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Forums > Other Toys > The official HOP juggling "I just learnt a new move" thread

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Well, seeing as we are starting to take over the

"Offical HOP "I just learnt a new move" thread", I thought we should contain this bit just to jugglerisng and the throwing and dropping of balls, clubs, rings and other miscellaneous juggling props.

Today I mothered learning 441.

I had a few throws of 531 but only 1 catch. I think my 5 is too high.

Note for the mods: I DEMAND on behalf of the jugglers on this site, as has been done with the aforementioned "Poi moves thread", that this one is made a sticky thread.

Otherwise its just favouritism really....


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mech
mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"
Member Since: 9th Jun 2003
Total posts: 6207
Posted:it must be nice to be able to go juggle and not work wink

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:you're going to get a thump next time i see you mech.

wink


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mech
mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"
Member Since: 9th Jun 2003
Total posts: 6207
Posted:so how many is that you owe me now rob?

10, 15, 100?

come on a ball park figure

and you knwo you wouldnt hit me, you wouldnt want to catch anything from me wink


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Hexagonic


you know that trick (4,4) (4x0) and (4,4) (4x0)



Good.



I started playing with it on sunday night and got one where the two (4's) go up as per and then the other ball does 3 (2x's) before going up as a four on the other side. I think the numbers are (4,4) (1,1,1,4) or something.



I also started playing with the shuffle, but i'm sure i'm doing it wrong.





(4,4)(4x,0)* is 3b columns.



so its 3b columns with lots of swaps underneath the 2up bit?



(4,4)(1,1,1,4) suggests you have four hands!



the ss is:



(a,a)(2x,0)(0,2x)(2x,0)(0,4)*



ubbangel hug





megafish - i understand what you're getting at now i think.

you want a trick with the rubenstein's 2233 style mill that happens more than once in a row?



i can't work out how (if at all) this could work.

but as i said in my last post your siteswap is the first problem here because it is invalid.

trying to work out a trick using an invalid siteswap will only be a waste of your time.



if you follow the path of each ball in your suggestion of 6223223 you will see that you not only have three balls in the same hand on the last beat but there is no ball in your hand to do the first of the second set of 22's (in normal rubenstein's this ball would be the one you threw as the 5 but that ball hasn't landed in your suggestion because you threw a 6 so it lands a beat later in the other hand:



1st ball - 6223223

2nd ball - 6223223

3rd ball - 6223223



as you can see, no ball lands on the 6th beat - you want to hold a ball that isn't there.

and all the balls end up in the same hand on the last beat so you have to have a multiplex throw there...



validating this ss as simply as possible you show that there is no ball on beat 6 (replace the 2 with a 0) and get rid of the 3 balls in one hand at the end by doing a nice little 3b split [321]:



622320[321]



i know this doesn't help you get any nearer to more complex swirly whirlies but hopefully it shows you why the siteswaps you were thinking about don't work.



i personally think that the logical extensions i suggested may get you closer.



try using 7222233



think about doing the 3rd '2' (and maybe the 4th as well to ensure you get back to the right state to do the rubenstein's 33 bit) as an actual throw - this throw will be a short pop from the arm underneath, while this 2 is in the air chop the other arm down very quickly and bring the the arm that threw up and over to catch the ball again - this basically just swaps your arm orientation but the ball is not carried with the arm so the mill effect is still there.



mmstd: using a thrown 2 you go from (Rl) -> (Lr) -- i think thats right but i've never used mmstd to describe a pattern before!



in normal person speak, whichever hand is on the bottom, pop that ball directly upwards and chop down with the other hand to swap which hand (and ball) is on top.



this gets you one extra beat but squishes the swirlyness up a lot and as i said, done just once it leaves you in a sketchy orientation...



this may take some more thinking about, but its a start smile





good luck,



cole. x



(man i need to do some work now! ubblol)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:Coleman, as i said in the last post 6223223 doesn't work (it adds up to twenty and isn't divisable by 7)

my original idea was 6223233, which is a siteswap,

From the looks of it i'm gonna have to go back to school and talk to my physics teacher about this one, Its probably gonna need a few more beats and a 5 or something after the 6223,

thats okay though, coz my original idea was that the patterns they made looked a bit like the patterns that electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom. and thats kinda how they work. kinda

however, its not really ball collisions which are the problem, its arm colisions, thats why there has to be a gap in the 2s.



honestly, i'm not mad, it's just gonna take some serious thinking to get it sussed.

