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Forums > Social Discussion > Music Copying & Sharing / Right or Wrong?

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Ok, well I tried a search, but putting "Music" into the search engine comes up with loads (and loads) or "What music do you listen to" threads. So forgive me if this has been discussed before.

What are peoples views on copying CD's and file sharing?
Most of us here would call ourselves "Music Lovers" and would also call ourselves fair, honest people. Yet when it comes down to it, copying/downloading music is both dishonest (illegal) and harms the music industry which makes the music we love.

Do morals go out the window when we can get something for free?

Now, I'm not against file sharing - I think it's a great idea, especially when you look at the idea behing the original Naptser (which i believe stoped for something link New Artists Support Program) where new, un-signed bands could get their music to thousands of people. I freely admit to having downloaded songs, occasionally whole albums - but I maintain, that even if I've downloaded an entire album, if I like it, I'll go out an buy it. Likewise, if I really enjoy a couple of songs from a band I've downloaded - I'll go out and buy their album.

Where file sharing is great is getting hold of rarities - live stuff (Fantastic live Placebo album "Cabaret of Desire" which isn't an offical album) or hard-to-find rarities/b-sides.

But what narks me, is "music lovers" who will go on-and-on about how they love this band, have all thier albums - yet they haven't ever bought one of their CDs. They'll give all kind of excuses, usually either "CDs are too expensive" or "everyone else does it".
CDs are getting more expensive because more and more people are ripping off music - if you're not buying CDs, you're making it worse.
"Everyone else does it" is a rubbish excuse smile


When it comes down to it - Music copying/sharing is theft.
None of us here (I hope) would walk into a shop and take things without paying. No-one would sneak into a local farm and raid their fields for food. So why is it considered acceptable to get your music for free?

Can't people see they're damaging the music industry?
One reason we're getting more and more shitty pop bands is they make a quick buck for the record labels - teeny boppers don't download the music, they go out and they buy the singles and albums. The "true music" fans are the one sitting at home downloading all their music - which means that "proper" bands aren't anywhere near as lucrative as pop-acts.

Thoughts?

smile


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

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Posted:Written by: Durbs
CDs are getting more expensive because more and more people are ripping off music



Thats bullshit mate.

I can remember before music sharing ever became big, that cds and tapes cost between 10 and 15 for an album. In line with current prices.

And Durbs.. did you know it only costs 20p to make a cd?

I think I have only once downloaded a song, listened to it, liked it so much that I bought the entire album without listenig to any of the other songs.

and eventhen the entire album was only 37 minutes long. Which pissed me off no end.
The same price for half as much music?

I download songs. Not as much anymore as I generally have everything I want now.

I also cant afford to buy cds if I only like a few songs on the album.


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Written by: Unsaturated Carpets Of Freedom

And Durbs.. did you know it only costs 20p to make a cd?




Rubbish.
Say a CD costs 15.
The retailer (HMV or whoever) take 1/3
so 10.
Record label will take at least 10%, probably 20% - lets say 15% just for their profit
~ 8.50
Distributor (sometimes the record label, not always) will take 2
~ 6.50
Studio fees, marketing, session musicians - ALL the production costs will take about 3 per CD
~ 3.50
Manufacturing - 20p? Ok...
~ 3.20
So songwriter gets 65% of that under standard BPI rates - irrelavant if the band write as a group - but VERY important if they're using samples (2.55)
~ 0.65 for the artists (assuming they don't write as a band or they have a songwriter)
4 in a band...
~ 16p per musican per CD.
Generally it works out about 50p per band member if they're sharing the songwriting credits....


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

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Posted:It might be slightly on a tangent... but it's also important to remember that loads of people still don't have good enough computers (or access to any computer at all), so downloading isn't an option.

If I tried to download anything it would take weeks (and my connection is set to shut down after 2 hours anyways - tis my parents computer).

It's frustrating for me too that certain music only comes out on the internet - cos I can't get my hands on it.

I think I will always prefer to buy music in a store, though - there's something about having the CD in your hand, with the artwork and the complete package rather than just ripping it off the net.

And I don't support illegal filesharing (though I have to admit, I have copied the odd CD from friends). But this is bad, I know a couple of young really talented bands - guys who need all the money they can get - and if their music was taken from the internet that would mean less cash for them to pay their rent. I have less sympathies for the Madonna's and Robbie Williams of this world, but for young, unheard of bands - you can't steal their livelihood.


