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Forums > Other Toys > The official HOP juggling "I just learnt a new move" thread

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Well, seeing as we are starting to take over the

"Offical HOP "I just learnt a new move" thread", I thought we should contain this bit just to jugglerisng and the throwing and dropping of balls, clubs, rings and other miscellaneous juggling props.

Today I mothered learning 441.

I had a few throws of 531 but only 1 catch. I think my 5 is too high.

Note for the mods: I DEMAND on behalf of the jugglers on this site, as has been done with the aforementioned "Poi moves thread", that this one is made a sticky thread.

Otherwise its just favouritism really....


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Megafish
BRONZE Member since Jun 2004

lurking...
Location: Faversham UK

Total posts: 208
Posted:ooh, arches, i love it when people start talking about that, its a well complicated pattern. See, the way i've been thinking about it, there's forwards jugglin and then there's backwards juggling (lets limit our abstraction to cascades for the time being), that makes sense right, forwards and backwards, i often see backwards called time reversed; i'm sure there's a miriad of other things.

then there's the half shower, which is {forwards-backwards} (i've put this in brackets to indicate that this repeats indefinatly - until i get bored) obviously you can start with either your right or left hand (i love the way i automatically use the word "obviously")

then it starts getting confusing.. what i consider to be tennis is {forwards-forwards-backwards} with a normal cascade going round with a ball "tennising" over the top. before anyone gets stroppy there's the other 423 tennis as well, but the fact that i called that 423 means there's a whole other kettle of fishes worth of nonsense to be said for that trick, i'm sure coleman can elabourate on that for me. what i think is interesting here is that since there are three "phases" to the "cycle" if the first "iteration" of the pattern starts on the right hand the second iteration of the three phase cycle MUST start on the left side (otherwise the universe would stop working right? either that or you'd have three hands, or you'd have just started juggling a different pattern)

but arches i had always taken to be {forwards-backwards-backwards}... is that what you guys was getting at above? again a three phase cycle.

QUESTION. i'm fairly certain that my forwards mill's mess goes {forwards-forwards-backwards}, thats right isn't it?... (with the backwards ball being the U-ball - this is something i'm not 100% sure about)

Cole and DsAds, you've both shown me three different backwards mill's messes, so far i have one, which i'm pretty sure is the "time reversed" mill's mess {backwards-backwards-forwards}. what i want to know is (assuming my curly parenthesis system makes sense) what do you guys reckon the other two backwards mill's are? and does our combined juggling intellect reckon that there would be any others? assuming that there are 2^3 (to the power of) different ways that a three stage pattern with two different states (dare i pull the binary logic rabit out of my hat?) can be permutated. That makes sense doesn't it? shall i go and ask the guys on rec.juggling what they think?

(DsAds - just in case you don't remember showing them to me, i seem to recall the portugese guy, being particularly shocked to find out that not only was there infact a backwards mill's mess but there were three, and the guy showing them to him could speak fluent portugese... well i thought it was funny... even if i was tripping my tits off)

does any of that make sense to anyone? if it doesn't i think i may have to go get myself a labotomy and book myself a place on the next big brother.

pat x

my head hurts


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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MTGjumper


member
Location: Notts

Total posts: 84
Posted:Your head hurts!? Very lengthy, and probably worthwhile to pointing out the time reversed thingy majiggys and the different states affect a pattern and the amount of iterations a pattern goes before it loops and if it will loop indefinately and determining the amount of time reversed mills' messes there are. Its a shame that flew completely over me...

When you say forwards and backwards, do you mean normal and reverse eg cascade and reverse cascade. If it is it makes a bit more sense.

*looks back at post*

Yep, everything before the question now makes sense.

Stab in the dark regarding the time-reversed mills' mess that you have (or have not got, since I don't understand time-reversed thingy-majiggy): if you do shower on each side for three throws (one iteration on one side) but instead of changing on the carry under throw (so it becomes mills' mess, if you now what I mean) switch on the one after the carry under throw. Is this just a distortion of Mills' Mess or time-reversed mm or something?

