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Forums > Social Discussion > Music Copying & Sharing / Right or Wrong?

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Ok, well I tried a search, but putting "Music" into the search engine comes up with loads (and loads) or "What music do you listen to" threads. So forgive me if this has been discussed before.

What are peoples views on copying CD's and file sharing?
Most of us here would call ourselves "Music Lovers" and would also call ourselves fair, honest people. Yet when it comes down to it, copying/downloading music is both dishonest (illegal) and harms the music industry which makes the music we love.

Do morals go out the window when we can get something for free?

Now, I'm not against file sharing - I think it's a great idea, especially when you look at the idea behing the original Naptser (which i believe stoped for something link New Artists Support Program) where new, un-signed bands could get their music to thousands of people. I freely admit to having downloaded songs, occasionally whole albums - but I maintain, that even if I've downloaded an entire album, if I like it, I'll go out an buy it. Likewise, if I really enjoy a couple of songs from a band I've downloaded - I'll go out and buy their album.

Where file sharing is great is getting hold of rarities - live stuff (Fantastic live Placebo album "Cabaret of Desire" which isn't an offical album) or hard-to-find rarities/b-sides.

But what narks me, is "music lovers" who will go on-and-on about how they love this band, have all thier albums - yet they haven't ever bought one of their CDs. They'll give all kind of excuses, usually either "CDs are too expensive" or "everyone else does it".
CDs are getting more expensive because more and more people are ripping off music - if you're not buying CDs, you're making it worse.
"Everyone else does it" is a rubbish excuse smile


When it comes down to it - Music copying/sharing is theft.
None of us here (I hope) would walk into a shop and take things without paying. No-one would sneak into a local farm and raid their fields for food. So why is it considered acceptable to get your music for free?

Can't people see they're damaging the music industry?
One reason we're getting more and more shitty pop bands is they make a quick buck for the record labels - teeny boppers don't download the music, they go out and they buy the singles and albums. The "true music" fans are the one sitting at home downloading all their music - which means that "proper" bands aren't anywhere near as lucrative as pop-acts.

Thoughts?

smile


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Either way, bands or DJs make most of their money off doing shows, not their CDs. Most of the time bands barely get a cent in royalties per cd.

So if you really wanted to support an artist, you'd go to their concerts. They get more % of the sales from those.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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stroo
SILVER Member since Feb 2003

stroo

trusty sidekick to superman
Location: oxford, england, uk

Total posts: 799
Posted:well to be fair they do make a LOT too from CD's. I disagree with copying music from bands that are trying to make it, especially if theyre living off theyre profits at the time. Don't wanna let people starve now do we. But big bands, I think it should be fine. At a fest I saw the stereophonics and they told the hole audience to download their tracks off kazaar, which I thought was wicked coz it meant they werent in it for the money anymore. x

Livin' on dreams and custard creams

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:Written by: Dom

My problem with iTunes and many similar services is this:
Price per track in the UK: 99p
Price per track in the US: 99c
The exchange rate means we pay 45p extra. why? because we're used to it.



I've not been using iTunes, and that sucks. Although ordering things from Amazon.com instead of co.uk is also cheaper in a lot of cases.

If you want to do something groovy with that extra money then download from www.bignoisemusic.com - although it's the same price per track, 10p in every pound is donated to Oxfam's Make Trade Fair campaign smile ubbrollsmile


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Actually no, recording industry makes money from CDs, band rarely gets royalty worth anything.

for example, I do believe TBS's intake was 95% from concerts, and 5% from CDs and other means.

So if you want to support a band, buy the cd, but go to see their concert, please...


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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Konsti


Konsti

lovable smart-ass
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria

Total posts: 785
Posted:yep, all the small bands (mostly ska/ punk) that we organised shows for in vienna, admitted that cds dont make any money and are used to get them known. they get all the real money from the shows they play.

"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer

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twistedfirestarter


twistedfirestarter

member
Location: OZ

Total posts: 53
Posted:my thoughts are that i download a song to get a taste of that band, if i like them i go out and buy their stuff. It kinda just shares the music and gets it out there. But i deffinately wouldnt download every song from the cd. If i like it i go and buy it. But that is just me. if other people have different thoughts well im happy with that. smile

~*~peace and trust takes years to build, yet takes only seconds to shatter~*~

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:BUMP, because...

Written by:

British record companies are celebrating their best year ever for album sales.

Figures released by the British Phonographic Industry for the third quarter of 2004 reveal a close to the best 12 months for albums in history, with a record 237million units being shipped, a 3 per cent rise year-on-year.

British artists can also celebrate, with eleven of the 20 best-selling albums coming from UK or UK-signed artists.

The biggest selling album of the year was Life For Rent by Dido, followed by Will Youngs Fridays Child.

