Forums > Social Discussion > the swastica good or evil?

Posted: 14th Oct 2004
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One reason why many people want to reclaim the swastica is that it is such a unique and powerful image, on a par with other classics like the Taoist 'yin-yang'.

Just looking at it from a totally objective perspective (ie without the fascist or historical buddhist/hindu spiritual themes) it is symetrical and balanced, yet also has a clear direction and is very suggestive of motion.

Many children when first seeing it will embarrass their parents by going through a phase of drawing it everywhere- they see it's innate beauty and power, with out having any knowledge of the fascist connection.

It's highly likely that the reason Hitler adopted it was totally because it was such a good symbol- not because there's anything innately fascist about it, but because of its power, balance and motion.

Also adopted where some of the symbols that appear in the Nordic 'rune' system, the most obvious example being the jagged lightning rune, two of which where put together to make the characteristic 'SS' symbol that appeared on nazi uniform collars.

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My opinion is that the avatar sounds (I haven't seen it) like it was there to provoke a reaction- my opinion is that overly offensive avatars should be removed on a community forum like this.

But, talking purely about the swastica issue, I defend fully anyones attempts to set the record straight- the swastica is not, IMO, a symbol of fascism.

As Firepoise has pointed out the christian cross has been similarly abused, in fact, through history, far more people have been abused, tortured and murdered under regimes bearing the cross as their symbol, than those who did under the swastica.

And I guess one thing that troubles me about some of the reactions is the extreme curtural and historical bias I see here- yes, students of 20 th century western history will mainly see the swasticas fascist connection, but the 20 th century west is a drop in the ocean of the world history of all civilisations.

Let me stress that I'm in no way advocating displaying swasticas everywhere- my post above shows that I believe that to be highly insensitive- I'm simply wanting to point out that there's a lot more to this issue than the knee jerk 'swastica=Hitler' reaction.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
I never knew that the swastika was one of love and peace and all the rest of that.

But that is because it is not taught in school, being that some of my family (generations ago) were murdered under that symbol I never had any interest in finding out the history behind the symbol.

In school we are taught about the evils of Hitler and in that we learn about the symbol that he fought under.

If my lack of knowledge makes me ignorant then so be it...but how are we supposed to know anything if we are not taught or given any idea that there are other connotations behind it?

Since hearing on here that that their have been other meanings associated with the Swastika I have done some more research on it but I am still offended by the use...not so much by the symbol just by itself but the fact that it was obviously not used in a sense to prevay peace, hope and love.

In using that symbol you have to use the utmost respect and make sure it is clear what meaning you are trying to pass on to others there is too much hurt and pain surrounding that symbol to think that it would not offend certain people.

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
Sorry this is going to be long, but I have a couple of points to make on this that don't exactly hit the true target of the thread, but are sort of relevant and I promise I'll try to tie it together in the end. If anyone isn't interested in reading the whole thing, then the last paragraph at least says the core of what I want to communicate, so please read that.



Here in Germany it is completely illegal to print, reproduce, display, etc. any swastikas. While this is an understandable reaction in a way, I also find it ironic, because:

1) The German state is dictating to its people what they can and cannot do - which seems to me to be a sort of totalitarian act the memory of which they are trying to bury by making it illegal to use a swastika.

2) It adds power to the symbol for the neo-nazi groups which unfortunately still exist in parts of Germany (even though these obtuse, uneducated kids seem to have no clue what naziism really was and that they would have likely been among the first purged back in the 1930s)



One of my hobbies is building scale models, and nazi aircraft and tanks are a huge market in this area, mainly because the 3rd Reich produced a large variety of technically innovative planes and armour. Some people even find this offensive that modellers are so fired up to reproduce these war machines produced under Hitler. But to me that is sort of like saying you shouldn't read books or watch documentaries about WWII either since being interested in the 3rd Reich in model form is not so different than being interested in it in historical form (modellers are almost always avid historians as well, particularly of the eras they choose to reproduce). But beyond these objections from a small minority who claim it glorifies the 3rd Reich or the conflit in general, I think the majority of people see modelling of WWII subjects (even German ones) as harmless or perhaps even benificial since it does remind us of and perhaps encourage us to learn about history.



