Forums > Social Discussion > Gay 'bashing' lyrics, Please read this!!!
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110 posts
110 posts
Posted:
Hi all, this is part of an e-mail i got sent to me today, i have protested against this 'rap satr' before and am due to again i think it is awful that he is even aloud to perform anything of this nature. what are your views? will you be joining 'QueerAction'?
'coming up soon, MK plays host to another 'murder-music' singer!
At a concert in Chicago in April 2002 Sizzla told the audience: “I kill sodomites and queers, they bring AIDS and disease upon people…shoot and kill them”.
many of his songs promote shooting, burning and generally not being nice to queer people! :o(
A new yahoo group has been set up! Please visit "Queer Action":
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/queeraction
it's assumed that people joining this group will be wanting to get involved in action & lobbying - ie. not really a place to discuss the merits/pitfalls of demos or direct action.'
There will be a protest staged on the 3rd of november at the empire night club in milton keynes. if anyone would like more info feel free to call/text me on- 07952410596, or mail me at luner_nia_thomas@hotmail.com.
thanks for taking the time to read this.
L x
Hi all, this is part of an e-mail i got sent to me today, i have protested against this 'rap satr' before and am due to again i think it is awful that he is even aloud to perform anything of this nature. what are your views? will you be joining 'QueerAction'?
'coming up soon, MK plays host to another 'murder-music' singer!
At a concert in Chicago in April 2002 Sizzla told the audience: “I kill sodomites and queers, they bring AIDS and disease upon people…shoot and kill them”.
many of his songs promote shooting, burning and generally not being nice to queer people! :o(
A new yahoo group has been set up! Please visit "Queer Action":
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/queeraction
it's assumed that people joining this group will be wanting to get involved in action & lobbying - ie. not really a place to discuss the merits/pitfalls of demos or direct action.'
There will be a protest staged on the 3rd of november at the empire night club in milton keynes. if anyone would like more info feel free to call/text me on- 07952410596, or mail me at luner_nia_thomas@hotmail.com.
thanks for taking the time to read this.
L x
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Is that DJ Mk?
Is that DJ Mk?
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Is this the Reggae singer whose shows were canceled all over because of his lyrics?
I feel strongly that freedom of speech is important. What he is saying is wrong, sure. But as long as he doesn't do it, he should be allowed to say it. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that venue owners shouldn't meet STRONG public pressure to deny this guy gigs.
Is this the Reggae singer whose shows were canceled all over because of his lyrics?
I feel strongly that freedom of speech is important. What he is saying is wrong, sure. But as long as he doesn't do it, he should be allowed to say it. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that venue owners shouldn't meet STRONG public pressure to deny this guy gigs.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
lovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Posted:
well my oppinion is that you should let him sing his stuff, dont like it? offended by it? nobody is forcing you to listen to it.
people have different oppinions and they should be free to express them.
i know sizzla's attitude towards gay people, isnt exactly "nice", but you should first learn about the artist and his background and maybe you will understand how he came to his conclusions or what aspects of his believes and his life experience influenced him to say such things, before organising protests.
afterwards you will be the smarter one.
Disclaimer:
i dont believe in gays and straights, i believe in people. I couldnt care less whom you are attracted to or not. If you are positive towards me, ill be positive towards you.
well my oppinion is that you should let him sing his stuff, dont like it? offended by it? nobody is forcing you to listen to it.
people have different oppinions and they should be free to express them.
i know sizzla's attitude towards gay people, isnt exactly "nice", but you should first learn about the artist and his background and maybe you will understand how he came to his conclusions or what aspects of his believes and his life experience influenced him to say such things, before organising protests.
afterwards you will be the smarter one.
Disclaimer:
i dont believe in gays and straights, i believe in people. I couldnt care less whom you are attracted to or not. If you are positive towards me, ill be positive towards you.
"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ok, but regardless of his beliefs about gay people, he's telling people to KILL *ME* and others like me.
You want to be a raging homophobe or anti-semite, fine. It's the killing bit that makes me a bit uncomfortable about all of it.
Ok, but regardless of his beliefs about gay people, he's telling people to KILL *ME* and others like me.
You want to be a raging homophobe or anti-semite, fine. It's the killing bit that makes me a bit uncomfortable about all of it.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
110 posts
110 posts
Posted:
lightning?-is this the Reggae singer whose shows were canceled all over because of his lyrics?"
yes that would be him.
