Forums > Social Discussion > difficult dilemma of race
Login/Join to Participateaddict
508 posts
Location: manchester, uk
508 posts
Location: manchester, uk
Posted:
Two or three years ago hospital in Sheffield hit the headlines when it took organs from a man who had specified that he would ONLY be a donor on the condition that his organs would go to someone of the same race as him. He was white, extremely racist and wanted his organs to go to white people only.
People in general were outraged that the hospital and doctors in question had chosen to accept such conditions. And so was I, at first. The doctor in question said he absolutely did not condone racism of any kind, and was only thinking of the many people that the organs would help.
I have been mulling this over in my head ever since and haven't been able to come to a satisfactory solution at all.
It is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to allow ANYONE to specify that yes, their organs can be allowed to help this person, but not that one because I hate them because they are not my colour.
Yet at the same time, it is ALSO VERY WRONG to let innocent people die and those potential life saving organs to go to waste for the sake of a principal, EVEN one so sacred to me as racism being abhorrent. The people waiting for the organs aren't the gulity ones, why should they be punished? I have given this a lot of thought and the conclusion I keep coming to again and again is that yes, given no other choice, a doctor is right to accept such horrible bigotry so that their patients can benefit, but I do not accept racism in ANY part of my life whatsoever so this conclusion is not sitting pretty with me AT ALL, and make me very uncomfortable. Any thoughts you might have on this matter would be much appreciated thanks.
Racism is wrong, organ donation is good. Assume those two things and we won't get off topic too much. I'm very much looking forward to any comments you all might care to make.
Two or three years ago hospital in Sheffield hit the headlines when it took organs from a man who had specified that he would ONLY be a donor on the condition that his organs would go to someone of the same race as him. He was white, extremely racist and wanted his organs to go to white people only.
People in general were outraged that the hospital and doctors in question had chosen to accept such conditions. And so was I, at first. The doctor in question said he absolutely did not condone racism of any kind, and was only thinking of the many people that the organs would help.
I have been mulling this over in my head ever since and haven't been able to come to a satisfactory solution at all.
It is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to allow ANYONE to specify that yes, their organs can be allowed to help this person, but not that one because I hate them because they are not my colour.
Yet at the same time, it is ALSO VERY WRONG to let innocent people die and those potential life saving organs to go to waste for the sake of a principal, EVEN one so sacred to me as racism being abhorrent. The people waiting for the organs aren't the gulity ones, why should they be punished? I have given this a lot of thought and the conclusion I keep coming to again and again is that yes, given no other choice, a doctor is right to accept such horrible bigotry so that their patients can benefit, but I do not accept racism in ANY part of my life whatsoever so this conclusion is not sitting pretty with me AT ALL, and make me very uncomfortable. Any thoughts you might have on this matter would be much appreciated thanks.
Racism is wrong, organ donation is good. Assume those two things and we won't get off topic too much. I'm very much looking forward to any comments you all might care to make.
It's smashing to be back x
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
My thoughts are that this was probably handled the best way it could be. Unfortunately we live in a flawed world and we have to accept that less than ideal solutions have to be found at times.
Politically there was a lot more to the doctor's decision than just that patient and those organs. To not accept the organs would have been a waste of organs but if word had got out there would have been many people dismayed that a bigot had caused people to be denied treatment.
If he'd taken the organs and used them on anyone regardless of race there would have been a large enough group of people who would react strongly to a doctor not respecting a patient's wishes in death. This would have damaged confidence the whole organ donor scheme.
Any way it went, the paper's could make an 'outrage at...!' story out ot if - that's what they do. The chosen option was the least politically damaging.
My thoughts are that this was probably handled the best way it could be. Unfortunately we live in a flawed world and we have to accept that less than ideal solutions have to be found at times.
Politically there was a lot more to the doctor's decision than just that patient and those organs. To not accept the organs would have been a waste of organs but if word had got out there would have been many people dismayed that a bigot had caused people to be denied treatment.
If he'd taken the organs and used them on anyone regardless of race there would have been a large enough group of people who would react strongly to a doctor not respecting a patient's wishes in death. This would have damaged confidence the whole organ donor scheme.
Any way it went, the paper's could make an 'outrage at...!' story out ot if - that's what they do. The chosen option was the least politically damaging.