So I have digressed a bit, but the reason I brought up the modelling is because I was at a scale model exhibition here in Berlin last month, which happened to be held in the Luftwaffe Museum. Now modellers in germany are not allowed to put swastikas on their finished replicas of german WWII aircraft (many still do for accuracy but put solid color tape over them when displaying in public). Ironically, just behind the display of a 1/48 scale Messerschmit 109 (one of the most produced aircraft in history) is a real 109 from WWII - with the swastika still on it! So here we had some harmless models which were effectivly sensored, right next to a real artifact of the 3rd Reich (that was actually used to try to and in fact probably did kill people) totally uncensored - only because the latter belongs to the government. I found the implications of this to be far more disturbing than just seeing a swastika could ever be for me.



No idea if I expressed my thought on that well enough for anyone to understand but me, so I'll move on to the next thing vaguely swastika related.



Here in Germany (and I imagine elsewhere), a very good (but long and rather slow but brilliantly acted and produced) movie came out called " Die Untergang ", which depicts the finals days of the 3rd Reich as the Russians advance on Berlin and everything starts final collapse. It has apparently been very controversial, mainly because it depicts Hitler mearly as an obsessed and despondant human being out of contact with reality, rather than the devil-incarnate (as all who opposed him seem to view him) or as a god figure (as neo-nazis like to see him). So basically it managed to disturb anyone who felt strongly about Hitler one way or the other by openly telling a story rather closer to the truth than previously seen. To tell the story, they used accounts of people who were actually there in the final days with Hitler in his bunker - people like his secretary (whose biography was produced like 10 or 15 years ago), his cook, his radio communications officer, and certain other officials who were there and survived long enough to eventually be able to tell their stories. But the real problem most people seem to have is that the movie was solely a German production. It seems to me that some people seem to think the Germans have no right to confront their own history still, like they are still on probation. But if you ask me, the time to do something like this was past due, and better now than in 20 years when anyone who could have acted as a technical advisor to at least keep some truth in among the speculation was dead. Also I think it is about time people let the German forgive themselves.



So that brings me to the swastika. Personally I think it is silly that people get more worked up about the swastika than say the Balkenkruez (the square cross also used widely by the nazis - in English it is called a "greek cross" when not in the context of the nazis). For that matter, there is no ban on reproducing or displaying the "Totenkopf" or the "SS" ruin that not only symbolized the most ruthless of Hitler's troops, but also the very people that ran the concentration camps. One may argue that the balkenkruez was used by others before Hitler and that the totenkopf is really just the "jolly rodger" pirate symbol, so why should people get worked up about that? Well, it's already been pointed out that the same is true of the swastika.



So then, why do people get so worked up over a swastika in preference to all the other Nazi symbology. There are two reasons I can see.



1) the swastika alone was banned after WWII. Thus it became not only the banner for neo-nazis, but also the anti-banner for those opposing them (and yes, the ban on the swastika came long before any neo-nazi groups). In other words, the swastika is still politically symbolic, probably largely due to the very fact that it was banned. In the end, I think Germany would have been better off to ignore it like all the other symbology the Nazis adopted. Of course it was the only of those symbols on the Nazi flag, but still...



2) The swastika was the very first thing ever broadcast on TV, and in general the Nazis made sure to stick their flag in everone's face as often as possible (not unlike America in recent times - and yes I'm an American so I can say that without other American's being allowed to get too hacked off at me). Of course his sort of behavior with tends to make anyone resentful of anything if exposed to it long enough (e.g. the stars and stripes, which much of the world resnets seeing by now despite that Americans are somewhat more benign than Nazis), so what people remember about the 3rd Reich is the swastika. They may forget just about everything else about it, but they remember the swastika.