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Written by: Firepoise

And I don't support illegal filesharing (though I have to admit, I have copied the odd CD from friends). But this is bad, I know a couple of young really talented bands - guys who need all the money they can get - and if their music was taken from the internet that would mean less cash for them to pay their rent. I have less sympathies for the Madonna's and Robbie Williams of this world, but for young, unheard of bands - you can't steal their livelihood.



*gives Firepoise a HUGE hug*
Exactly

Incidentally, I should mention that my above post breaking down the cost of CD production comes from having a diploma in "Popular and Contemporary Music Performance and Production" - i.e. I didn't make it up. smile


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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

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Posted:i have very few burnt cd's - i just love buy cd's - listening to the entire album. indicently one of my favourite bands - vast, now offers all of their albums downloadable so that all the proceeds go direct to the artist.



i suppose it also depends on how wealthy the band are. i follow alot of local aussie bands who dont make much money, so am happy to support them. i dont really care about massive bands that have shitloads of money.



upon reflection, ive recently burnt my brothers entire cd collection - but i dont do much fileswappage with people i dont know.



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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

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Posted:Thats what I meant..

20p manufacturing

ubbangel


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mech
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

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Posted:to risk putting into this debate,

the music inustry has been way to slow and not pro active enought to stop the trend

while you can say "our new album is copy protected"

it will only take a day pr two at most for someone some where to figure out how to crack the code and copy teh cd, same iwth gaes, and progs...

codemasters i think hold the record for a game released 4weeks ago approx and itss till uncracked.....

but more over i think its mainly ppl who are downloading albums, and games, and progs and apps, and then ot going and buying the cds, its hard to explain to them what the full effects are when they see themselves as individuals, and not a group doing it

i would like to say that i download one or two tracks then go get the album, but mostly that doesnt happen

i am no longer a large downloader of music, i rip other ppls cds, listen to them and then decide what im goin to do

ill be honest, hald of my music collection is copied, but never uploaded for thers to get at...

i have downloaded 5albums prob in the last yr, three of which i have bought since, lost prophets, incubus and so on

but.....

i do see why ppl do it, its free, its a way to get new sounds...

but i dont think ppl understand that it will take a huge gfull scale colapse of the mucis movie and software industy tp stop ppl doing it......

currently i will admit i download progs more than music, and while i know this si wrong, mostly its prog i have no dreams of buyig cos they cost to much.....

once i have trialed them to see ifs its worth it, then yes i do , and i will always go out and get a full code, thats the way belive in doing things....

i mainly go for trial apps, and such

people dont see whats happening

and guys no matter how much you argue about it, you wont stop joe bloggs from doing it cos they will always get away with it untill the industry crashes


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:True - Software piracy is just as bad - worse infact, the prices are hugely over-inflated, both for games and programs - simply because they need to keep their profit margins but 1-in-5 of their prgrams are copied/cracked.

But copy-protecting CDs or not - it's still illegal to copy/download them - yet people still do it, people who normally wouldn't break any other laws. Safety in numbers obviously plus the anonimity of the internet - but still, morals must play some part in it...


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

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Posted:That's true, you can't stop people doing it, but the industry won't crash from it... they'll just come up with another way to stop it happening.



If your mate worked all day and night practicising his music, writing, producing and mixing and putting heart and soul into it, then some fecker came along and ripped all that work for free from the internet - you can understand why he wouldn't be too happy. (especially when they're living on the dole, and whatever meagre scraps they get from live gigs and their 50p-a-CD profit - every CD counts!)



As I said, for the big artists who have more money than sense anyways, it isn't really going to matter - but please don't steal from the little guys!!!


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mech
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

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Posted:its not that anonamous durbs

the ISP (internet service provider) you use can be asked by the gov or police to monitor certain IP addressed, thuis can then be used to track down who is accessing what file sharing progs and then traced back to teh users...

but once they get rid of the main players, they will turn on home users, its hard to say when, but the time will come

atm i think they are more concentrating on main distributors, the 28 ppl in the papers the other day, ppl who are selling lots of stuff at car boots and so on, but it will come soon


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Written by: Firepoise

As I said, for the big artists who have more money than sense anyways, it isn't really going to matter - but please don't steal from the little guys!!!