GOLD Member
veteran
1,459 posts
Location: Dublin, Ireland
veteran
1,459 posts
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posted:
i didn't think white donor's organs are used for black people anyway (and vice versa) though correct me if i'm wrong
i remember reading something about the higher chances of transplant success when both donor and recipient are from the same ethnic background.
i didn't think white donor's organs are used for black people anyway (and vice versa) though correct me if i'm wrong
i remember reading something about the higher chances of transplant success when both donor and recipient are from the same ethnic background.
My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely 
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think Dom made a good point when he chose the word "political". Because a Doctor is a doctor, and if a doctor can save a life they should. I think it was right to accept the organs, even with the conditions imposed.
If someone is dying and someone can help them, I don't think it's a question of the beliefs and morals of either person. Clearly this racist guy didn't see it that way, but I think the doctor would have.
If you need organs and some idiot is offering his, then there isn't a choice. It's not as if they'd be sitting on a shelf waiting to be used because of his conditions - people of all races need organs all the time.
It is a very difficult subject, however!I don't think the doctor was condoning racism by accepting the organs, however. He was simply ignoring it to an extent in order to serve a greater good than his taking issue at it would have caused.
I think Dom made a good point when he chose the word "political". Because a Doctor is a doctor, and if a doctor can save a life they should. I think it was right to accept the organs, even with the conditions imposed.
If someone is dying and someone can help them, I don't think it's a question of the beliefs and morals of either person. Clearly this racist guy didn't see it that way, but I think the doctor would have.
If you need organs and some idiot is offering his, then there isn't a choice. It's not as if they'd be sitting on a shelf waiting to be used because of his conditions - people of all races need organs all the time.
It is a very difficult subject, however!I don't think the doctor was condoning racism by accepting the organs, however. He was simply ignoring it to an extent in order to serve a greater good than his taking issue at it would have caused.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
Hop's Kitten Jester.
1,803 posts
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Australia
1,803 posts
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Australia
Posted:
I hate racism. I hate people who pick on one race. It really annoys me. However, as it was this guys wish that his organs be donated to someone white maybe it should be done. I'm not saying its a good thing. Because its not and someone really needs those organs. This is hard to put without sounds like a racist cow.
I am scum
Personally, i would have liked to give this guy a boot up the a** because hes mean. And i wouldnt want his crappy organs anyway.
I hate racism. I hate people who pick on one race. It really annoys me. However, as it was this guys wish that his organs be donated to someone white maybe it should be done. I'm not saying its a good thing. Because its not and someone really needs those organs. This is hard to put without sounds like a racist cow.
I am scum
Personally, i would have liked to give this guy a boot up the a** because hes mean. And i wouldnt want his crappy organs anyway.
.:Pink Exocutioner:.
I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...
Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
or maybe there could be another way of going about it - like taking the organs but inflicting some penalty for him being and arse. maybe they could get him on some anti-racist law or something?
I don't know, just an idea.
or maybe there could be another way of going about it - like taking the organs but inflicting some penalty for him being and arse. maybe they could get him on some anti-racist law or something?
I don't know, just an idea.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
what?
surely its more dependant on the blood type for compatability that anything else????
Written by: Fabergé
i didn't think white donor's organs are used for black people anyway (and vice versa) though correct me if i'm wrong
i remember reading something about the higher chances of transplant success when both donor and recipient are from the same ethnic background.
what?
surely its more dependant on the blood type for compatability that anything else???? "Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
It is not a doctor's job to impose values on others.
The dilemma is to say that we cannot accept the organs under the conditions stated, or to accept them and save a life.
I think I'd accept them. Although if I had an acceptor of a different race, I'd work DAMNED hard to find a loophole.
It is not a doctor's job to impose values on others.
The dilemma is to say that we cannot accept the organs under the conditions stated, or to accept them and save a life.
I think I'd accept them. Although if I had an acceptor of a different race, I'd work DAMNED hard to find a loophole.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
I agree with what the doctors done.
I also agree that the man who donated them was evil and racist, but at least he did donate his organs, and was prepared to save a life (be it only one of his own race though).
I agree with what the doctors done.
I also agree that the man who donated them was evil and racist, but at least he did donate his organs, and was prepared to save a life (be it only one of his own race though).