I personally fully support anyone trying to reclaim that symbol from the Nazis. Now I think a black swastika on a white circle in a red field is forever going to represent the 3rd Reich, and it probably should. But as a simple pattern it should be liberated from its own guilt and the guilt others force upon it, just as the German people should be.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
History of the swastika

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
i'm with you on supporting anyone wanting to reclaim the swastika from the nazi's

it was an important and frequently recurring symbol throughout many different cultures & eras in history. the swastika symbol can be found associated with buddhists, hindus, aztecs, ancient greeks and even celts

unfortunately, however noble its ancient heritage, i fear the symbol of the swastika has been forever tainted in the west because of its nazi association.

Written by: vanize

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One may argue that the balkenkruez was used by others before Hitler and that the totenkopf is really just the "jolly rodger" pirate symbol, so why should people get worked up about that?

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incidentally, the skull & crossbones, or jolly rodger, was a symbol of the knights templar (1100's - 1300's) centuries before it became known as a pirate symbol.

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
some good and valid points here

at the end of the day the swastika is just a mark on a surface, it in itself is neither good or evil, that is determined by peoples perception of the swastika, Hitlers Germany and Buddhism being two prime examples.
the swastika is a symbol that has become associated with nazi Germany. its origins, however, lie in many ancient cultures, symbolizing good fortune. in Buddhism, it is a symbol of the Buddha's heart and mind, sometimes appearing on the Buddha's chest in sculptural representations.

here is some info i found on the swastika:

"Chinese called it, "WAN" Zi, Japanese named it "MAN" Ji, Tibetan read it as "GYUNG-DRUNG" or GEG-GSANG. The word swastika is derived from the Sanskrit means, "conducive to well- being". S-vasti in Sanskrit is "It's well"

Swastika is a symbol of prosperity and good fortune and is widely dispersed in both the ancient and modern world. It originally represented the revolving sun, fire, or life. The swastika was widely utilized in ancient Mesopotamian coinage as well as appearing in early Christian and Byzantium art, where it was known as the gammadion cross. The swastika also appeared in South and Central America, widely used in Mayan art during that time period.

Swastika is an equilateral cross with arms bent at right angles, all in the same direction, usually the right, or clockwise. In North America, the swastika was a symbol used by the Navajos. The swastika still continues today to be an extensively used sign in Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism.

In Buddhism, a Swastika represents resignation. Usually found in the images of Buddha on His chest, palms, soles of feet. In Jainism, it delineates their seventh saint, and the four arms are also used to remind the worshiper of the four possible places of rebirth; the animal or plant world, in Hell, on Earth, or in the spirit world. To Hindus, the swastika with the arms bent to the left is called the sathio or sauvastika, which symbolizes night, magic, purity, and the destructive goddess Kali.

In both Hinduism and Jainism, the Swastika or sathio is used to mark the opening pages or their account books, thresholds, doors, and offerings. The swastika was a symbol for the Aryan people, a name which, in Sanskrit means "noble". The Aryans were a group of people who settled in Iran and Northern India. They believed themselves to be a pure race, superior to the other surrounding cultures.

Historical use of the Swastika
Was Atlantis the birthplace of the Swastika? Or The fabled motherland called Mu? Found on the genital shields of aboriginal Brazilian women. Greek priestesses branded Swastikas on their arms. Goddess figures dug up at ancient Troy by Dr. Schliemann have Swastikas on the vulva. Romans took the Swastika with them on their march across Europe. Most antiquarians agree that Egyptians had no Swastika except those taken there by Coptic Christians.

As an Eastern cultural symbol
A magical sign tattooed on women to ensure fertility. Gold weights from West Africa. A favorite ornament in China and Japan. Ninja throwing stars. Tattooed on monks in Tibet. The Dalai Lama's throne is always decorated with four Swastikas. In India people mark their cows, fields, homes, shrines with the Swastika, a sign of good luck and fertility. When the last czar of Russia was imprisoned with his family in 1917, the Romanoff girls embroidered lucky swastikas on fabric before their deaths by the Bolsheviks.