Now, see, I have issues with this too... redface

Why does it become ok if a band is big?
Take Muse for example, they did it the hard way - started small, independent first album, toured their arses off and damn well earned their success. But once they've acheived their fame it's ok to rip them off?

Pfffff....


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_Clare_
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_Clare_

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Posted:Lol, no, you're right.

Ok, now my own bias comes in here... I don't have so much time for the manufactured acts whose programmers and mixers do all the hard work - feel free to rip them off at will (morally wrong it may be - but so is their music).
But bands like Muse, Placebo and the Roots, who have all worked really hard and are obviously talented musicians should be able to reap the rewards of all that hard work.

Better?! biggrin


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Much smile

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

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Posted:luckily, most of the music i listen to is released on independant labels.

if i want an album from a less well known artist, on their own label, or an independant label, i'll go out and buy the album.

i'm also a huge supporter of live music (live meaning live acts, i.e. live performances from bands, electronic artists and dj's, but hey, that's another topic wink) for the past 20 years i've probably been going to an average of at least 1 gig a week.

so i do feel that i support the music industry at a grassroots level. therefore i don't feel guilty about the small number of copies in my music collection.

hell, the cd was only invented in the early 80's, and it wasn't until the late 80's that all albums were available on this new-fangled format. up until then we bought everything on vinyl. and vinyl albums could always be taped by those who couldn't afford/ didn't want to buy them. so this copying lark is nothing new.....

thank you durbs for reminding me i'm ancient... rolleyes ubblol


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
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Posted:but you dont know how to use a computer Faberge.... ubblol

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

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Posted:sshhh.... you don't need to let them all know redface

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

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Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:There is nothing wrong with downloading music at all - It's not paying for it that is wrong.

I use the iTunes Music Store for downloading music. I don't care about CD's as I have an iPod so I never use the things. Any CD I have I rip on to my Mac and add to the iPod. Therefore downloading from the iTMS is easier than going to a shop, getting the CD for 30% more, then copying it on to the computer.

Having said that - I have in the past downloaded a lot of illegal music. I now see that the was wrong and I'm buying my way though the albums I have.

The point about waiting 'till someone is rich before stealing from them is ridiculous! The point is that although they wont feel it as much, its still stealing! Its still wrong! Or do you think we should have a level where its ok to steal? I wouldn't mind stealing from tesco, I would mind stealing from my friends local shop...where does a local chain of 5 shops fit in? Do I only steal sometimes from them? It's stupid!

This of cause of an analogy, I Dont steal from any shop, however large or small!


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Fair point - bad choice of words - by "downloading" I meant "downloading music without paying for it when you should"

smile


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Dentrassi
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Posted:
Written by:
Take Muse for example, they did it the hard way - started small, independent first album, toured their arses off and damn well earned their success. But once they've acheived their fame it's ok to rip them off?



yay for muse! ubblove matt bellamy was asked about ripping music - because they dont sell as many albums as other acts - and he said something like "i dont mind too much - if i was them id probably burn all my music anyway. besides, we've come further than we ever expected so we cant complain!" or something along those lines. ubblol


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:OK, first thing - are we damaging the music industry as much as we're lead to believe?
I agree a lot of people will download and not by and big record companies are complaining that their profits are falling and blame piracy. But record sales have actually risen this year. What's gone down is the unit price, which needed to fall!

some quotes:
"CD sales rocketed 7.6 per cent in the United Kingdom last year, according to Music Week. 121 million CDs were sold, excluding compilations."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/13/cd_sales_rocket_in_uk/
br>
"A study of file-sharing's effects on music sales says online music trading appears to have had little part in the recent slide in CD sales."
http://www.silicon.com/networks/webwatch/0,39024667,39119638,00.htm


"On a positive note, sales of first release titles (as indicated by ARIAnet Top 100 Album sales) were up 14% in the first half. The decline in the overall audio album market can be attributed therefore to a slower moving back catalogue, largely a result of the growing DVD format and retail space being allocated to both music and movie DVDs."
http://www.aria.com.au/pages/AustralianRecordSales-2004HalfYearFigures.htm
br>- note that DVD and music DVDs compete with the CD market figures and are not included in sales figures. You buy these in the same shop so a customer percieves their purchases on both as purchases on the same thing.