The badger...-"i know sizzla's attitude towards gay people, isnt exactly "nice", but you should first learn about the artist and his background and maybe you will understand how he came to his conclusions or what aspects of his believes and his life experience influenced him to say such things, before organising protests. afterwards you will be the smarter one."
This isnt a new thing, we have been looking at this singer for a long time, we are not just randomly taking part in demos with no information. we have even tried to talk directly to him/management about why he sings things like this but we dont seem to be getting anywhere. so we are holding demos.
UCoF-"Is that DJ Mk?"
No its not it is a guy who is known as 'sizzla'
This guy is saying to people 'kill queers' he is telling people that after the gig to go and hurt gay/les/bi people.
freedom of speech is fine but if it was a white guy sayin "lets kill all the blacks" it would get shut down straght away!
The police have begged the empire to stop this guy performing, due to the fact that he is encouraging people to kill and hurt gay people. people ARE getting hurt.
personally i think it is fine to sing about what you believe in but this is going way too far,
---just to point out i have nothing against white/black/asian/gay/bi/les etc... iam just trying to make a point of how wrong this guy really is (in my opion of course)
L x
lightning?-is this the Reggae singer whose shows were canceled all over because of his lyrics?"
yes that would be him.
The badger...-"i know sizzla's attitude towards gay people, isnt exactly "nice", but you should first learn about the artist and his background and maybe you will understand how he came to his conclusions or what aspects of his believes and his life experience influenced him to say such things, before organising protests. afterwards you will be the smarter one."
This isnt a new thing, we have been looking at this singer for a long time, we are not just randomly taking part in demos with no information. we have even tried to talk directly to him/management about why he sings things like this but we dont seem to be getting anywhere. so we are holding demos.
UCoF-"Is that DJ Mk?"
No its not it is a guy who is known as 'sizzla'
This guy is saying to people 'kill queers' he is telling people that after the gig to go and hurt gay/les/bi people.
freedom of speech is fine but if it was a white guy sayin "lets kill all the blacks" it would get shut down straght away!
The police have begged the empire to stop this guy performing, due to the fact that he is encouraging people to kill and hurt gay people. people ARE getting hurt.
personally i think it is fine to sing about what you believe in but this is going way too far,
---just to point out i have nothing against white/black/asian/gay/bi/les etc... iam just trying to make a point of how wrong this guy really is (in my opion of course)
L x
BRONZE Member
ummmmmmm.............
724 posts
Location: Rotherham, UK
ummmmmmm.............
724 posts
Location: Rotherham, UK
Posted:
Killing people because they are gay, this is the extreme now!
Why is he going so out of his way in his efforts to discriminate against gay people, his hatred must have started somewhere, it would be interesting to know what his reasons are.
There was a show on the other day interviewing a guy who used to terrorise and bully gay people, he went to all the anti-gay rallies and spent his life protesting about gay people.
Until one day he woke up to the realisation that the reason he hated them, was because they reminded him of himself, he was gay!.
Interesting thought eh?
But i doubt this guy is.........he's probably one of thousands of straight men showing how manly they are by screaming about how they hate gay people.
It actually just makes them look like utter b*£$%$*&'s!!
Killing people because they are gay, this is the extreme now!
Why is he going so out of his way in his efforts to discriminate against gay people, his hatred must have started somewhere, it would be interesting to know what his reasons are.
There was a show on the other day interviewing a guy who used to terrorise and bully gay people, he went to all the anti-gay rallies and spent his life protesting about gay people.
Until one day he woke up to the realisation that the reason he hated them, was because they reminded him of himself, he was gay!.
Interesting thought eh?
But i doubt this guy is.........he's probably one of thousands of straight men showing how manly they are by screaming about how they hate gay people.
It actually just makes them look like utter b*£$%$*&'s!!
Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realise that we
cannot eat money.
Cree Indian, 1909
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
i think the reggea dude (the one that was taken off the nominations for the mobo awards) was elephant man, john peel plays his, non homophobic stuff.. its quite good.
this guy is different i think, but its all ....... bad.
the bbc on the mobo awards - little bit at the top is relevant edit: or maybe you meant this guy and this guys another,
EDITED_BY: oli (1098305187)
i think the reggea dude (the one that was taken off the nominations for the mobo awards) was elephant man, john peel plays his, non homophobic stuff.. its quite good.
this guy is different i think, but its all ....... bad.
the bbc on the mobo awards - little bit at the top is relevant edit: or maybe you meant this guy and this guys another,
EDITED_BY: oli (1098305187)
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
There was an NPR piece on him, I believe, about a month ago.
