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Page: 12
Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:I don't usually do posts that have a political theme or agenda, because they so often seem to degrade into mud-slinging. And yet, given the date and in the light of the recent rash of politically motivated posts.....tonight i feel the need to start a thread on the topic of patriotism, as it occurs to me that patriotism and politicism are two separate entities. I often have problems with government policies and the politics and politicians involved in my government, but I don't like to bitch about it unless I am prepared to actually attempt to do something about it. And that is exactly the beauty of a democratic government...you can actually do something about it, even when it seems your efforts are lost in the throng.

Tonight I went with friends in a boat up the river to the annual fireworks show, where I was pleased to see as huge a crowd lining the shores and dotting the river as there ever is- perhaps even more than usual. People were not just there this year to watch the spectacle, they were really reveling in the moment, fully cognizent of the solidarity and strength we all share. Now this all might sound corny to some of you but I believe that one of our greatest strengths as a nation has nothing to do with our military might or wealth or whatever...it's our ability to stand together, ignore petty differences, and unite in the face of adversity. Seems like the more difficult the threat, the stronger we are. Independence Day is always a great party, but this year when those fireworks started going off with the Star Spangled Banner playing, there were many that I saw with tears in their eyes, hands over hearts or at the least sober and pride-filled faces. The sentiment that appeared to be shared by all present was
GOD DAMN IT'S GOOD TO BE AN AMERICAN!!!!

On behalf of myself, my friends who are with me still, and especially the friends I lost on 9/11 to the deranged beliefs of a psycho's idea of what America is all about....
Happy Independence Day! Be strong and proud and live your lives to the fullest every day, with no regrets!

*gets off her soap box before someone decides to knock her off*


"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Nyx, I dont know if it is because I am so pumped over tonights spin or what but you just put a smile on my face or at least added to it Thank you.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:get a room you two!! hee hee j/p
thats true mike very true. in my eyes those people still arent true americans no matter what kind of honorable deed they try to mask there hate with. there just like terrorists trying to say the koran tells them to blow up innocent women and children..


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hmm a room what a novle idea... I thought cars and allyways were the best but rooms!!! Ohh my!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:Hey! Don't i have any say in this?

Hmmm, noe where did that walk-in cooloer with the ice cream go?


"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:That's just the thing, lightbug. It seems like many of the loudest "patriots" want to throw all Arabs/Muslims out of "their country" and "keep America for Americans." Then they have the chutzpah to talk about this being the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave."

Yeah, we're really free when they don't want people to be allowed to practice their own religion. And five big twenty-somethings beating up a five-foot woman is really brave.

Well, gee, if that's patriotism, then I want nothing to do with it.

There are people out there who actually understand that freedom means that other people are going to be allowed to do stuff that you would spend a lifetime opposing. But true patriotism is being willing to give your life to defend their right to do it, rather than trying to pass laws banning it.

And so when I see those same people waving their flags while they try to pass laws banning flag burning (and I'm an Eagle Scout...I'd never desecrate a flag...unless they banned flag burning), it just poisons the entire idea of patriotism to me. And I want nothing to do with it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Cazzar
member
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 53
Posted:I really don't like the way that americans seem to forget about the rest of the world...sure america is a very strong counrty..in population..in government..military..overall they will always step in in a time of need...but you have to remeber this is only becasue the goverment does so..the people don't have a sy on this..when i think of the amount of poverty in the US, the crime, i'm thinking why don't they help their own country first. I have seen other places in the world that are far more exotic and beautiful in the world...and it all depends on what you classify as beautiful, correct? I get the feeling that everywhere an american goes they are always comparing the country to america..ie oh well the coloseums are lovely..but i think that the blah blah in blah is so much more fantastic...sometimes i feel that americans are so wrapped up and involved in their country and how great it is that they forget to open their eyes and see that there's a whole world out there..don't get me wrong..patriotism is a fabulous thing what ever country you may be in and home is always home..but I have to agree with dibs in this one..I just think it gets a bit sickening..america has so many downfalls. It is far from perfect. I don't mean to be offensive at all! I'm just saying that the country has it's imperfections as all places do.

quote: no one i would call a true american would do anything like that ok Light bug, but then aren't you picking and choosing what makes an american...those are the type of people who are letting patriosim get way the hell out of hand..but to them they are still being patriotic..the may think people who don't do that aren't true americans..but you are correct they can also be classified as terrorists. It ridiculous some of the things people might be thinking they are doing with there countries sometimes.
peace out
cazzar


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Cazzar:
I really don't like the way that americans seem to forget about the rest of the world...{innocently}
Waitasec, waitasec. "Rest of the world...?" You're saying there's more to the world than the U.S.A.?