Also people often cite piracy as hurting the small bands most, but what hurts and stifles the small bands most is the current operating practises of the record industry, but that's another discussion.

Whilst small bands and independent labels are almost as open to download piracy as the other labels (almost as there's less copies and so not downloaded as much) these same bands and labels are the ones making the most of the digital medium. Years ago, whilst the record copies were ignoring the internet, small bands were using it to distribute their music which otherwise would never have got released.

So there's pros and cons. It is illegl, but it's not the killer it's often claimed to be.


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Fair points - and yes, to a degree I agree that alot of the complaining is done by the major labels lamenting over a drop in their billions of profit.
But big or not - it is still a negative impact in terms of they have less money to spend on getting new bands signed, and when they do release new stuff, they sell less records.

A side point - The majority of bands money comes from touring and playing gigs, not album sales. Especially pop acts as they don't get the songwriting credits so need to get the performance money instead.

But the thing that annoys me (and that insprired me to write this post) was a converstation thusly, which I've had many times:
"Have you heard of [insert band name here]?"
"Nope - any good?"
"Yeah they're wicked - I'm going to see if I can get a copy off of someone/download it"

This just makes me cross - you enjoy their work, but don't think they deserve to get paid? It sucks...


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Oh - and it's wicked that sales are on the up, but bear in mind that the entire UK economy is currently very strong and people are buying stuff left-right-and-centre...

I am genuinely surprised this is the case though - not in a "I don't believe it" surprised way, just a pleasantly surprised one smile


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...{SAFE}...

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Posted:i dont think i realy have a point to make ....

maybe im ol' skool , but the pleasure of going to a music store and listening to albums hour after hour , trying to make a decission , and then finally buying the one or two that i realy like (i meant to say "can afford" ) . its like going to the library and finding a book . i guess people are so wrapped up in the idea of get it now , quicker , faster !!! its so overwhelming !-- if thats you , then, well i think that you dont realy appreaciate all the the music (bands + people) have done for you ! yes you , the one thats ripping/stealing/downloadingillegally ! music IS the rythm of the soul ! its not about how much the music costs , its about how much you enjoy the music ! yes , sometimes i envy the people that are able to afford to buy 16 albums and then walk out the door into a book store and do the same . but , i can afford my one CD and thats what i listen to cause its what i want to listen to and ive been searching for the past hour to find that album/CD . dont steal , i know , we've all done it before , but that music doesnt sounds anything like the CD you browsed for the other day , spending all you time finding that one CD ! i know .

life is good , music makes it better, dont steal what people have worked on their entire lives to give you , at such a small cost !

thanks


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

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Posted:I think I have purchased more albums because of downloading MP3s and liking them a lot than for any other reason.

-v-

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Vixen
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Posted:I totally agree with Vanize on that one, i dont think i would own half the cds i do if it wasnt for music sharing and downloading.

The thing that annoys me is that smaller bands put free mp3s on thier websites to encourage fans to listen to them and to spread the word around... then as soon as they get big they get all kranked up about it (does this make sense) because they think they are losing out on money! xxx


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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

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Posted:I'm into indie massivley, obsessivley. If I really like a band, I want ever song they ever did, every version and every remix and everything... but you just can't get some of those things without downloads. My 2nd favourite band, Mew, released 2 albums before they released one in Britain. The other 2 are deleted back in Denmark, and change hands for about 300! I can't afford that. I'll never be able to afford that. So why shouldn't I just download it?



If I could afford it I'd buy it, because albums are great - the sleeve, the artwork, just being able to hold something in your hand - but as I can't, why would any artist who cares about their music resent me downloading it?



As for people downloading chart songs and stuff... well, I can honestly say I've done this about 3 times, but I'd never in a million yars have gone out and bought a single or an album from the bands I downloaded. So I just want to hear their music, but I wouldn't pay for it. What decent musician would have a problem with that? They have to make their money, sure... but for casual downloaders, I really don't see that it harms them at all.



I think there should be a numerical limit on downloads. That way you can get some songs, but not take the piss out of the band who produced them.



edit - also, funny about Muse not selling many albums. Pretty much everyone I know has all 3 studio albums! And Absolution was in the charts for ages! I think when they brought out the live/bsides album, Hullabaloo, they kind of cornered the downloaders anyway. That comp totally rocks due to track order, general atmosphere... artwork, all kinds of stuff you don't get with MP3.