He doesn't see he's doing anything wrong. He is just an entertainer, and that's it. His lyrics tell people to go kill homosexuals...and many (like myself) find that's irresponsible of him as an entertainer who has influence over his listeners. He doesn't see it that way. He says he'd not kill someone because killing is illegal, yet he writes songs about it.
Freedom of speech is all well and fine until someone starts treading on my rights. Preaching to people to harm homosexuals is repugnant...vile.
He and Jimmy Swaggart (a former TV Evangelical "Christian" who was caught with a prostitute) should get together. Swaggart said that if a man came on to him, he (Jimmy) would kill the homosexual and tell God he died. There was either a Reuters or AP article about that particular sermon about a month ago.
There was an NPR piece on him, I believe, about a month ago.
He doesn't see he's doing anything wrong. He is just an entertainer, and that's it. His lyrics tell people to go kill homosexuals...and many (like myself) find that's irresponsible of him as an entertainer who has influence over his listeners. He doesn't see it that way. He says he'd not kill someone because killing is illegal, yet he writes songs about it.
Freedom of speech is all well and fine until someone starts treading on my rights. Preaching to people to harm homosexuals is repugnant...vile.
He and Jimmy Swaggart (a former TV Evangelical "Christian" who was caught with a prostitute) should get together. Swaggart said that if a man came on to him, he (Jimmy) would kill the homosexual and tell God he died. There was either a Reuters or AP article about that particular sermon about a month ago.
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
you know this is such a loaded topic......on one hand you have a group of people who are trying to simply live out their lives loving who they love, and with out being persecuted against.........on the other you have a person who is excersizing his right to free speech, how ever extreme it is.........so were do we draw the line and institue censorship? now i agree that telling people to kill others based on who/how they love is FLAT WRONG, but again isnt censoring a voice wrong as well? know obviously ALL OF US have a strong opinion on this matter, even if we dont voice it here..........personaly i belive everyone should be free to love who they love with out persicution, but thats besides the point........by seting up ralleys and such to protest this man you are giving him more of a voice; people want to hear waht they are told they can not or should not, and it may be fueling his lyrics.................now in the past mounth i managed my self to piss of alot of people on this site, does this mean that my voice should be slienced? granted those i did offend were appologized too, but if hadn't would you try to silence me for my opinion? ok im done with rambeling now..........pardon all misspellings i just dont want to spell check............
p.s. this was a non-personal objective view, my opinion, well it doesn't matter, you'll make your dession of me bassed on other things..........F>F
you know this is such a loaded topic......on one hand you have a group of people who are trying to simply live out their lives loving who they love, and with out being persecuted against.........on the other you have a person who is excersizing his right to free speech, how ever extreme it is.........so were do we draw the line and institue censorship? now i agree that telling people to kill others based on who/how they love is FLAT WRONG, but again isnt censoring a voice wrong as well? know obviously ALL OF US have a strong opinion on this matter, even if we dont voice it here..........personaly i belive everyone should be free to love who they love with out persicution, but thats besides the point........by seting up ralleys and such to protest this man you are giving him more of a voice; people want to hear waht they are told they can not or should not, and it may be fueling his lyrics.................now in the past mounth i managed my self to piss of alot of people on this site, does this mean that my voice should be slienced? granted those i did offend were appologized too, but if hadn't would you try to silence me for my opinion? ok im done with rambeling now..........pardon all misspellings i just dont want to spell check............
p.s. this was a non-personal objective view, my opinion, well it doesn't matter, you'll make your dession of me bassed on other things..........F>F
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Yeah. I'm with Malcolm.
Ok, a story: When I was on my surgery rotation, I went into a patient's room one morning to round on him. He looked at my name badge and said, "Ginsberg, huh? You Jewish?"
"Yessir. I am."
"Then please don't touch me."
Without missing a beat, I said, "Of course." and left.
So I left the room and then told my resident why I was unable to round on the patient. My resident was absolutely livid, and I said, "Hey, look. I'm not taking it personally. If he wants to be a bigoted [censored], that's his problem and I'm not going to be able to talk him out of it. He wants a non-Jewish provider, we have them available, so let's just put that note in his chart and I won't see him any more." Honestly, I don't think I even felt the least bit of anger towards the gentleman. It's his problem. The resident was absolutely dumbfounded at how I could be so calm through all of this, but it's simple, really...he was no threat to me.
But this guy is a threat. He's a threat because he's saying that he would shoot people and because he's telling others to shoot people. And therein lies the big difference.