As a mystical symbol
Hindu uses. Sacred Fire. Ganesha. Every holy spot is marked with a Swastika. Sacred Heart of Buddha. Buddha's footprints marked with Swastikas. The Jains, who believe in non-violence, make the sign of the Swastika as often as Catholics make the sign of the cross. In Bali, Shiva's lingam (penis) is a Swastika. Christian symbol from the catacombs. Gnostic graffiti includes Swastikas and Stars of David side by side. Occult Swastikas include Theosophists, Rosicrucians, Masons, Golden Dawn, Transcendental Meditation, Pythagorus, Madame Blavatsky, Krishnamurti, Rudolf Steiner, William Butler Yeats. Aliester Crowley claimed Hitler stole the Swastika from him.

As an archetypal symbol
The Swavastika or backwards Swastika. Types of Swastikas. Various names for the Swastika-- Hakenkreuz, Gammadion, Fylfot, Tetraskelion, Meander. Amulets, talismans and hex signs.

Adolf Hitler adopted the left-handed symbol. During his campaign, 6 millions Jews died in his hand during WWII. Hence, the icon caused confusion to many Europeans and Jews to think it was a similiar icon used by the Eastern faiths (Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism). The right hand ( clockwise)Swastika used by these religions which practice ahimsa ( non-violence) since ancient time. It should never be mistaken as the left-hand (counterclockwise) Swastika .

The Germanic Swastika
Many ask about SS Swastika, why it was adopted, and what it symbolizes for National Socialism. The following is a brief commentary on the subject which we hope will clear up any confusion and explain the significance of the Swastika: Most people assume that it was Adolf Hitler who selected the Swastika for the National Socialist emblem. Adolf Hitler indeed designed the National Socialist flag and much of the insignia, but the Swastika was already earmarked for the party standard before he became a member of the German Worker's Party (DAP).

In 1919 Adolf Hitler was serving as an agent for the army, observing various nationalist and Folkish political parties, when he decided to join the German Worker's Party (DAP), which later became the National Socialist German Worker's Party (NSDAP). Although not well known, there was a very good reason for his decision to join this particular party. The German Worker's Party was founded, protected, and secretly financed by the Thule Gemeinschaft, referred to henceforth by its common English rendering of Thule Society, which was considered to be the most prestigious and powerful secret Folkish organization in Germany.

The Thule Society

The Thule society was a strongly anti-Jewish, anti-Marxist, Nordicist organization, which was dedicated to the creation of a Folkish State and the higher evolution of the Aryan race. They had a real understanding of the gulf between the working and the upper classes - and the necessity of closing that gap in order to realize the desired Folkish State. Its membership numbered a wide range of influential legal professionals, university professors, police officials, industrialists, physicians and scientists. Besides the German Worker's Party, The Thule Society subsidized the Oberland Freikorps and it controlled Bavaria's leading anti-Jewish newspaper; The Voelkischer Beobachter. It is quite revealing that Dietrich Eckart, Alfred Rosenberg, and Max Amann, who later became editor, assistant editor, and business manager of the VoelkischerBeobachter when it was sold to the NSDAP, were all Thule Society members.

The Swastika was the official symbol of the Thule Society. The Swastika was prominently displayed on the organization's letterheads and literature, and Swastika banners adorned its meetings. The NSDAP merely inherited the Swastika from its mentor, which, apparently, it ultimately absorbed as Thule Society members all became NSDAP members.

The Meaning of the Swastika

The only official reference to the meaning of the National Socialist Swastika which we have encountered is in Chapter 7 of the 2nd volume of Mein Kampf: "As National Socialists we see our program in our flag. In the red, we see the social idea of the movement, in the white, the nationalistic idea, in the Swastika, the mission of the struggle for the victory of Aryan man, and at the same time, also the victory of the idea of creative work, which in itself is, and will always be, anti-Semitic." This, of course, is probably only one aspect of a deeper meaning which was given to the Swastika, but we have never encountered reference to any such deeper meaning given by the Thule Society or the NSDAP. However, an investigation of some of the historical and esoteric uses of The Swastika certainly gives us some insight into its significance.
Most of us are aware that the Swastika is a sacred symbol in many lands and in many traditions. However, since the Thule Society was a Folkish Move"

I hope this sheds some light on what is undoubtedly a confusing issue.

i must be loosing my mind.............come back!!!!!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
from the history of the swastika that vanize posted

Written by:

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During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division

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it's sad that something that so recently as the beginning of the last century is already spoiled forever(???)