Hope somebody understood that.


Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Give a man a set of fire clubs (see above)

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:My time-reversed MM involves throwing under-out-over on each side instead of over-out-under. I think I can literally stop normal MM and go backwards with it, but it gets a bit confusing ubblol And I'm pretty sure it ain't what I read TRMM was. But then again, I think I've read half a dozen different explainations...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Megafish
BRONZE Member since Jun 2004

lurking...
Location: Faversham UK

Total posts: 208
Posted:sorry dudes, that woz like the mega compilicated way of going about saying all that stuff, i'm doing a degree in computing and i like using curley brackets, that and i really love trying to work out siteswaps in mills mess, i'm not hughely good at it but i love trying to work it all out. MTGjumper, from the sounds of it you know what i mean, by iteration i just mean doing the same thing again next time around. excuse me if i use the word backwards instead of reverse



perhaps i should have said that all of that was using the old 333333.... siteswappy thingy, all i know is that i have been shown 3 backwards standards mill's and one forwards one, presumably there should be another two forwards ones; at least i like to think there should be.



SpiralX, as far as i can describe it, i found my backwards mills (which i'm pretty sure is the standard timereverse one) by finding the backwards windmills first then the 5 beat, TBQH it looks pretty much exactly the same as the forwards one, in fact all of this stuff looks pretty samey... its the realm of juggling tricks for jugglers out to impress jugglers, stick in an elbow catch and the machine and it starts looking interesting. I think i'll save trying to explain it all further until i have a digital video camera pointing at me or i'm actually talking to you in the flesh :-)



just as long as it all goes over this "pre" geezas head i'm more than happy

EDITED_BY: Megafish (1140614504)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:to mister pat:



i think you have reached confuzzlement through over-simplification...



1. mills mess is made up of all inverse cascade throws: {backwards-backwards-backwards}

its a cool pattern since both the hand positions and the throw types contribute to the paths that the balls follow (and give the pattern its unique shape).



spiralx's description of a reverse mills above is a funky mills.



its more inverse than reverse as the throws remain the same but the arm positions are switched so that all throws with the arm crossed on top become throws with the arm crossed below.



time reverse mm is exactly what it says although doing it, it doesn't feel like you're doing everything backwards at all.



all throws are made in the middle to the outside of the pattern.

so necessarily, the carries must go from the outside to the inside of the pattern and all normal throws become reverse and vice versa.

clicky for a slowed down anim of trmm





2. the balls in a cascade and the balls in a reverse cascade travel along the same paths, just in different directions.

as such, to change bewteen a normal cascade and a reverse cascade you either need to stop to clear the balls' paths in the air or you need to slightly change the shape of the pattern (to use new paths for the balls so there are no collisions) until all the balls are travelling in the same direction.

does that make sense?

i.e. a reverse cascade has the balls following the same path as with a normal cascade except the balls are travelling in the other direction - the balls in a cascade are caught in the same position as the balls in a reverse cascade are thrown from.





so, mixing inverse and normal cascade throws from the same hand positions would result in collisions.



this means the position of where the throws are made from must be adjusted slightly, and so for tricks like half showers and, more noticably, tennis, we have a reverse-like throw that is actually made from a position slightly further out to the side than a normal reverse throw.



this slight adjustment means that the ball is on a path that clears part or all of the pattern (often called an 'over-the-top' throw) and thus avoids collisions.

specifically, this type of throw ensures that the throwing and catching positions for normal and reverse throws are not the same.



compare half showers with all inside throws and see where the paths cross and then with over-the-top throws for the high ball (this will have to be with 4+ balls to make sense).





these often intuitive types of changes to the pattern are hard to identify with just three balls but if you look closely, they are there to see.



arches is a great example of what you can do to a pattern just by changing the throw and catch positions with a reverse cascade.



take a look at the link i posted above and find arches in the pattern list - technically, those throws could be classed as reverse or normal since there is no direction of scoop nor are there any balls on the same path (or for that matter on any paths that cross others) smile





hope that makes at least a little sense?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:GEEKS!!! ubblol ubblol ubblol

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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MTGjumper


member
Location: Notts

Total posts: 84
Posted:Im really, really lost now. I want to know what the TRMM looks like now, but Java's not installed at the moment.