Now remove the word "gay" and replace it with "Jews." Does that ring of something that happened not even a century ago? See why I'm alarmed? My people already got marched to the gas chambers once. I'm not so keen on having it happen again.
Yeah. I'm with Malcolm.
Ok, a story: When I was on my surgery rotation, I went into a patient's room one morning to round on him. He looked at my name badge and said, "Ginsberg, huh? You Jewish?"
"Yessir. I am."
"Then please don't touch me."
Without missing a beat, I said, "Of course." and left.
So I left the room and then told my resident why I was unable to round on the patient. My resident was absolutely livid, and I said, "Hey, look. I'm not taking it personally. If he wants to be a bigoted [censored], that's his problem and I'm not going to be able to talk him out of it. He wants a non-Jewish provider, we have them available, so let's just put that note in his chart and I won't see him any more." Honestly, I don't think I even felt the least bit of anger towards the gentleman. It's his problem. The resident was absolutely dumbfounded at how I could be so calm through all of this, but it's simple, really...he was no threat to me.
But this guy is a threat. He's a threat because he's saying that he would shoot people and because he's telling others to shoot people. And therein lies the big difference.
Now remove the word "gay" and replace it with "Jews." Does that ring of something that happened not even a century ago? See why I'm alarmed? My people already got marched to the gas chambers once. I'm not so keen on having it happen again.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
Mind you, this guy isn't on the same level as Hitler.
I'm convinced part of the reason he uses the lyrics he uses is to create controversy, which, in turn creates publicity. If I recall the interview I heard correctly, he said "I'm an entertainer, nothing more. If people take my lyric seariously, that's their problem."
I disagree. As an entertainer, he has influence on people, especially young people who are easily influenced. His words influence kids who don't always know right from wrong, and while that might be the kid's problem, or the kid's parents' problem, the musician's lyrics can have a huge impact on the kid's behavior.
Mind you, this guy isn't on the same level as Hitler.
I'm convinced part of the reason he uses the lyrics he uses is to create controversy, which, in turn creates publicity. If I recall the interview I heard correctly, he said "I'm an entertainer, nothing more. If people take my lyric seariously, that's their problem."
I disagree. As an entertainer, he has influence on people, especially young people who are easily influenced. His words influence kids who don't always know right from wrong, and while that might be the kid's problem, or the kid's parents' problem, the musician's lyrics can have a huge impact on the kid's behavior.
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
SpitFire, admittedly most people know that killing is wrong. If a rap lyric can change that, then there's some serious underlying psychopathology that we really can't blame on the song.
SpitFire, admittedly most people know that killing is wrong. If a rap lyric can change that, then there's some serious underlying psychopathology that we really can't blame on the song.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
So what I'm hearing is that half of you believe:
"It's wrong that he's saying that but he should be allowed to say it"
while others here believe that:
"He should be allowed to say it, but it's wrong that he's saying it."
Sounds the same to me.
Obviously none of us are buying tickets to see this guy. Does anyone here think he should be censored? If so, by whom?
If not, you're all saying the same thing.
So what I'm hearing is that half of you believe:
"It's wrong that he's saying that but he should be allowed to say it"
while others here believe that:
"He should be allowed to say it, but it's wrong that he's saying it."
Sounds the same to me.Obviously none of us are buying tickets to see this guy. Does anyone here think he should be censored? If so, by whom?
If not, you're all saying the same thing.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
not a stranger
558 posts
Location: wales
558 posts
Location: wales
Posted:
I think the world is full of sad loonies who don't have anything better in their lives than hating people who are different from them.
However censoring their views is straying into dangerous territory. If we stop anything we don't like or don't aggree with, how long will it be before someone tries to shut us up because they don't like what we are saying.
However I believe it is a crime to make death threats.
It's a sad world sometimes.
I think the world is full of sad loonies who don't have anything better in their lives than hating people who are different from them.
However censoring their views is straying into dangerous territory. If we stop anything we don't like or don't aggree with, how long will it be before someone tries to shut us up because they don't like what we are saying.
However I believe it is a crime to make death threats.
It's a sad world sometimes.
Eat when you're hungry
Sleep where it's dry
No one is ever what they seem
Gabriel King - The Wild Road
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Freedom of speech is one thing, but inciting violence is another.
And I disagree Konsti, while nobody is forcing anyone to listen, people will and some people will us this guy’s lyrics as an excuse for violence.
Protesting and not supporting this person by buying tickets would be options.
Should he be censored? Probably, but banning people just drives them underground where they pick up a cult following.
Supporting 'QueerAction' seems like a good start. Make the guy so unpopular that no one wants anything to do with him.