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
Fair play phiredancer, that's some good research there.

In the deleted thread I made the point that the Christian cross has been used as a symbol under which violence has been carried out for centuries. But over the years that has changed and the 'true' symbology of the cross has reemerged.

Anyways, my point was that the swastika's bloody history is still relatively new, and it's ancient meaning has been forgotten by many. However, through debates like this on HoP and other forums we can slowly bring that ancient meaning back.

A general shift in perception and mindset will probably take decades, but through education (friends, family, children) we can help reclaim the peaceful meaning of the swastika - it will be another step to putting the legacy of Nazism behind us.

Getting to the other side

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
nice one firepoise

it is a shame that so much sacred iconology has been perverted, a good book that sheds some light on this kind of thing is "The DaVinci Code" by Dan Brown, it touches upon the church changing some of the preceeding pagan beliefs and icons into what we commonly recognise today as well as the many mysteries and conspiracy theories surrounding DaVinci and his works.

i like this kind of discussion but feel i dont know enough about it and feel some of my views may be slightly mal-informed!!

i must be loosing my mind.............come back!!!!!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
I think we're all thinking a bit differently after reading that one... 'symbology' - a great word, not used enough And it must be the sign of a good writer that so many people are discussing his work.

Don't worry about 'not knowing enough about it'... the important thing is that you did the research, then shared it with us. Noone can be expected to know everything, but if you're prepared to do the work to find out - your views are just as valid as anyone else.

Take care x

Getting to the other side

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
This image of a 'nice' swastika (which someone else posted in the previous thread) seemed worth re-posting:


Non-Https Image Link




And here's part of my comment from the original thread:

Hrm. I know some tattooists, and tattoo collectors, who will speak passionately in defence of the swastika as a symbol of good things. Most of them have swastika tattoos themselves, although some don't. I'm willing to believe these people are trying to reclaim a symbol that they know more about than I do, and which they think is worth the struggle of reclamation in the face of very strong negative cultural bias.



What I don't believe in is anyone who picks a username referring to the Third Reich and then expects people to believe that their use of the swastika is meant to be related to something other than Nazi Germany.



Anyway, personally I think it's a crap avatar, but that's purely an aesthetical judgement - I just think it looks naff. If that's what you choose to represent yourself, fair enough. I wouldn't like to see sites I frequented banning the use of swastikas, or even the expounding of Nazi beliefs, because I firmly believe that freedom of speech is an 'all or nothing' item.

"Talk hard"

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
I once saw someone who had 'just' gotten a swastika tatoo, but he was really pissed when I pointed out that he had gotten it backwards and he actually had a permanent Navajo symbol of peace on his shoulder.

Regardless of the meaning, the swastika, like an American flag, a Star of David, or a Mercedes logo, is just a symbol. It is meaningless. It's a picture. It's the meaning you place on that symbol that you need to recognize. Crosses, for example, have been used for countless religions, not just Christianity. Some symbols have dozens of meanings. In the west, holding your hand palm up and curling your finger towards you means "come here." I understand in the middle east it is grounds for castration... The point is you can't persecute symbols, worry about the people displaying it and the message they're trying to convey.
Like George Carlin says, "Leave symbols to the symbol-minded."

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
Not much to add. This thread is a really good read and I think it helps to open the eyes of everybody.

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
Very interesting thread. My own opion is that the swastika is (at least in the west) connect with too much pain for it to be recliamed for a long time yet. There is little point in saying "it's just a symbol" because firstly people connect heavily with images that objectively mean much less, such as showing someone the middle finger or the picture of children running from a Vietnamese village. Secondly in the west we learn from an earily age what this simbol meant for 6 million people.