Like, there are people who live outside the U.S.A.? On Earth? Where????

Woah. Far out, dude...

So, like, why would they do that? Why don't they live here?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Cazzar
member
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 53
Posted:EEKKKKK OK I GET THE SARCASIM...and i'm sorry..i know they know that there is the rest of the world but..iut the way they perceive it i guess..
* feels ashamed for making big generalization *
humblest apologies!!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:No Nyx you dont get a say in the matter but a walk in freezer sounds fun!!

Any how, the way I look at it is that if you wish to come to America and contribute to society. (not just live off of others work) Then come on over I dont care what you look like who you worship or where your originaly from.

Also I know there are beautiful places in the world, I have been to some of them.

I also feel that, when America helps someone else, the world frowns on it, and if we dont help the world frowns on it.

Back to being Damned if you do, damned if you dont.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Cazzar:
EEKKKKK OK I GET THE SARCASIM...and i'm sorry..i know they know that there is the rest of the world but..iut the way they perceive it i guess..
* feels ashamed for making big generalization *
humblest apologies!! Oh gawd, I spent about ten minutes on that post trying to make it sound like a friendly joke and not sarcastic. And, despite my efforts, you took it as sarcasm and not light humor. I have failed! {sob, sob}

Oh well, I tried. Anyways, I meant it as light humor, not as sarcasm.

Sorry 'bout that, Cazzar. Maybe I should have used this smiley at some point instead of ?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Cazzar
member
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 53
Posted:It ok Mike ! I'm not offended in the least haha!!
I dish out as much as I get haha! Dont be sorry!
(((((((((((((((peace hug))))))))))))))))
That's the problem with writing though aye! Can't tell what the expression is !
Take care
cazzar


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Bummer I was just gonna hand Mike the keys to the semi and let him run you over!! Take all fun out of life why dont you!!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:yes cazzar i am saying what an american should be.. an american can practice any religion or lifestyle as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else
or hindor anyone else.. an american who understands what america is about has the heart common decency and respect for others choices in life.. thats what supposed to be going on.. of course theres always bad apples. i think if we give them a severe beating when we see them they will eventually move to a country were blind hatred is welcome...

quote:the people don't have a sy on this..when i think of the amount of poverty in the US, the crime, i'm thinking why don't they help their own country first we do have some say in what goes on with foreign relations.. we elect the people who make those decisions.. be realestic we cant have people who know nothing about a situation voteing on how to handle it.. thats crazy... thats why elect people to do that.. the fact that we aid other countries while we could use help is tribute to just what a great nation we live in.. although we could use some help it would be kinda hard to turn your back on a country full of people starving and dieing from disease (because there goverment or rulers cant get there act together or dont care) to build houses and feed people in this country (who for the most part just dont want to get off there can and get a job. [note i said for the most part])


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:and of course you get a say nyx... what kind of an animal do you think ray is?

you can get a room at best western or holiday in...

hee hee j/p


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Cazzar
member
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 53
Posted:* cazzar runs away with tail between legs *

Ok dont' get all defensive on me! Everyone has an opinion on the US in the entire world some are good and some are bad..mine is merely neutral as i know that the US does a lot of good in the world and i totally recognize that, but I don't think they help themselves as much as they should!!
..i'm glad you said most part...as i would have had to kick you in the teeth heheh..no, there is a lot of people out there who have very unfortunate circumstances and we don't want to start judging them...but I know that america is the striongest humanitarium country out there....and the majority of the world knows that!
And we just express our patriotism individually right...no one wants to believe that their country is second best...especially if it isn't like a third world country..everyone wants to be equal..and that's why a lot of people immigrate to america right! So they can be free! Ok i'm just saying sometimes they rub it in a bit too much for peoples liking.
But nevertherless..I hate getting into stuff like this because it turns into an arguement...and i'm not fond of conflict so i'll just say...
Patriosim is a great thing..and all of us should feel lucky to live in countries that have such freedom.....at least we don't live in mud huts and have to walk 40 miles for a jug of malaria infected water, and be put into slavery at the age of 8, right..so we should appreciate that..instead of arguing oover it. i'm sure people in that situation would cut off their right arm and left leg to get to any country like the ones we lives in....?
take care and i hopp eyou guys aren't too angry with me.......
peace
cazzar


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Cazzar, I aint argueing but if you want me to... the sky is green damnit!!