Freedom of speech is one thing, but inciting violence is another.
And I disagree Konsti, while nobody is forcing anyone to listen, people will and some people will us this guy’s lyrics as an excuse for violence.
Protesting and not supporting this person by buying tickets would be options.
Should he be censored? Probably, but banning people just drives them underground where they pick up a cult following.
Supporting 'QueerAction' seems like a good start. Make the guy so unpopular that no one wants anything to do with him.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Well, NYC, so it raises a question: should we censor people who advocate murder? Nay, mass-murder?
Germany does. The Netherlands doesn't.
Should we?
I don't know.
Oh, and Malcolm, why not take your powers as a leader out for a spin? Start commanding people to buy from the shop!
EDITED_BY: Lightning? (1098327537)
Well, NYC, so it raises a question: should we censor people who advocate murder? Nay, mass-murder?
Germany does. The Netherlands doesn't.
Should we?
I don't know.
Oh, and Malcolm, why not take your powers as a leader out for a spin? Start commanding people to buy from the shop!
EDITED_BY: Lightning? (1098327537)
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
a-CHOO!
*sniff*
a-CHOO!
*sniff*
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Former Raver Invader... Not sure what i am now...
284 posts
Location: Southern California, USA
Former Raver Invader... Not sure what i am now...
284 posts
Location: Southern California, USA
Posted:
woah woah woah.... this guy is a reggae dealio and he's talkin bout killing AT ALL? Where was i when reggae went from bob marly chillin, love the world and everyone around you, kick back music, to THAT?
In my opinion, which is just my humble opinion as always, that's really messed up. As someone who believes that intolerance of anyone because of their race, gender, sexuality, occupation or anything whatsoever sprouts from pure ignorance, i think that the dude who said that is just some f&#ktard who's ... well... a f@$ktard. I do very much believe in freedom of speech but maybe we should do something about those ignorant, intolerant people.
like maybe... shoot them?
heyy... getting rid of intolerance by being intolerant of people who are intolerant... not such a bad idea after all?
woah woah woah.... this guy is a reggae dealio and he's talkin bout killing AT ALL? Where was i when reggae went from bob marly chillin, love the world and everyone around you, kick back music, to THAT?
In my opinion, which is just my humble opinion as always, that's really messed up. As someone who believes that intolerance of anyone because of their race, gender, sexuality, occupation or anything whatsoever sprouts from pure ignorance, i think that the dude who said that is just some f&#ktard who's ... well... a f@$ktard. I do very much believe in freedom of speech but maybe we should do something about those ignorant, intolerant people.
like maybe... shoot them?
heyy... getting rid of intolerance by being intolerant of people who are intolerant... not such a bad idea after all?
Clean for 6 months and counting... ah yeah, that's nice.
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
this is a really siilar discussion to the debate about the laws about inciting racial hatred.
no one seems to have an answer and i'm not really sure what i think either - we have free speech in this country and it does mean that people can say things like this. when does it become right to censor someone for the good of others e.g. a minority group, and if you do make laws about what people can say, how can you ensure that the law is used in the right way anyway?
for example if you made a law saying that people couldn't say bad things about a religion (to be very simplistic) how do you majke sure that the 'murdering fuckhead religion' didn't sue everyone to death who said that they thought murdering people was wrong?
and another point to this is, do we really want to stop debate on these subjects, and by saying we don't want a particular musician to get gigs, not only are we censoring his right to express his ideas and thoughts, but we are also sending the whole movement of people who agree with him undergound and banning any public debate of WHY what he believes is wrong or right.
You might be able to shut people up, but in doing so you are not changing their belief or educating anyone - you are merely papering over the problem.
this is a really siilar discussion to the debate about the laws about inciting racial hatred.
no one seems to have an answer and i'm not really sure what i think either - we have free speech in this country and it does mean that people can say things like this. when does it become right to censor someone for the good of others e.g. a minority group, and if you do make laws about what people can say, how can you ensure that the law is used in the right way anyway?
for example if you made a law saying that people couldn't say bad things about a religion (to be very simplistic) how do you majke sure that the 'murdering fuckhead religion' didn't sue everyone to death who said that they thought murdering people was wrong?
and another point to this is, do we really want to stop debate on these subjects, and by saying we don't want a particular musician to get gigs, not only are we censoring his right to express his ideas and thoughts, but we are also sending the whole movement of people who agree with him undergound and banning any public debate of WHY what he believes is wrong or right.