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
addict
508 posts
Location: manchester, uk
508 posts
Location: manchester, uk
Posted:
you've all more or less so far said things i agree with on the whole, its just it sits horribly with me to allow such horribly blatant racism when in almost every other aspect of life we manage to jump on it if it rears its ugly head to high.In answer to Fab i think organ donation is more to do with something called tissue typing than blood groups, and its a tad more complicated than blood grouping, hence the odds against finding a donor if you're ill, but it most definately is possible to transplant organs of different races into each other.
(We still doing the naked buck house thing gal? pm me if so!)
you've all more or less so far said things i agree with on the whole, its just it sits horribly with me to allow such horribly blatant racism when in almost every other aspect of life we manage to jump on it if it rears its ugly head to high.In answer to Fab i think organ donation is more to do with something called tissue typing than blood groups, and its a tad more complicated than blood grouping, hence the odds against finding a donor if you're ill, but it most definately is possible to transplant organs of different races into each other.
(We still doing the naked buck house thing gal? pm me if so!)
It's smashing to be back x
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
You can't be racist if you're dead... so life must always take top priority over morals.
With any luck, the organs of that racist guy were transplanted into a person who helps black communities
You can't be racist if you're dead... so life must always take top priority over morals.
With any luck, the organs of that racist guy were transplanted into a person who helps black communities
Getting to the other side 
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
Maybe the death penalty?
Written by: Tao Star
or maybe there could be another way of going about it - like taking the organs but inflicting some penalty for him being and arse. maybe they could get him on some anti-racist law or something?
I don't know, just an idea.
Maybe the death penalty?
activist for HoPper liberation.
1,643 posts
Location: ffidrac
1,643 posts
Location: ffidrac
Posted:
I agree that it was the absolutely best decision for the doctors to make. They don't have time to sit there arguing about politics with someone at death's door... two people at death's door. It's much better to just get on with it and not to make a big deal about it, I really hope that the 'outrage' won't lead to a vicious circle and affect more people to include politics in this decision. A decision which is basically one of utterly human compassion.
I agree that it was the absolutely best decision for the doctors to make. They don't have time to sit there arguing about politics with someone at death's door... two people at death's door. It's much better to just get on with it and not to make a big deal about it, I really hope that the 'outrage' won't lead to a vicious circle and affect more people to include politics in this decision. A decision which is basically one of utterly human compassion.
Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006
if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.
Internet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
Posted:
racism is a terrifying thing. It seperates us as a whole people.
In my school, full of rich little spoilt kids, they are so racist its actually sickening. As soon as someone brings it up I have to leave before I lash out at someone. Not very tolerant, I know but is that wrong? There are people who live in fulham who are, and I quote, "afraid to leave my house because I got mugged once". Its crap really. Ive only been mugged twice, with no serious losses, and not much pain. I dont hate the people that did it, nor there race. It wouldnt have bothered me if they were differntly colored from me.
ANyway, back on topic, The man who made this specification was wrong in what he did, but the doctor following these wishes to save a life dosn't make any difference, because every single life, no matter what is sacred.
So its like andy said. Racism BAD, Saving Lives GOOD.
racism is a terrifying thing. It seperates us as a whole people.
In my school, full of rich little spoilt kids, they are so racist its actually sickening. As soon as someone brings it up I have to leave before I lash out at someone. Not very tolerant, I know but is that wrong? There are people who live in fulham who are, and I quote, "afraid to leave my house because I got mugged once". Its crap really. Ive only been mugged twice, with no serious losses, and not much pain. I dont hate the people that did it, nor there race. It wouldnt have bothered me if they were differntly colored from me.
ANyway, back on topic, The man who made this specification was wrong in what he did, but the doctor following these wishes to save a life dosn't make any difference, because every single life, no matter what is sacred.
So its like andy said. Racism BAD, Saving Lives GOOD.
The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
Maybe a little off topic, but relevent perhaps.
Are phrases such as "a celebration of ethnic origin" simply euphamisms? Why are the MOBO awards not considered racist when they are for music of black origin? Why is it regarded as being almost a sin to be proud of being white?
It's very much a grey area and gets murkier the more you think about it.
Maybe a little off topic, but relevent perhaps.
Are phrases such as "a celebration of ethnic origin" simply euphamisms? Why are the MOBO awards not considered racist when they are for music of black origin? Why is it regarded as being almost a sin to be proud of being white?
It's very much a grey area and gets murkier the more you think about it.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
I was actually going to make a thread poseing basicly the same question, but thenI started doing various other things instead and forgot about it.