EDITED_BY: Megafish (1101227855)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:sorry man but 6223233 is not valid either - it leaves you with all three balls in the same hand on the last beat.

6223233
6223233
6223233

think about what i said at least about popping 2's to swap between mm states - even if you don't get what you want out of it (more swirlyness), it still produces some lovely tricks.
522 mills springs to mind.
luke's lobotomy uses a similar theory too.

as a quick tip - the average of the siteswap does not tell you whether it is valid or not.

to check validity you either have to do a bit of maths in your head or write the pattern down and count the beats to see where the balls go (as i have done for you here).


cole. x

(seriously, i'm gonna do some work now...)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:yeah, i know, i just spent the last two hours working all of it out, but didn't want to admit that i was wrong:-)
EDITED_BY: Megafish (1101254002)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:not to worry - everyone's wrong sometimes.

unfortunately you were wrong twice in quick succession which means it notices and smarts a whole lot more... tongue

wink

so i was thinking about this a little more last night.

the problem with putting higher throws in to get more swirlyness is that the pattern will be all spread out - the swirlyness ends up looking separate to the rest of the pattern.

the reason rubenstein's looks so damn good is that the 22 bit is juggled very fast which allows you to throw the 5 to around the same height as the 3's - this means the whole pattern fills a nice area in front of you.

as soon as you start adding higher throws you will get a distinct 'one ball high, lots of low circles with two balls' effect which, for me, detracts from the swirlyness.

but still, i wish you luck smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:wargh!!

the nicest 423 i know.

the 4 and the 2 are both singles, and nearly sync. mmm. ubblove

been working all my 423 variations down to singles which is most pleasing.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i can do that one too! biggrin hug

and (4x,2)(2,4x) with the 4x's and 2's as almost sync singles smile

jonnny did teach me that.

its all about the wallplane 4's nowdays apparently... shrug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:ha! is that dipped 4s or outside 4s?

4x,2)(2, 4x) is a nasty one for some reason. why i know not.
grrrrr.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:outside.

can't do them for the life of me.

why, i know not either...

wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:yes coleman, but, not wanting to be to pedantic, and seem like a total arrogant w***er and seem like one of those really annoying people who is always desparate to have the last word, you did get the same thing wrong twice in a row and even go as far as to work out all of the beats for a siteswap which i had already told you was in fact wrong. hehehe, (at this point i am actually starting to hate myself as much as you have probably started to).



is this 423s with clubs that your discussing above? damn i hate clubs, why do they have to be so hard. can wait till i get bored enough with juggling balls to feel like juggling clubs.



Is anyone else having trouble with jugglingdb.com at the moment? i know UCOF and i have, its starting to propper grip my boobies, coz i'm well in the mood for working out some complicated stuff. All this MMSTD stuff has got me to the point where it actually almost makes sense.

EDITED_BY: Megafish (1101315483)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:15 catches of 51 wallplane (clubs of course)

*sigh* only had about an hour of club juggling in the last two weeks, work and lack of workshops suck.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:;-( hearing of a fellow juggler who cannot find time to juggle makes me very sad, my advice; smash up everyone who trys to stop you or wastes your time and eat their bones, that'll teach them, jugglers are beyond the law. they want the truth? they can't handle the truth.



51 with clubs is hardcore!

EDITED_BY: Megafish (1101328126)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Megafish


yes coleman, but, not wanting to be to pedantic, and seem like a total arrogant w***er and seem like one of those really annoying people who is always desparate to have the last word, you did get the same thing wrong twice in a row and even go as far as to work out all of the beats for a siteswap which i had already told you was in fact wrong. hehehe, (at this point i am actually starting to hate myself as much as you have probably started to).





last words - no such thing on a forum... wink



go on then, what exactly did i get wrong?



the reason i typed out all that crap was becuase you didn't seem to understand why your siteswaps were invalid.

you were using the average rule to test for validity which doesn't work - that only tells you how many objects to use in a valid ss.

i tried to demonstrate how you could work out if your ss was valid or not by counting the beats and looking for where the balls end up.