You might be able to shut people up, but in doing so you are not changing their belief or educating anyone - you are merely papering over the problem.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
On the one hand, I have to wonder if these lyrics would really turn anyone into a gay-bashing murderer. I mean, in spite of popular media, song lyrics do NOT cause violence. They can incite it in someone with severe underlying pathology, but think about it logically: how many psychiatrically normal people are going to haul off and kill someone just because some rapper says so? Zero.
However, does this provide a nexus for a gathering of a bunch of potential homocidal psychopaths?
I don't know.
On the one hand, I have to wonder if these lyrics would really turn anyone into a gay-bashing murderer. I mean, in spite of popular media, song lyrics do NOT cause violence. They can incite it in someone with severe underlying pathology, but think about it logically: how many psychiatrically normal people are going to haul off and kill someone just because some rapper says so? Zero.
However, does this provide a nexus for a gathering of a bunch of potential homocidal psychopaths?
I don't know.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
NYC and Tao have both nailed it on the head......we are all saying about he same thing (NYC) and, no one has ans answer (Tao)........i have read every post on hear and its just going round and round with no definate desision on what is the right thing to do? (people are going to hate me for this one but) maby there is no right answer to this, considering it comes down to freedom of speach vs censorship vs music artists responsibility, perhapse this is one of thoose things you have to agree to disagree on and do what you can to leave it at that.......granted if this guys lyrics sudenly start and out break of violence then something should be done immediatly, but its like eminm's lyrics when they first came out, now yes he just talked about killing is girl friend kim or his mother, not an entire demographic of people, but it was still talking about killing................i dont know like i said before, everyone has some kind of very strong opinion on this, and it gets dangerous on both sides, cause while this guy is talking about killg the gay community, im sure some were in this world (not on this site) that feels the exact oposite.........for every action, a reaction, for every positve a negative, for every light there is dark, its universal law.............or im a bigger dork than i thought.........
NYC and Tao have both nailed it on the head......we are all saying about he same thing (NYC) and, no one has ans answer (Tao)........i have read every post on hear and its just going round and round with no definate desision on what is the right thing to do? (people are going to hate me for this one but) maby there is no right answer to this, considering it comes down to freedom of speach vs censorship vs music artists responsibility, perhapse this is one of thoose things you have to agree to disagree on and do what you can to leave it at that.......granted if this guys lyrics sudenly start and out break of violence then something should be done immediatly, but its like eminm's lyrics when they first came out, now yes he just talked about killing is girl friend kim or his mother, not an entire demographic of people, but it was still talking about killing................i dont know like i said before, everyone has some kind of very strong opinion on this, and it gets dangerous on both sides, cause while this guy is talking about killg the gay community, im sure some were in this world (not on this site) that feels the exact oposite.........for every action, a reaction, for every positve a negative, for every light there is dark, its universal law.............or im a bigger dork than i thought.........
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
How is this more outrageous then the plethora of music that seemingly advocates/promotes suicide? Or ganster rap?
Assumeing music can alter behaviour, there's a lot of music out their which is altering peoples behaviour in equally abhorable ways.
I think the truth is, music just reflects the attitudes of those that listen to it. The market dictates what music makes it big based on what kind of attitudes/beliefs/emotions/tastes are predominant amongst the populace. What is outrageous to me is that this guy get's an audience, and that gangster rap gets an audience. "suicide" music I can understand, because it can be very soothing for those who are depressed and is actually a copeing skill for many.
But listening to hate music is just a disgusting wallow in self indulgance.
I think the solution for stuff like this is mockery honestly.
It seems iconic comedians/comic writers mocking disgusting aspects of society has a very profound aspect in changeing society.
Maybe if the family guy did an episode makeing fun of this idiot and his fans, and the daily show, mad tv, and southpark followed suit. he would be effectivly derailed.
really, no one makes fun of racism or homophobia because it's to sensitive, and that really bugs me. I think the most sensitive social issues need the most attention of good comedians.
How is this more outrageous then the plethora of music that seemingly advocates/promotes suicide? Or ganster rap?
Assumeing music can alter behaviour, there's a lot of music out their which is altering peoples behaviour in equally abhorable ways.
I think the truth is, music just reflects the attitudes of those that listen to it. The market dictates what music makes it big based on what kind of attitudes/beliefs/emotions/tastes are predominant amongst the populace. What is outrageous to me is that this guy get's an audience, and that gangster rap gets an audience. "suicide" music I can understand, because it can be very soothing for those who are depressed and is actually a copeing skill for many.
But listening to hate music is just a disgusting wallow in self indulgance.