Any how yes we all express our patriotisim differently and it means different things to different people. Either I missed something or I am just blind but I dont really recall seeing anyone disagreing with you too much, ohh and the semi thing was a joke so please dont take ofence to that.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:Hey Ray, i'm having a string of bad days...can i borrow the keys to the semi? Please? My little Maxima just doesn't cut it in the "mowing down people who aggravate you" department!

"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Sure Nyx *tosses her the keys*

If you trash my transmition, no icecream for you!!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:fair enough cazzar.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:maximas are cool!!!

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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ufo8mycat
journeyman
Location: london
Member Since: 24th Dec 2001
Total posts: 60
Posted:"And so when I see those same people waving their flags while they try to pass laws banning flag burning (and I'm an Eagle Scout...I'd never desecrate a flag...unless they banned flag burning), it just poisons the entire idea of patriotism to me. And I want nothing to do with it." (Mike)

err....

This is what undermines a democratic society that tries a little tooo hard to be civilised.

A society based on tolerance gets flustered when it comes up against irrational people who dont want to play by the rules. Do you allow freedom of speech to somebody preaching hatred? Do you allow someone representation with their left hand while their right hand is lighting the fuse to a bomb?

... do you let someone burn a flag while claiming to be a part of what that flag represents?
(maybe...)

Society based on tolerance is beautiful and the only peacfeul way forward.

But, it needs a condition:

The society is tolerant for those who are, and intolerant of those who are not.

Who decides what is tolerant or not?
(is the next question)

errr... if you disallow people the right to be happy and live freely (by restrictive ideology, racism, discrimination, terrorism), then you should have no place in their society, and should not expect any mercy from them.

You means you as an individual. not a race. not a generalisation, you as a person.

This helps us deal with those 'lunatics who make the sadistic choice' (goooo spiderman!). I dont feel like i should placate anyone who blows themself up in my cafe or on my bus, crashes planes into our towers. Nor should i placate those who fund these people, who blow them kisses and build them statues, idolize them in textbooks and teach their children about 'the Great Satan'

So hey hey, democracy with weapons to defend itself.

makes sense?


it's not that i mean to set things on fire...

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Let's just take flag-burning as an example. If I light a flag in protest, assuming nobody catches on fire in the process, who am I hurting? Nobody. I'm making a statement. It's speech. I'm saying I'm really pissed off about something the U.S.A. is doing.

If I light a bomb in protest, on the other hand, I'm hurting a lot of people. Speech it may be, but as one Supreme Court justice said "Freedom of Speech does not allow one to shout 'fire!' in a crowded movie house."

The point is that you have to decide if you're directly harming someone else (and none of this "emotional harm" crap...I mean PHYSICAL HARM OR RESTRICTION OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS). If you are, then it's no longer "free speech."

You don't have to like my behavior. But unless you or someone else is directly harmed by it, you have no right to tell me I can't do it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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pozee
old hand
Location: san diego
Member Since: 27th Jul 2001
Total posts: 886
Posted:(and none of this "emotional harm" crap)

just a thought about emotional harm being crap,

you ever been in love there mike?

not trying to chastise, i see your point. if i want to run my car off the road into a tree in a deserted forest i should be able to.

or if i wanted to blow up mysts car in a safe environment i should be able to. j/k

[ 19 July 2002, 07:13: Message edited by: pozee ]


anyone got a light?

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Pozee, if we're going to count "emotional harm" then I can come out and claim that you're harming me when your heart beats.

Yeah, I've been in love. People need to realize that they do not have a right to emotional protection. If you don't like what I'm doing, then don't friggin' watch.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:with democracy comes great responsability.. you need to respect other people and respect life.. i love how terrorists and such try to hide behind our beleifs but they are so against us right..
its ree-god-damn-diculous.. there childish and to proud to admit there own faults.. they would much rather blame them on us.. they send there own children on SUICIDE MISSIONS to kill other peoples children!!! my god. they have no respect for life and to hide that behind a religion is ignorant and disguesting. in my opinion they have no rights except the right to die and be a very cheap funeral. i have no respect for your life if you dont respect life yourself. especially if you dont even respect your own childs life.


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:the point of free speech is not so little crap weasels can get away with blowing things up. its really more of a privlage then a right.. a privlage your born with in america.. that privlige can and should be takin from certain dumb asses.. i dont care if ray burns a flag i can turn away if it bothers me (which it doesnt).
you can say or do anything as long as it doesnt stop me from doing what i need to do or hurt anyone. thats the decipline. the minute you start acting like a giant 3 year old and start destroying to get your way youve crossed the line and you no longer have your rights.


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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