Proof that record sales are increasing rather than decreasing, however, will not help the BPIs claim that downloading is damaging the music business.

The top 20 biggest selling albums of the last 12 months are:

1. Life For Rent Dido
2. Fridays Child Will Young
3. Elephunk Black Eyed Peas
4. Call Off The Search Katie Melua
5. Number Ones Michael Jackson
6. In Time: The Best Of 1988-2003 REM
7. Feels Like Home Norah Jones
8. Hopes and Fears Keane
9. A Present For Everyone Busted
10. Greatest Hits Red Hot Chili Peppers
11. Permission To Land The Darkness
12. Scissor Sisters Scissor Sisters
13. Greatest Hits Guns nRoses
14. Confessions Usher
15. Twentysomething Jamie Cullum
16, Anastacia Anastacia
17. Songs About Jane Maroon 5
18. Three Sugababes
19. A Grand Dont Come For Free The Streets
20. Turnaround Westlife



So not so bad in the UK, apparently.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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PsychoTronic


stranger
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens

Total posts: 80
Posted:I do not call myself an honest person... I like that i am not honest in that kind of issues rolleyes
When I like a record very much though I have it as a replica I buy it original.
here is something I like very much.
There was a ship somewhere in atlantic ocean, there where many rich people there who were drinking their wine and they were listening to live music from some great musicians...
suddently the ship is under attack from pirates.The pirates are killing all the people there even the musicians....
what is the moral of the story?
Piracy kills music ubbangel

nice ha?


"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
"Put out the torches! Hide the moon! Hide the stars!"



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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:Music = Art

Art should be free in order to enrich peoples lives. wink

If the artist is intelligent they will be able to make a living by other means.

Its so simple... biggrin


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: dromepixie

Art should be free in order to enrich peoples lives. wink




Totally agree smile

Written by: dromepixie

Music = Art




But people call Britney music.. now I'm confused!

People shouldn't be allowed to download pop. There you go, sorted.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:Dude its like when you cook beans that have been dried some of them are bad but you just remove them and carry on cooking...

So avoid britney and find what u consider art. wink

I dont consider Japaneese death metal really artistic but Im sure that some people do... biggrin


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:I am recently guilty of downloading a song or two, and after examining what I had downloaded:

50% were songs I actually paid for long ago. I have nearly 400 cassette tapes in my collection. Some I wore out and had to buy another, (in the case of G-N-R's Appetite for Destruction, 3 times). Also, many albums I also re-purchased on CD, because it's a more permanent format than cassettes. I have doubles of a lot of albums, so I've bought a lot of them twice. (One could almost say that I've earned a few downloads...) In a few cases, it was stuff that was stolen from me during a recent break-in.

30% were music that was completely unavailable anywhere. For example, I searched for a certain motion picture score for years. It wasn't sold in stores, I couldn't find it at a flea market or other second hand sources. I wrote the distributor, they told me it was unavailable, probably out of production. I couldn't purchase it legally if I wanted to. I finally found a copy of it online. In 5 years of searching, this was the only place I COULD get the music.

10% was stuff that I wanted to hear before I spent money on it, or added it to my brithday/Christmas wishlist. I approve completely of test driving the tunes.

After all was tallied, only 10% was music that I had no intention of reimbersing the record company for. I refuse to shell out $17 for a single song I like and 11 tracks of manufactured, formula-driven crap. I've bought enough albums like that over the years. If 90% of an album sucks, do you get a refund? No way. I think the entertainment/music industry has high expectations of the general populace.

Instead of cursing this new technology, maybe record companies should embrace it and incorporate it. Maybe downloaded music files could have a half life, self-destructing or corrupting themselves after a couple of days. I know they can engineer 'smart' CDs, which will only allow a single reproduction to be made for the owner's back-up files. Point is, something could be done to improve the technology onstead of simply suing people for theft.

It occurs to me now, considering the shoddy quality and high prices the record companies represent, something Thomas Moore once wrote about first creating thieves and then punishing them? If they didn't want people to resent them so and start 'stealing' music, maybe they could have appealed to their target audience, making music more affordable and holding it to higher standards...
Just my 2 cents


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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kiteman


Flying high!
Location: At the beach.

Total posts: 245
Posted:These manufactured bands/ artists. only making it big through programmes like pop idol etc. Aren't in it for the love of music, only to make the recording labels more money, or to push the latest fashons. So I see no problem in downloading there music.

If everything seems under control, your not going fast enough!

It's not the size of the wave, it's the length of the ride!

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Durbs

The whole "i can't afford it so I'll have it for free" or "If I can afford it I'd buy it, if not I'll download it" is a bit lame really. This is probably going to sound a bit too harsh - but music is a luxury good, whatever happened to the days of saving up for something you wanted? It's not like anyone needs the music right then-and-there, it just seems like a convenient excuse.