I think the solution for stuff like this is mockery honestly.
It seems iconic comedians/comic writers mocking disgusting aspects of society has a very profound aspect in changeing society.
Maybe if the family guy did an episode makeing fun of this idiot and his fans, and the daily show, mad tv, and southpark followed suit. he would be effectivly derailed.
really, no one makes fun of racism or homophobia because it's to sensitive, and that really bugs me. I think the most sensitive social issues need the most attention of good comedians.
Internet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
Posted:
Wrong. THats what it is. People shud have far more responsibliity that just to say its not my prob.
I cant even think what i shud type. Im just speechless. MAn thats wrong. That angers me. lots. I am glad th police are involving themselves in the banning of this character, but why oh why arnt other people of high ranking, like poloticians or whateva. I know its not that simple... but why isn't it? Why do we have so many flaws in order to hate other people for what they find as flaws just cos there different.
Wrong. THats what it is. People shud have far more responsibliity that just to say its not my prob.
I cant even think what i shud type. Im just speechless. MAn thats wrong. That angers me. lots. I am glad th police are involving themselves in the banning of this character, but why oh why arnt other people of high ranking, like poloticians or whateva. I know its not that simple... but why isn't it? Why do we have so many flaws in order to hate other people for what they find as flaws just cos there different.
The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."
member
110 posts
110 posts
Posted:
Thanks for all of your feedback, its nice to see what you all think on this. if anyone is intersted in the demo, feel free to contact me for info.
L x
Thanks for all of your feedback, its nice to see what you all think on this. if anyone is intersted in the demo, feel free to contact me for info.
L x
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
but i don't think we can afford to think like that - these laws that are being discussed now will be in place sometime in the not too distant future, and included in them will be a definition of what could 'ncite racial hatred'. things will actually be banned, people will have already made the decision. that's why it's so important that we work out how importan our freedom is to us, and what we mean by freedom (expression vs safety i guess).
how safe do you want to be? i don't want to get beaten up by people who are homophobic, but i also want to be able to have discussions about my sexuality without being banged up for inciting hatred against straight people.
it's a difficult subject, and there is no easy answer, but the point is we will have to make this decision sometime or someone else who doesn't even know who we are will make it for us.
but i don't think we can afford to think like that - these laws that are being discussed now will be in place sometime in the not too distant future, and included in them will be a definition of what could 'ncite racial hatred'. things will actually be banned, people will have already made the decision. that's why it's so important that we work out how importan our freedom is to us, and what we mean by freedom (expression vs safety i guess).
how safe do you want to be? i don't want to get beaten up by people who are homophobic, but i also want to be able to have discussions about my sexuality without being banged up for inciting hatred against straight people.
it's a difficult subject, and there is no easy answer, but the point is we will have to make this decision sometime or someone else who doesn't even know who we are will make it for us.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
lord high king of swingers *(now defunct)**(but will rise again ! !)*
165 posts
Location: wild wiltshire
165 posts
Location: wild wiltshire
Posted:
Whaap whaa wha ! Goddam batty hating mutha frumpers ! To me reggae is one of the most concious musics around, listen to roots rastas chanting for peace, ska gods parping about being happy, its ace. Even the majority of dancehall is humorous, light hearted fun stuff.
And it's gutting when Sizzla and co step up and scream war against the wicked sodomites, it's tragic that in parts of jamaica this actually leads to gay people having acid thrown in theire faces. These ragga stars are like u.s gangsta rap stars, kill gays : kill cops : look tough n' stuff !!!
The only answer to me would be don't buy there music and support concious artists wherever possible ,music could just be one of the answers to the worlds many problems ! Personally would love to start a reggae band, so any musicians out there who wanna do the reggae thing in the sydney area, lets rock !
xxx
luv u all
Whaap whaa wha ! Goddam batty hating mutha frumpers ! To me reggae is one of the most concious musics around, listen to roots rastas chanting for peace, ska gods parping about being happy, its ace. Even the majority of dancehall is humorous, light hearted fun stuff.
And it's gutting when Sizzla and co step up and scream war against the wicked sodomites, it's tragic that in parts of jamaica this actually leads to gay people having acid thrown in theire faces. These ragga stars are like u.s gangsta rap stars, kill gays : kill cops : look tough n' stuff !!!
The only answer to me would be don't buy there music and support concious artists wherever possible ,music could just be one of the answers to the worlds many problems ! Personally would love to start a reggae band, so any musicians out there who wanna do the reggae thing in the sydney area, lets rock !
xxx
luv u all
fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!