On a different note, what is this Balkenkruez/Greek Cross? I've tried googling but can't find any consistant images.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
On the subject of symbols has anyone seen this before? Apparently it, like the swastica, is found all over the world and has many connections with many religions. Apparently it is particlarly connected with (especially female) fertility and the moon and its cycles but also peace and all that good hippy stuff.

Sadly I can't find any better pictures of it

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

Posted: 15th Oct 2004

Written by: Domino

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On a different note, what is this Balkenkruez/Greek Cross? I've tried googling but can't find any consistant images.

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Non-Https Image Link




basically a greek cross is a 'plus' sign (+), a cross where all arms are equal. a swastika has a greek cross at its center for example. The German Balkenkreuz is usually dipicted as a black greek cross with white borders as pictured above, though there are of course many variations,including a cross that consists of those white borders around a suggested (but actually not there) greek cross. Balkenkreuzes were seen on all 3rd Reich vehicles, often to the exclusion of swastikas (though aircraft usually had small swastikas on thier tails).

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
Here's a controversial swastica- a Coco Cola promotional toy robot released in Honk Kong-




Non-Https Image Link




Again, much of the web discussion on it is regarding the swastica as a evil, nazi symbol.



To me, that seems to be cultural arrogance- assuming that just because of its role in recent western history, the rest of the world, including the east where it's been seen as a perfectly innocent symbol for millenia, should also adopt a highly negative view of it.



The full report is here: -



https://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_775737.html?menu=news.quirkies

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 15th Oct 2004
Another misconception that crops up in a lot of discussions is the contrast between the 'good' swastica, and the 'bad' swastica ie that the swastica used by the nazis turned in the opposite direction to that used by buddhists etc.



This isn't true, swasticas appearing on ancient Eastern statues/ritual objects, could be either left or right handed.



I think this is important to note as one of the ways some people are attempting to 'reclaim' the swastica, is to, allbeit unknowingly, perpetuate this incorrect left/right distinction.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 16th Oct 2004
I went and saw some Buddhist monks last year, and they had the walls decorated with nice mats and with Swastika's on them. I think it was Chinese for Peace....It was weird seeing it symbolising something good when it's origin had been taken and transformed into symbol with such evil behind it...

We get some 'nazi punk' idiots who paint swastika's over our school and down the street, it frustrates me so much. It's a symbol that stands out to me so much, I can't help but notice and be suss about it

.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

Posted: 16th Oct 2004

Written by: onewheeldave

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Another misconception that crops up in a lot of discussions is the contrast between the 'good' swastica, and the 'bad' swastica ie that the swastica used by the nazis turned in the opposite direction to that used by buddhists etc.

This isn't true, swasticas appearing on ancient Eastern statues/ritual objects, could be either left or right handed.

I think this is important to note as one of the ways some people are attempting to 'reclaim' the swastica, is to, allbeit unknowingly, perpetuate this incorrect left/right distinction.

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well, this is partly correct as far as I know...

in some cultures, there is no distinction between the clockwise and counter clockwise swastikas. In others, there is a difference in the direction.

However, to my knowledge, saying the one the Nazis used is the one with the bad meaning and the oppositely directed one has the good meaning is false and a product of the fact that people are reversing the previous symbology (either knowlingly or unwittingly) so that the Nazi one has the negative meaning.

But onewheeldave is absolutely correct that in many cultures, the direction of the swastika was meaningless.

Much of this is covered in the history of the swastika link I supplied earlier (including the root of the word, which is very interesting and in fact clearly demostrates the positive aspect of the symbol).

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 16th Oct 2004
Sometimes however, I think people deliberately take offence to it; a strange kind of matyrdom, I don't know. But I remember watching a TV show where well-off American families went to live in remote parts of various developing countries. And one family went to live in a small village in India.

