00 ish position to the right side, and back under the left.. like a reverse ttn hand motion.. with a forward spin.. that is not -with- spin.. nor does it spin like its with spin.. the only way for it to come out with spin is if you bring your left arm up and over, more then the right arm across and under..


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spiralx
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Posted:Written by: Rev
yes.. but the point I think you miss is that it comes -inside- oon as normal weave too... so the fact that it is -inside- on an antispin doesnt make it any more -inside- than normal...


When? In a normal weave you're doing over-under-out. You can show this by doing a straight-arm weave - when one hand is by your armpit there is no inside left for anything to spin in, yet you are still doing the same standard weave movements. And I don't think you can say one hand or the other is closer in, it doesn't come up.

Written by: Rev
now.. from this point.. I want you to spin back the other way.. DO NOT MOVE THE LEFT ARM... continue spinning clockwise, but take the right arm under the left (from 9:00-> 6:00 -> 3:00) and back over the left (from 3:00 -> 12:00 -> 9:00).. the hand goes in the exact opposite path as before... hence the antispin.. it appears different because you are moving on the -inswing- vs moving on the -outswing- like before.. thus it -appears- to be swinging buzzsaw like to do these motions, but really is not spinning any more buzzsaw than a normal weave..


How do you get the hand over the left from that position? Although actually your directions say your right poi should be spinning backwards, which would make it doable but a butterfly weave? Or do your clock times confusingly mean something other than in which direction the poi is pointing?

If it appears to be a buzzsaw anyway, why isn't it? Buzzsaw weave is under->over, and I can do that so it looks more like a weave by simply changing where I do the buzzsaw from the middle to just inside my arms.


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tenticle
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Posted:Written by: Rev


now.. from this point.. I want you to spin back the other way.. DO NOT MOVE THE LEFT ARM... continue spinning clockwise, but take the right arm under the left (from 9:00-> 6:00 -> 3:00) and back over the left (from 3:00 -> 12:00 -> 9:00).. the hand goes in the exact opposite path as before... hence the antispin.. it appears different because you are moving on the -inswing- vs moving on the -outswing- like before.. thus it -appears- to be swinging buzzsaw like to do these motions, but really is not spinning any more buzzsaw than a normal weave..







hmmm.... do an anti spin 3bt weave with both hands held out in front of you, so that both the inside bits happen in the same plane. that plane is the buzzsaw plane... and the move is easier to do, without that awkward trying to force the inside beat to look inside weird separation thing... each poi does 1 beat of crossed over side, 1 beat buzzsaw, 1 beat of crossed over side, carry through the same side, repeat, and while one is buzzsaw, the other is carrying.

If you spread the insides out so they happen more in the outside plane of their side, the move looks jerky and strange, put them where they want to be and it's nice and smooth.

So i agree with spiral on this one...



**edit** do an anti spin 3 bt, and let the planes go to a cross formation. you can clearly see how each poi is moving around the other arm and which poi goes where, and the same side carry in the desription above collapses back to being on the crossed over side. which is also a cool way to get from forwards weave to reverse ttn in one easy movement...



--ben

EDITED_BY: tenticle (1098910816)


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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:cor, i hope your coming to pip this weekend ben, cos i aint got a clue what you is onnabout

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tenticle
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Posted:i hope so, but as i'm working 11-3 and 7-11 i'm not sure how long for...
but in the mean time, spin an anti spin 3bt, change it into an anti spin atom 3bt and you'll see what i mean about collapsing planes. with any luck...

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:ok let me try this again.. because I'm being misunderstood as normal..

the 'buzzsaw' part of a antispin weave.. occurs in a normal weave.. you don't notice it because your poi are in the outswing..

do this..
twist a normal spin 5bt weave.. with one arm straight.. the arm that actually moves.. stop it a 9:00 and 3:00 so that it spins a lockout.. I don't know about you.. but my locked out poi is spinning closer to -me- than my straight arm poi..

don't know about anyone else.. but that's the same place my poi cross when I antispin.. infact.. those are where the inside beats pass close to my arm.. so if my poi are in the same plane.. position.. etcc going one way.. as they are the other way.. I don't see how one can say that (AS I STATED MANY TIMES) that nantispin has -any more buzzsaw than normal spin-

I never once said it doesnt appear buzzsaw'd... I never said it doesnt buzzsaw.. I said it doesnt have any more buzzsaw than a normal weave..

so again.. in case I misworded something in some freak way..

left hand straight out.. spinning clockwise.. wallplane

take your right arm and put it over the left arm so that its spinning clockwise wallplane to the left of the left arm... right poi should be closer to YOU than the leftpoi...
now bring the right over the left so that it is now spinning on the right side.. still closer to you..
now bring it under the left so that it is spinning where it orginally was but under the left instead of over...notice the right stays closer to you thjis WHOLE time..

now
from that position.. bring under the left back to the right side...
now bring it back over the left to the left side.. now your back where we orginally started.. and antispun where you normal spun...whihc implies to me.. there is no difference in path..