But i did just manage 5bmm for 7 catches!!! Go me! Can anyone here actually do 5bmm for a decent amount of time?

And if anyone wants a challenge, could they try- 555144633mm, and tell me if its difficult, looks good etc. please.


Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Give a man a set of fire clubs (see above)

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Megafish
BRONZE Member since Jun 2004

lurking...
Location: Faversham UK

Total posts: 208
Posted:Cole, yes, you are correct, i sat down and thought about it and yes you are definatly right. When i juggle mills mess it is definatly backwards backwards backwards...



However i don't quite get what you mean about about collisions when mixing backwards and forwards throws, i don't want to bite the hand that feeds at this point (information that is), but if the balls were to colide it wouldn't be juggling, dropping with style maybe but not juggling; at what point did anyone say that our hands were supposed to stay in the same place, staff spinners and poisters are always going on about having to move your body out of the way, i like to call it dancing, although i get "what you mean" i can safely say that when i mix forwards and backwards throws (with three and four balls) there is no risk of collision, i would also argue that although the path the balls take in the air is the altered, surely the distance that they travel is (nearly) the same, the nearly allows for all of those Dwell time, lag time, throw height thingies (which i'd like to convieniently hide under the title of esoteric philosophy, since even most jugglers who do it all the time don't really understand what any of this stuff is and usually refer to it as "feel". And i'm gonna need to see some serious maths and statistical testing before i believe otherwise. I'm not gonna get mad about it though, cos it doesn't really matter, and i do get the irony that i haven't provided any maths/statistics/video evidence myself, but i'm still gonna need it, we should get the government to invest some money in researching this stuff, future generations will thanks us. i don't really think i had a point in the first place so i think i'll just leave it here. either that or i can borrow pre's spade and keep on digging for a bit :-)



peace, i'm gonna go figure out what i'm talking about

EDITED_BY: Megafish (1140622549)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:basically, i mean that if you want your reverse cascade to look *exactly* like your normal cascade but run backwards on a video, then:

- the catches will be made where the throws were (and vice versa)
- the balls will travel along the same paths, just in the opposite direction

so if you transition *directly* between these two patterns, the balls will be landing in the same place they are to be thrown in and when you make that throw, you will have two balls travelling in opposite directions, along the same path.

thus, when we transition between normal and reverse cascade, we necessarily modify the reverse pattern during the transition to avoid the collisions, then the pattern can settle into an exact reverse of the normal cascade.

we know (from patterns like mills mess, arches and so on) that if you throw a ball from a different position and/or catch in a different position, it changes the path of the balls in the air and in turn, the overall shape of the pattern.


i think the most important thing to remember is this: a ball's path in the air is always a parabola - the thing that makes a throw 'normal' or 'reverse' is only where it is thrown from in the pattern and where it is caught.


if you now try to work out what that means the throws must be in trmm, the only possible conclusion is that they are all normal cascade rather than reverse cascade throws ubbloco


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land

Total posts: 382
Posted:confused

umm peace


Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:...

This thread has long posts? 0_o. Might read them later.

Anyroad, I managed a reaaallly long run of 4 clubs yesterday, maybe > 1 minute, I don't know.


Willy - is bad for your health...

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I should've said that the underarm throws are from the middle outwards to where I catch smile
EDITED_BY: spiralx (1140690849)


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: spiralx

I should've said that the underarm throws are from the middle outwards to where I catch smile



in trmm *all* of the throws should be from the middle out.

just as in normal mills mess, all the throws are from the outside to the middle smile

jonny, stop being confused now.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land

Total posts: 382
Posted:Fine hehe





I once saw someone do reverse time or if not true reverse MM and it was odd.

I stopped thinking about it some time ago, and my confusion was over meditate

If I don't look too hard at the stuff above, I should stay Zen cool



Also, today, I did 15 backcrosses on doubles in a row bounce2 bounce

Then I did 13. And was all superstitous and worried that it couldn't be my last run.