Do you really believe that, Durbs? smile Have you never heard anyone say "This song saved my life" or "this song got my through my exams"? What's music therapy for?

As well as not being able to afford to buy something, a lot of people, like myself, can't afford to even save up for it. When those people download without paying, the artists doesn't lose money because those people simply do not have any money to give them in the first place. And as has been stated already, most of those who can afford the music, make a point of acquiring it legally.

Written by: Durbs

Just to re-iterate - I'm not against file-sharing for getting hold of hard-to-find/un-released stuff, nor for "try before you buy" means - just when people have 1000's of songs which they never paid for and still claim to be music "fans".




Why? smile Downloading songs because they're "hard to find": isn't that also an excuse?

Those who don't put the effort in to find the "hard to find" music in it's legal format (if any) and who also don't pay for it when they're downloading it: they're OK? I would've thought that finding that music in the "hard way" would make them more of a fan confused

Is illegal sampling any different? I'd recommend doing a search for what Public Enemy have said about it: they admit that their sound has changed since It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back because if they sampled in the way they used to in that album, one song would cost them half of what they'd make on one album, which is sad when you think about how much that album inspired other artists and influenced the genre itself frown


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:absolutely right. But i'm totally happy to pay the artists double what little they earn from their producers

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:and cd's are sooo bad for the environment wink

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:when I get rich, very soon I assure you unbelievers, I'm mailing Morcheeba like 500squid out of my pocket with a card from anonymous saying 'Wicked tunes! Well done.'

I think that would provide much more money than any other method they have tried in the past... At least from me...

Music is soup for your soul eat up it will make u feel good...

biggrin


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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-=Sidhe=-


member
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Total posts: 22
Posted:Home taping is killing music!

Does anyone else remember that?

So long as nothing drastic has happened since I last checked, music is still here. And thriving quite nicely, too.


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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:s'ok folks! i am singlehandedly keeping the CD industry afloat!! I've bought 8 albums in the last 2 weeks.... i then promptly stopped listening to music and started reading.... umm

Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:I'm buying a re-release of an album I've already got. That's gotta score some brownie points.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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-=Sidhe=-


member
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Total posts: 22
Posted:NOn; surely you can do both at once?

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:yeah you'd think.... thing is i don't actually listen when i'm reading, it just uses up electricity, then if there's a song i really like, i stop actually reading... it all gets into a very complicated cycle by which point i realise i've read the same line twenty three times.... I'm sure i used to be able to do both at once, but half my brain has gone into hibernation for winter....

nearly all gone> excellent work, the record company will most certainly be pleased. I'm pretty sure they leapt with joy too, when i shelled out 24 quid for a Tool album just because it had a limited edition holographic case.... umm (i'm not even that much of a fan, what was going through my head when i did that?.....) they owe me a few free downloads for that one!


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Socks
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

Socks

Arf! Can I have a biscut?
Location: North America, Mid West, USA

Total posts: 288
Posted:I'll stop file sharing music when you can tell me where to get some of the stuff I look for. Ever tried to find a live copy of Glenn Miller "In the mood" at your local store? How about DaVinci's Notebook? A lot of live or rare cuts just don't EXIST at 99.9% of music stores, online or real. Onilne is a resource to find that stuff.

PLUS, I like to listen to a track OFF the radio, to see if I like it. 20 second "bites" aren't enough to really get into it. But that's me. If I like 3 tracks from a CD, I'll buy it. I won't download a whole album, I'll support an artist if I like their stuff. But if they have one "decent" song, and the other 14 aren't good, forget it.

Socks, privateer fuzzball.


I'm weird. Just work through that and we'll all be fine.

"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater suggest that he wear a tail." - Fran Lebowitz

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Devil - D


Devil - D

member
Location: Holland (Deventer)

Total posts: 72
Posted:I' think that downloading is stimulating bands to go on tour!
And underrated/underground bands get a chance to break trough right now. CD's doesn't make the money anymore..and i think that's a good development!


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear,...

Total posts: 4693
Posted:downloading is good and bad, it does help promote the band, but it doesnt make a hard working band any more well off.

i think that mostly the bands that are downloaded a lot are famous and already have enough money(this mightnt always be true, but what is?). Really the whole issue is being driven by the large record companies who are bi***ing because they aren't making money out of it so i say go ahead,
if its a fact the band is rich then it will only hurt the record companies, if its a band you respect like the John Butler Trio(the first group/artist to reach number one in Australia without being signed to a major record label) then show your respect and buy the album.
thats where my morals lie anyway...................