Personally, I think a witch hunt has been made out of fighting racism. A witch hunt that probably makes it impossible to express "white pride" without negative connotations, and a witch hunt that makes pointing out forms or racism not perpetuated by white people fall on death ears.
I was actually going to make a thread poseing basicly the same question, but thenI started doing various other things instead and forgot about it.
Personally, I think a witch hunt has been made out of fighting racism. A witch hunt that probably makes it impossible to express "white pride" without negative connotations, and a witch hunt that makes pointing out forms or racism not perpetuated by white people fall on death ears.
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
i guess becuase the mobo awards aren#'t stying that black music is better than other types, or that white people are scum - they're just celebrating what they like.
it's only racism if it's derogatory.
Written by: Eera
Maybe a little off topic, but relevent perhaps.
Are phrases such as "a celebration of ethnic origin" simply euphamisms? Why are the MOBO awards not considered racist when they are for music of black origin? Why is it regarded as being almost a sin to be proud of being white?
It's very much a grey area and gets murkier the more you think about it.
i guess becuase the mobo awards aren#'t stying that black music is better than other types, or that white people are scum - they're just celebrating what they like.
it's only racism if it's derogatory.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
not a stranger
558 posts
Location: wales
558 posts
Location: wales
Posted:
I do not advocate racism in any form.
However, with the organ thing. If my kid/bloke/brother/friend was ill, like with heart problems or whatever I would like to specify that my organs were used to fix the person who I cared about, rather than a stranger.
However I cannot. They apparently will not consider those conditions for organ donors.
It's a strange and curious world.
I do not advocate racism in any form.
However, with the organ thing. If my kid/bloke/brother/friend was ill, like with heart problems or whatever I would like to specify that my organs were used to fix the person who I cared about, rather than a stranger.
However I cannot. They apparently will not consider those conditions for organ donors.
It's a strange and curious world.
Eat when you're hungry
Sleep where it's dry
No one is ever what they seem
Gabriel King - The Wild Road
SILVER Member
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland
Posted:
T-shirt saying "black power"= applause
T-shirt saying "white power"= getting spit on in the street
T-shirt saying "black power"= applause
T-shirt saying "white power"= getting spit on in the street
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
Not sure what you are trying to say here? Other than, I hope, spitting on someone isn't a good thing? Even if they're applauding!
Written by: squarefish
T-shirt saying "black power"= applause
T-shirt saying "white power"= getting spit on in the street
Not sure what you are trying to say here? Other than, I hope, spitting on someone isn't a good thing? Even if they're applauding!
SILVER Member
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland
Posted:
Patrick,
It's a reference to a court case where the defendant (a caucasian) was accused of inciting racial hatred for wearing a t-shirt which read "white power".
The Judge threw out the case when the defendants lawyer held up a shirt that said "black power" and asked how this was any different.
This sort of ties in with what Eera and Astar were asking, with regard to whether or notevents such as MOBO are not, in their own way, somewhat racist.
One thing that I have major problems with is so-called "positive discrimination" as employed by certain institutes and companies.
This means that they must employ a certain percentage of people with so called "ethnic" background within their organisation, rather than purely on the ability to do the task at hand.
*puts on devils advocate helmet in anticipation of bashing for honest expression of opinion*
Patrick,
It's a reference to a court case where the defendant (a caucasian) was accused of inciting racial hatred for wearing a t-shirt which read "white power".
The Judge threw out the case when the defendants lawyer held up a shirt that said "black power" and asked how this was any different.
This sort of ties in with what Eera and Astar were asking, with regard to whether or notevents such as MOBO are not, in their own way, somewhat racist.
One thing that I have major problems with is so-called "positive discrimination" as employed by certain institutes and companies.
This means that they must employ a certain percentage of people with so called "ethnic" background within their organisation, rather than purely on the ability to do the task at hand.
*puts on devils advocate helmet in anticipation of bashing for honest expression of opinion*
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
Thanks for explaining your post! I really wasn't sure what you were trying to say. Do you have any info on the actual court case? I'd be interested to see how one wrong was used to justify another?
Cheers!
EDITED_BY: Patrick of the Dreaded Badgers (1098647367)
Thanks for explaining your post! I really wasn't sure what you were trying to say. Do you have any info on the actual court case? I'd be interested to see how one wrong was used to justify another?
Cheers!
EDITED_BY: Patrick of the Dreaded Badgers (1098647367)
SILVER Member
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Posted:
Yes Racism is WRONG big time
so is sexism
so is any other discrimination...