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tenticle
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Posted:rev- i'm not dissagreeing with you, the normal 3bt weave does a bit of buzzsaw on the other side of the circle to the anti spin 3bt. The reverse antispin weave is what someone would be doing if they faced you and held your hands while you did a normal forwards 3bt. but luckily, that person isn't there normally, and the whole making it go inside for them bit dosn't have to happen. so the inside bit dosn't happen in a normal spin, because theres nothing for it to be inside.

--ben


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Posted:Written by:
hmmm.... do an anti spin 3bt weave with both hands held out in front of you, so that both the inside bits happen in the same plane. that plane is the buzzsaw plane... and the move is easier to do, without that awkward trying to force the inside beat to look inside weird separation thing... each poi does 1 beat of crossed over side, 1 beat buzzsaw, 1 beat of crossed over side, carry through the same side, repeat, and while one is buzzsaw, the other is carrying.
If you spread the insides out so they happen more in the outside plane of their side, the move looks jerky and strange, put them where they want to be and it's nice and smooth



is one hand buzzsawing whilst the other hand is outside? cos i recon i agree with you, tho atom anti weave is [censored] me up at the mo.

heres the killer tho, theres two ways to do it, the poi thats about to cross normally comes inside the poi thats staying so they dont hit. but its also possible to have the crossing poi stay outside the other then go under and through to the other side. weird huh?

T wave


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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:actually thats just weird, the hands dont cross atall. maybe not a weave even. cool! cool

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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:its not even antispin either, its like 1 two point flower passing though the invert plane.... or sommit like that.

yeah, thats another thing, tentical is right, you can do it buzzsawed, its like an invert weave but with a uncrossed beat where normally youd wind through. but doing this makes it prety much normal spin, and the whole point of doing it the awkward way is that you get thoes pretty antispin cricles happening.

t wave

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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:actually (cigretts and thinking = good) you can antispin it, but you have to take the buzzsaw in a circle further away from you and the outside poi, thats the anti-spin movement, the other way is just a broken down weave.... i think, lol. ubbloco

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Rev
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Posted:I think this is all relative to how you look at it..

tomato, tomatoe..

with that I'm done..


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spiralx
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Posted:The atom weave is just a buzzsaw weave where you split the planes so it's done with one wheel, one wall instead of both wheel. And the buzzsaw weave is just an anti-spin weave.

So surely an anti-spin atom weave is just the normal weave movements in two planes?


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Rev
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Posted:see... this is whywe aren't getting anywhere... most of that is just false



a buzzsaw weave is an inverted weave.. and an atom weave is an invetered weave at 90 degree angles..



an inverted weave is an inverted weave.. it can be normal spun or ANTISPUN.. it is not just antispun...



I said I wouldnt go into this last night.. but please people.. work with me here..



start from a crosser.. with the poi spinning forward... left arm on top..

pull the left arm to the left (creating a buzzsaw like space with the right hand) and push it under back into a crosser.. this is the easiest way to learn antispin... by exagreatting the movements in such a way as to make it appear different.. however this antispins.. why? because you are using the SAME MOTIONBS WHEN YOU DO THAT AS A REVERSE WEAVE (caps for emphasis not anger)





here watch.. take a crosser with the left arm on top.. WITH POI SPINNING REVERSE.. pull your left hand top.. pull your left hand across (creating a buzzsaw space with the right hand) and push the left hand under.. congrats... you just did a reverse 3bt.. edit: just thought I should clarify that thebzzsaw space mentioned in this paragraph refers to the fact that your right poi is spinnin (from bottom of cricle to top of cricle) to the left of the right hand and to the right of the left hand... I bring that up because sooooooooooo many people want to say that isnt buzzsaw.. doesnt have to be whatever.. and I'd like for those people to take a minute and spin a reverse buzzsaw with the right hand.. and look at the placement of the poi from bottom of circle to top of circle.. yes I understand that normal spinning you don't notice these things.. but I think antispin should not be looked as something that uses this onyl so much as reshaping how you look at your normal weave and how -it- works.. kinda like the way same direction bf's and ttns change the way you think of threading and such.. end edit..