Here again gone again
157 posts
Location: Central London
157 posts
Location: Central London
Posted:
There's a saying: "Freedom of speech doesn't include the right to yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre".
What it means is that you have a responsibility to exercise your right to free speech in a responsible manner. For instance, shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre could lead to people getting hurt or killed in the panic it would cause.
If you are a celebrity, that responsibility should weigh on you more heavily, because your voice will be heard by more people, many of whom will already admire you and respect your opinions to some extent.
This man is apparently lacking in responsibility, and there lies the justification for censoring him. If he was a responsible human being, he wouldn't be inciting others to commit acts of violence against anyone - regardless of their sexuality - and no such censorship would be required.
In response to the point that someone wouldn't commit those acts of violence unless they were already that way inclined, I think that's ignoring the issues of mob psychology and (perceived) peer group pressure. A person may be a perfectly rational human being, and yet a large group of those same people can be a vicious and easily manipulated pack of animals. When you're surrounded by a mob full of anger and hatred, it could be pretty dangerous to tell that mob that what they're doing is wrong, and that you don't want to take part in it.
I seem to recall reading more than one story about racial attacks where some of the attackers caught were 'just going along with their mates' - more in fear of those friends than in hatred of the victim. There are plenty of people out there who are easily led into bad actions by someone with a strong personality - that doesn't mean that they're innately bad people.
There's a saying: "Freedom of speech doesn't include the right to yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre".
What it means is that you have a responsibility to exercise your right to free speech in a responsible manner. For instance, shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre could lead to people getting hurt or killed in the panic it would cause.
If you are a celebrity, that responsibility should weigh on you more heavily, because your voice will be heard by more people, many of whom will already admire you and respect your opinions to some extent.
This man is apparently lacking in responsibility, and there lies the justification for censoring him. If he was a responsible human being, he wouldn't be inciting others to commit acts of violence against anyone - regardless of their sexuality - and no such censorship would be required.
In response to the point that someone wouldn't commit those acts of violence unless they were already that way inclined, I think that's ignoring the issues of mob psychology and (perceived) peer group pressure. A person may be a perfectly rational human being, and yet a large group of those same people can be a vicious and easily manipulated pack of animals. When you're surrounded by a mob full of anger and hatred, it could be pretty dangerous to tell that mob that what they're doing is wrong, and that you don't want to take part in it.
I seem to recall reading more than one story about racial attacks where some of the attackers caught were 'just going along with their mates' - more in fear of those friends than in hatred of the victim. There are plenty of people out there who are easily led into bad actions by someone with a strong personality - that doesn't mean that they're innately bad people.
"Talk hard"
lord high king of swingers *(now defunct)**(but will rise again ! !)*
165 posts
Location: wild wiltshire
165 posts
Location: wild wiltshire
Posted:
and remember sir sizzla has to be anti gay in his section of dancehall or else all his mates would laugh at him !
and remember sir sizzla has to be anti gay in his section of dancehall or else all his mates would laugh at him !
fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
Denny, whilst i agree with everything you have just said, there's another side to the freedom of speech coin and that is that censoring one person, no matter how right that decision may be, sets a precedent for censoring anyone else.
if we decide his lyrics are offensive, maybe someone else with a completely different point of view will decide that someone's political or religious lyrics are offensive. and once it has been ok for us to censor one person, how can we say it's not ok for someone else to do it?
this is the point where freedom of sppech becomes so important, because your right to censor someone = their right to censor you.
Denny, whilst i agree with everything you have just said, there's another side to the freedom of speech coin and that is that censoring one person, no matter how right that decision may be, sets a precedent for censoring anyone else.
if we decide his lyrics are offensive, maybe someone else with a completely different point of view will decide that someone's political or religious lyrics are offensive. and once it has been ok for us to censor one person, how can we say it's not ok for someone else to do it?
this is the point where freedom of sppech becomes so important, because your right to censor someone = their right to censor you.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Good post Denny; people are like sheep and very easily led, especially in large groups.
Tao Star, it's already the case that some things are censored,so it's not like this would set a precedent. Isn't it more about positioning a line that determines what is acceptable?
In which case, many may feel that actively promoting violence to large mobs of people falls on the wrong side of that line.
Good post Denny; people are like sheep and very easily led, especially in large groups.
Tao Star, it's already the case that some things are censored,so it's not like this would set a precedent. Isn't it more about positioning a line that determines what is acceptable?
In which case, many may feel that actively promoting violence to large mobs of people falls on the wrong side of that line.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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