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:
the whole music industry is changing. and there's a couple of points I'd like to make:

a lot of recording studios go bankrupt because bands are finding out it's way more easier to record an album in your practice room with protools.

knowing this will make you realise that bands don't really need record companies anymore to help them record stuff. the only reason why they think they need them, is for the promotion of their records.

as mentioned before: all this downloading IS helping to promote a band as such. and the promotion that a record company provides only works for the big selling acts anyway, the only thing they really provide for the smaller ones is distribution. but we now have the internet for that too.

so knowing all this, plus all the info from previous posts, we can conclude that the music industry really only benifits the bigger acts.

so now, in my opinion, all this downloading is preparing us for the next level of music industry. the level where we don't need record companies anymore, but will record and distibute by ourselves. and I truely believe that if you set up some kind of apriciation fund (with paypal eg) that people will deposit money on the band's account number when they have downloaded something they really like...
an additional option would be that the music download is free (with the above named appriciation dollar) but that you can order a fully printed CD cover over the post, to still have an original in your collection, which will only cost a fraction of the full CD price: lets say 3 dollars. the profits from this will go to the band themselves as well. both ways ensuring that the band will have more income that they would ever have made with regular CD sales.

I am a musician myself, I work as a soundengineer, and have friends in all different aspects of the industry. I do downloads loads of music over the net. always full albums, because it gives you a better grasp on a band. but in my P2P program I urge people to go and see bands play life.
that way you support them more: they get a commision from the entreefee, plus I usually buy something at the merch stand to support them.
last time I saw a band I really liked, I went to them afterwards and bought a t-shirt, but also told them that I did that for support and that I would download the record.

but....
BEWARE!!!!!

nowadays the new trend with record companies, especially for bands that appear as if they might be getting big, the record companies forbid the bands to sell their own merch at shows....
eventhough they might be touring with their own merchandising person, the record company will have arranged that a local (commercial) record store will be there to sell the CDs and often also t-shirts. they will then also forbid the band to sell anything themselves, and none of the money earned that night from the merch will then go to the band!!!!!

this is how bad the record companies are now, so they deserved to be ripped off.
so I'd say: go ahead, download music as much as you like, but support the bands as much as you can.

also: paying itunes to download music is even worse than just downloading. the only thing you do with that is steal the money that the record stores would have made (often small individual stores) and deposit all the profit not only in the [censored] hands of the record company, but also in the pockets of another multinational: itunes. that way you would be stealing from those store owners who are trying to make a living...

I also read somewhere in this thread that people were scared that this would be the end of music, but don't forget that most musicians make music to make music, because there is an urge to create, not to make money.
music and bands will always be there, whatever happens. we just need to find a new and fairer way to support their artistic product.



meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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monkeynamedspank


monkeynamedspank

Padawan
Location: Bolton

Total posts: 197
Posted:I find that a lot of the albums i want are actually quite difficult to obtain online, it's generally only a couple of tracks. I don't think that's such a bad thing, I get to hear i i really like the stuff or not, then decide whether or not to buy the album.

It could just be my obscure music tastes. I went into a music shop the other day and was looking at all the cheap albums, then when i went to look for ones I was actually interested in, they were all up to twice what the others were. I wasn't amused.


Damn the addictiveness of forums! (Or should it be addictivity?)

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:I only download individual tunes.
Not entire albums.

smile


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Gayle......!
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol !!!!!!, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2444
Posted:*bump*

I don't want to get involved in the debate. I just want to ask a question.

I've been asked my my mums friend to sort out her foster daughters MP3 player and show her how to download music. She's willing to pay on a "pre-pay" type scheme. In other words she'll put 5 - 10 on a account so the foster daughter can download what she wants for her money.

We tried itunes last night but weren't able to play the download on the MP3 player (Logik 512MB LCD). The MP3 player wouldn't play the M4P format and the converter into AAC didn't work.

I need to keep the way of downloading extremely simple. I can't afford to install something and then have to convert it and all that malarky. So i need something that works straight away with no fuss. It need to be easy to use for somebody who has no experience of computers.

I've looked at these:

iTunes, Napster, MyCokeMusic, Woolworths, 7 Digital Media, Playlouder, MSN Music, Big Noise Music, HMV, Virgin, Tesco, Tiscali Music, Sonic Selector, Wanadoo, city16.com, recordstore.co.uk, KarmaDownload, Wippit, The Music Engine Service, Bleep, easyMusic

Has anyone got any experience of these and can recommend one. I've started to look at the Big Noise Music one - based on Non's post and this looks quite good. I agree with the 10% going to Oxfam and all that.

So any thoughts???


Gayle.....!

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by: gayle
I don't want to get involved in the debate. I just want to ask a question.





ubblol famous last words



Written by: gayle
So any thoughts???





no experience of those you mentioned, however I do know that itunes doesn't give you normal mp3, they have funky copyright stuff embedded in them.


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