I hate it when people release download-only stuff. I don't have broadband, so I don't have access to these things. It's not that I'm backwards, it's just that vast areas of the country still don't have local telecoms with the capacity to provide broadband. It's a bit short-sighted to release download-only stuff if you're a big name... Radiohead are talking about it, and that would be gutting.



And I can't afford an I-pod... I don't know anyone who's got one, and I don't want one. My CD player cost me 20 and it's wicked. Why should I have to upgrade because people in London and New York and I don't know where can afford these things?



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NOn


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Posted:Written by: Dom

Also people often cite piracy as hurting the small bands most, but what hurts and stifles the small bands most is the current operating practises of the record industry, but that's another discussion.

Whilst small bands and independent labels are almost as open to download piracy as the other labels (almost as there's less copies and so not downloaded as much) these same bands and labels are the ones making the most of the digital medium. Years ago, whilst the record copies were ignoring the internet, small bands were using it to distribute their music which otherwise would never have got released.




I agree, I think that too many of the big music labels put too much effort into creating a quick turnover, whereas it seems that the independent labels put more time and effort into nurturing new bands through touring, and as a result create bands that are worth listening to.

CD piracy, or the uproar about it is all about greed, simply by signing a record deal and agreeing to have your music mass-produced, it is released into the wider world - and you can't hold onto it, the artist has put it out there to be interpreted/ used however, they are credited as the creators, they have the IPR rights, but it is no longer really 'theirs' at all. It is my opinion that the music industry generally is too hooked on the idea of money and greed. Music as i view it, is art, and that is not what art about, art is about giving something of yourself, not raking it in.

The wider your audience gets, the less you can control ownership. If a band wants a tighter hold on how their art is used and abused then they should stay live and never lay it down in material format. If the band aims to reach an exponential audience, then the internet is a useful tool to do that, but they can't turn round and get stroppy about the way its been used. It only becomes 'stealing', if it is used for another persons monetary gain, 'sharing' music is about sharing art and sharing enjoyment of that art, you can't steal enjoyment, it's not a physical thing...

I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but that's how i view it, music to me me is more than just a product or a physical thing that needs to be posessed


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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

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Posted:NOn, It does make sense!

It's like Metallica getting upset because they're being downloaded... how many millions of dollars have their records made them?

It's just sad.


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

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Posted:
As handy as it is to have an mp3 player that I could just fill with downloaded music straight from the computer, I still like to have the inlay cards and all that kind of stuff that you just don't get with a download. I'm a sucker for limited edition cds.

Generally, I download tracks to see if I like more of a band's music than I've already heard and then either buy the album if I like it or delete it if I think it's pants.
I think of this as no different to borrowing the album from a friend for long enough to make a choice about buying it, except I now have alot more friends all over the world to borrow it from and I don't have them nagging about wanting it back wink

With the rising cost of albums that seem to have less and less music, I had to stop my habit of wandering into music shops and buying cds that I think might be good, it's too expensive not to check the music out more and give it a good listen before buying, especially since it's so easy to download it.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

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Posted:"NOn, It does make sense!

It's like Metallica getting upset because they're being downloaded... how many millions of dollars have their records made them?

It's just sad. "

I stilll don't understand this philosophy. I always feel like either the person hasn't thought it through, or they know something I don't.

If you keep stealing from musicians, in 10 years, there may not be any musicians! If there is no viable demand for a product, the supply will disappear. I feel this is an incredibly short sighted argument and treating someone differently based on their economic status is prejudice. Should we be able to kick poor people because they're poor? No, and we shouldn't be able to steal from rich people because they are rich. You're a lot better off than millions of people around the world. Should I be able to steal your car because of that?

I also feel that the record industry is being incredibly short sighted as well, and making poor decisions as to the solution to filesharing. Rather than offering a viable solution (Cheaper CDs? Although Walmart recently announced they are trying to rally the 'big 6' record producers to get *ALL NEW CDS* under $10.00, about a 40% decrease), they raise prices in order to mantain their current income. This works in the short run, yes, but as you raise prices, demand is going to shift even further down. Nobody will buy 40 dollar CDs, and raising prices is *NOT* the way to deal with competition. Anybody that has taken any form of economics knows this, and the producers should know this.


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