BEN had this spot on when he said that the normal spin does the outer half of the buzzsaw swing of the weave (like I said) and that antispin LOOKS different because it has the inner half of the buzzsaw swing of the weave..



even though the bouncing back and forth of these motionsseems to be just manipulating the buzzsaw to push poi and thus not goign against spin.. does mean that its not antispin.. IT IS... its the EXACT same as a reverse WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO motion.. with forward spin.. that is antispin... period.. in order to make ANY argument that antispin is not antispin you have to show that its not using the REVERSE hand motions.. not that it isnt moving in this way or that way or the other..



so yes you can antispin ANYTHING you can normal spin.. its just harder to notice for base spin things like a butterfly, buzzsaw, or 2bt weave.. where the hand motions are so trivial that you cna't begin to notice the fraction of a hand placement difference.. (whihc consequently is why some people don't notice the antispin ttn.. because of the suttle change in the hand motions when just antispinning a bf)



I said several times I wasnt going to waste my time and go into this AGAIN.. but I'll be damned if I'm going to be accused of hoarding info while peopel stay so confused..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1098980146)


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tenticle
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Posted:A buzzsaw weave is not an inverted weave... an inverted weave is an inverted weave.
if you do anti spin 3bt to emphasise the buzzsaw, you get what i first called a buzzsaw weave a couple of years ago when i was trying to do a weave that weaves between the buzzsaw and the outside, it wasn't until anti spin turned up here that i realized they are the same thing, and anti spin is by far the better name, as it describes the group of antispin transitions, rather than just one.
that 'buzzsaw weave' was also used to describe inverted weaves is another case of different people calling things by different names... such as cross-arm buzzsaw, which is the name i first used for inverted weaves, also a couple of years ago.
so antispin definatly exists. but it's also been a buzzsaw weave.

And an atom weave isn't an anti spin with the planes crossed, that's an anti spin atom weave (or what could be called an atom buzzsaw weave) and it's closer to a ttn than a weave, but there is a regular atom weave in there also...

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:Inever said atom was a antispin weave I was just saying it could be antispun.. so forgive me if that was directed at someone else..



and I'm sorry about my confusion on buzzsaw weave.. but EVERYTIME I've ever heard it has been in reference to the inverted weaves.. which is why arashi went on the rant about inverted being a more propername than buzzsaw saw.. because for one they aren't really buzzsaw'd the planes are over lapped like an inversion.



and while i have you clearly explaining things in a way that i understand..



what the hell is this "is the same as if someone held your hands while you did a ..."

I tried that.. and didnt get anywhere close to what you were talking about.. because i couldnt follow what you were saying with trying to imaigne it.. so I got someone to do it with me.. and dont' understand at all..


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Posted:hmm... worked when i tried it. need to find a spinner who can anti spin and i'll try again, then i'll write a better desription. might have only worked for 2bt but i'm sure i got a 3. find someone who can do a forwards left over right 2bt, and you hold their hands and do a reverse anti left under right, that should work. might take a bit of practice.

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:ok.. I guess my confusion comes in when I say my partner does a 3bt forward spin weave.. I get a reverse 3bt weave as my motions... nothing antispins ebcause hand motions and poi motions are the same direction...



hence why I'm confused..





now if someone does forward antispin I get reverse antispin.. but the thing is.. by the way you described I get my antispin onthe wrong sides.. so it comes out normal.. if that makes any sense..


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Posted:got it... (at least, a 2bt anyway)
the person expecting to anti spin should start with their arms crossed, person expecting to normal spin starts uncrossed.
so that's left hand to left hand, right hand to right hand. then it works for a bit then it's left poi to my nose, right poi to partners nuts. looks terrible. although the person i tried it with wouldn't know, cos the only way we got it to work was if they closed their eyes so they didn.t get confused (or indeed any warning of the impending sack tap.)

--ben


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Ok I tried that with a 3bt weave.. and I run into problems..
1- it twists my arms like 5bt antispin..
2- my poi are going the same direction as my twist.. so it still results in same direction spin..

the only way that I can get my hand to do the opposite motions of the spin, is to have them do the opposite motions to the spin..

same direction spin and same direction motions result in mirrored same directions spin with mirrored same direction motions.. the crossing of the arms only adds a leve of twist.. it doesnt change the direction of anything..

confused2


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