I have been teased about my colouring since I was a very small child, I am very blonde, almost albino, and I get called "ferret" "whitey" "um paleface" and worst of all people assume im a Nazi cos I have blonde hair and blue eyes... So is that racism? Am i a victim or a whiney b'stard?
Racism goes both ways. So does sexism. Any sort of so called positive discrimination, filling a quota of the workforce for example is wrong, it should be based upon ability except for disabled people who would not work because they cant see a computer screen, or cannot concentrate on the work, or cannot move about as well as a "normal" person can.
Back to topic... Use the organs on a white person, if need be, as was previously said, I also am led to believe that ethnic background (i.e. genetic similarity) is a big factor in organ donation, but the remains of the racist donor ought to be (insert damning use of corpse here, i dont want to be outed as a psycho!)
Yes Racism is WRONG big time
so is sexism
so is any other discrimination...
I have been teased about my colouring since I was a very small child, I am very blonde, almost albino, and I get called "ferret" "whitey" "um paleface" and worst of all people assume im a Nazi cos I have blonde hair and blue eyes... So is that racism? Am i a victim or a whiney b'stard?
Racism goes both ways. So does sexism. Any sort of so called positive discrimination, filling a quota of the workforce for example is wrong, it should be based upon ability except for disabled people who would not work because they cant see a computer screen, or cannot concentrate on the work, or cannot move about as well as a "normal" person can.
Back to topic... Use the organs on a white person, if need be, as was previously said, I also am led to believe that ethnic background (i.e. genetic similarity) is a big factor in organ donation, but the remains of the racist donor ought to be (insert damning use of corpse here, i dont want to be outed as a psycho!)
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
BRONZE Member
Former Raver Invader... Not sure what i am now...
284 posts
Location: Southern California, USA
Former Raver Invader... Not sure what i am now...
284 posts
Location: Southern California, USA
Posted:
i agree!
Written by: Firepoise
You can't be racist if you're dead... so life must always take top priority over morals.
With any luck, the organs of that racist guy were transplanted into a person who helps black communities
i agree!
Clean for 6 months and counting... ah yeah, that's nice.
SILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
No it is not dependent on skin colour for donor's it is all to do with blood types and being a match.
No it is not dependent on skin colour for donor's it is all to do with blood types and being a match.
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
"being a match" does actually have a correlation with race.
"being a match" does actually have a correlation with race.
addict
508 posts
Location: manchester, uk
508 posts
Location: manchester, uk
Posted:
Just to clear this up, an organ donor and recipient being of the same race CAN help with finding a match but is by no means a prerequisite. If it was this whole thread would be pointess. See here for more details, from which the follwing is quoted....
Q. Does the colour of my skin make a difference?
A.No. However, organs are matched by blood group and tissue type and the better the match, the greater the chance of a successful outcome. Patients from the same ethnic group are more likely to be a close match. A few people with rare tissue types may only be able to receive an organ from someone of the same ethnic origin, so it is important that people from all ethnic backgrounds donate organs.
Successful transplants are carried out between people from different ethnic groups wherever the matching criteria are met.
Later on in the same page comes..........
Q. Can I agree to donate to some people and not to others?
A.No. Organs and tissue cannot be accepted unless they are freely donated. No conditions can be attached in terms of potential recipients. The only restriction allowed is which organs or tissue are to be donated.
Written by: Astar
"being a match" does actually have a correlation with race.
Just to clear this up, an organ donor and recipient being of the same race CAN help with finding a match but is by no means a prerequisite. If it was this whole thread would be pointess. See here for more details, from which the follwing is quoted....
Q. Does the colour of my skin make a difference?
A.No. However, organs are matched by blood group and tissue type and the better the match, the greater the chance of a successful outcome. Patients from the same ethnic group are more likely to be a close match. A few people with rare tissue types may only be able to receive an organ from someone of the same ethnic origin, so it is important that people from all ethnic backgrounds donate organs.
Successful transplants are carried out between people from different ethnic groups wherever the matching criteria are met.
Later on in the same page comes..........
Q. Can I agree to donate to some people and not to others?
A.No. Organs and tissue cannot be accepted unless they are freely donated. No conditions can be attached in terms of potential recipients. The only restriction allowed is which organs or tissue are to be donated.
It's smashing to be back x
© 1998 - 2024 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com