The American family were Jewish, and during their stay in India where they were supposed to learn about their culture, they were presented with elements of the local families' religion - including the swastika. And this family took huge offence at being presented with the swastika by an Indian family in a remote farming village who probably had never heard of the Nazis, let alone that their symbol was the swastika. And I just felt that they were being offended by it simply because they could.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 16th Oct 2004
Without going over everything I posted in the previous thread, I just think that sensitivity is needed when using the swastika. Because, to some (many) people, it symbolises great pain and suffering, on a scale which is barely imaginable. And it is still used to symbolise those things by some very nasty people.

However, that understanding needs to go two ways. If someone presents you with a swastila with good intentions, trying to be friendly, because their culture uses it for that reason, then you have no right to be angry with that person. However, I think just through the act of conditioning it would hard not to be internally offended by that, especially if it was a total surprise. Unfair, yes, but the nature of the mind - a symbol is given meaning, and presentation of that symbol generates that meaning in the mind.

If "F**k off" meant "nice to meet you" in another country, I'd be fairly taken aback.

Generally in the west, and I do mean generally, people have no specialist knowledge of the swastika. Generally in the west, people associate it with the Nazis. So generally in the west, the Swastika is an image that offends, because obviously the nazis are about as offensive as you can get. So... sensitivity.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

Posted: 16th Oct 2004
I think a sensible rule of thumb is a black swastika on a white circle in the centre of a red flag is the horrible one.

Around my neck I wear a silver pendant with a swastika and the CND symbol side by side and I have had a mural of a swastika of intertwining branches and leaves on my chimney breast in my living room for around 10 years as a tribute to the power, strength, harmony and everchanging nature of, um, nature.

It is always noticed at parties etc and by visitors and I explain my reasons for it being there and most people react positively.

The only time it has led to any disharmony was when a friend of a friend, when we were alone in the kitchen at a party, said something along the lines of how cool it was to see a racist so proud! The disharmony it caused was me turfing him out of my house in short shrift.

I think it's kind of unlucky for good luck charm to have been so abused and fully applaud the campaign to reclaim it from Nazism.

It's smashing to be back x

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
When i was a young lad i saw the swastika somewhere or it just "came" to me,so i took one of my crayons and drew it all over my wall.It was just a fun symbol,I didnt know about Nazi's or Peace Symbols,I just had fun drawing it.I think that shows how the symbol can just appeal in its meaning of balance and peace and suggested motion.

Spinning makes my world go round

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
don't get me wrong here, hitler was a mass murdering [censored] head, but when i see the swastica i don't connect it with hitler/nazis unless someone mentions it

to me the swastica is mainly a symbol of balance, and is thus sacred like the symbol of the ying and yang... but i live in a jewish area so everyone hates me when i say that

Clean for 6 months and counting... ah yeah, that's nice.

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
one question... is there another word OTHER than the 'swaztika.' it seems to be an obviously german word, and as long as it will be used, will have the context of the german history - mainly the nazi's.

if the word for the symbos is replaced by another non-german word, surely the symbol will gradually become more accepted by westerners? and perhaps only the dedicated neo-nazis and their beloved aryan supremacatic ideas will use the german word?

surely theres must be words in other cultures to describe the symbol.

as a interesting side note, many neo-nazi's now use an amended swastika flag - with three arms rather than four.

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
check vanizes link on the history of the swastica-



https://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm



according to which 'swastica' is the Indian name for the symbol.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
actually, germans don't even call it a swastika, and swastika is definitely not a German word. Here it is called a 'Hakenkreuz', which means 'hooked cross'.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
I see it, and I am revulsed.

Dont get me wrong, I dont hate you guys for it, and I know its correct history now, thanks la, but years of seeing swastikas on the bad guys flags have made me conditioned against it. I couldn't have one anywhere near me, as I see it connected with evil, BUT I do want not to be conditioned against it.

Symbols are powerful, but they are, after all, just paint or ink or pixels...

Sorry, but thats how I feel...

PS anyone know a good hypnotist?

ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!