Then I did 14, twice! Splendid.



I then catched the first club in a 3up pirhouett that I still can't spell,

But I couldn't catch a 3up half pillow-ette. Which was silly.


Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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MTGjumper


member
Location: Notts

Total posts: 84
Posted:I managed 666000mmm. Its not to difficult. Nice and pretty how the balls loop one one side. Its bit like continuous shower flashes. So pwetty.

5b- managed a few 190s yesterday, but nothin over 200. I still have about 20 days left to beat 400 catches, Hexagonic!


Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Give a man a set of fire clubs (see above)

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Beth


Beth

Miss Whippy
Location: Cornwall & Oxford

Total posts: 1262
Posted:Although not as impressive as what you proper juggler boys have learnt i learnt two things today! I havent been practicing very much recently due to muchos deadlines but tonight i learnt mills and burkes with clubs, so i am satisfied biggrin

Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:Burkes with clubs looks lovely. smile

Willy - is bad for your health...

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Beth


Beth

Miss Whippy
Location: Cornwall & Oxford

Total posts: 1262
Posted:i've only managed 4 take outs so far as i have knackered my wrist, big bruise from evil clubs, but not bad for a nights work biggrin

Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: coleman

Written by: spiralx

I should've said that the underarm throws are from the middle outwards to where I catch smile



in trmm *all* of the throws should be from the middle out.


I keep wording it badly, moo. All my throws are normal cascade throws from the centre outwards smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Trying to learn Burke's made me sad. And almost destroyed several things in my kitchen ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:I decided to attempt to go one better - Rubensteins with clubs. It's not too hard to get into...

Willy - is bad for your health...

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:I just learnt my first contact juggling ball trick....I don't know what it is called but it is basic (only started learning last night) where you put it on the back of your hand, throw it up and catch it in the same position without the damn thing rolling off....

I am starting to get the one where you start on the back of your hand it it ends up in your palm (looks like you roll it over your fingertips into your palm)


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Beth


Beth

Miss Whippy
Location: Cornwall & Oxford

Total posts: 1262
Posted:Rubensteins with clubs? how the feck? Is the 'clawed' club flat?? I do not understand this craziness! Burkes is bad enough.... chops next methinks.... but rubys? thats just insane! ubbloco

Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:for swirly tricks with clubs, i have to go for romeo's revenge - the chop bit of the pattern feels just lovely smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:started my new juggling regime the other day.

frown

i can't juggle

(but i did get 10 catches wall plane 4c...)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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DsAds


Poi? Never!
Location: London

Total posts: 316
Posted:Wow loads has been discussed since i last looked here. Pat vagely remember showing the TRMM but am confused as to your Portuguese person bit, was there another portuguese person other than me? I have found that most people seem to think that the "reach under" is TRMM but is obvously not. Today got 10 rotations of 1234567, yay! is finally starting to look like a proper pattern. Other than that i have been twisting my melon with 642 4bmm but i think i've got it almost worked out just having difficulty with the 2s. 543 4bmm is virtually solid now, and some of my mulitplex to 5b cascade transitions are working nicely now.

Ads x


Is that magnets!?

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:oh yes.. forgot that we have been exploring barrel rolls and inversions with juggling..

mmmm geeeeeeeeeks....


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:are you actively trying to replicate drew's posting style rob or did you just pick up a dose of the cryptic flu whilst on 'holiday'...? wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:no! throw a high throw(like the 1 ball in mills) and try a barrel roll(poi). or 423 with the uberslow barrel roll a la mike(psi). or try juggling between your hands and your body(inverted)

shut it!

( hug2 ooshoosh hug2 )


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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DsAds


Poi? Never!
Location: London

Total posts: 316
Posted:I vote, cryptic flu, whatever it sounds way better than posing as Drew, Rob's not tall or skinny enough to pull that of unless, he's been under fed and streched in that land of Oz.

Ads x


Is that magnets!?

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