but you blatently ignored all that and just suggested another invalid ss.

when i repeated why it doesn't work, you just said "i know".



i've been trying to help you understand ss better, give you some extra inspiration for your swirlyness quest and have even suggested a possibility that you could use that you hadn't considered yet (thrown 2's), but it seems clear now that you didn't want any replies other than "you're right pat".



so here it is: you're right. well done.

and just to make you feel better: i'm wrong.



i don't think you're a wanker but i also don't get why you'd ask about something and then dismiss all the help and alternative suggestions as either useless or as something you already knew (but obviously didn't want to admit you didn't understand)?



shrug



anyway, 423 with clubs is what we was on about.



wallplane doubles are indeed hardcore tommy.

try throwing a backcross into your wallplane showers - i've been wanting that for ages...

i'll have to get a wallplane shower and backcross doubles at least slightly solid before that i suppose... wink



i've juggled for less than 3 hours this week frown



but i've got the day off of work tomorrow and an indoor space with mirrors to go juggle in next week ubblove



i'm gonna take a camera and a tripod with me too now that my firewire card is in my pc...



biggrin juggle biggrin





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mech
mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"
Member Since: 9th Jun 2003
Total posts: 6207
Posted:i learned six clubs last night!

pictures to prove it biggrin


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Fuero
Fuero

addict
Location: Netherlands
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 465
Posted:Is there somewhere an explanation for the numbers? I've tried the almighty search, but i just can't find it. To many threads, THERE ARE TO MANY THREADS. AAAAHHHHHH


Ehhm...sorry


Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with

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mech
mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"
Member Since: 9th Jun 2003
Total posts: 6207
Posted:there is a set of links, opsted by cole to various ways of explaings..

they are placed in teh back pages of either this thread, or the thread in this forum started by seal, on clubs, contact and dibolo i think


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:The two places, as Mech has already stated, are this thread...and the Clubs, balls, diablo and contact thread.

You should read them all the way through anyway as they are a good read.

smile


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duballstar
duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 2216
Posted:yay! 441 mills at last! biggrin working on sync mills at the moment. pretty sure i hit somewhere near 50 of 5 last night. went for twice as long as usual but wasn't counting. damn you 100.. why do you mock me so?

and answering rob from miles back: not eric's. that would be ouch... eek


It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:tehee.

534 mills.


cole when can i get me balls?

love
R


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:sooooon smile

should be able to get them to a post office tomorrow morning (got the day off ya see).

mine are really dirty already (from just one night at spitz rolleyes).

think i might dye them all black... ubbrollsmile

534 mills is sweeeeeeeeet dude hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:with the backcross? hummmmm you do realise that im struggling with backcross tennis at the moment? I was trying two backcrosses in a row today.... thumpthumpthumpclatter..... ok, back to tennis.

i also discovered that once you lean tapbacks, knockdows are a bummer! ubbloco

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:Hi coleman,



you did go as far as to run though all the beats of 6223223, which adds up to 20 and averages at 2.8571428571428571428571428571429, even after i'd pointed out that it doesn't work. thats why i said i know, my original point was that i knew that 6223233 did not work (if you go back to my original post you'll notice that there are lots of question marks), and that i was asking for advice from the collective knowledge on getting the siteswap to work, i'd kind hoped that being the hardcore london juggler that you are you might have some insight into what i was getting at and would be able to correct me. instead you did a bit of a school teacher on me and point out everything that i had got wrong and started trying to tell me what i did and did not know, at which point i started to object and decided to point out that you were also wrong (writing out a beat map of a siteswap that doesn't work seems like a bit of a school boy error, especially when i've already said that it is wrong).

No offence, but i do know how siteswaps work, i can do a few of them (441,531,7131 <--**corrected to stop me from looking like a silly billy**), and i am working on a few more;

Thanks though, i wouldn't have thought of writting out the siteswap and putting the different balls in bold to see if it works, thats a great idea.



Yes, i did in my next post with lots of numbers in it kinda assume that i was right, by this point you had also assumed that you were right about 6223223 not being right (which it isn't, see above)



At this point i will admit that you are correct,



the pattern



3

423

52233 (three beat rubensteins)

6222333 (five beat rubensteins)

722223333 (seven beat rubensteins)

is correct, i do not doubt this.

infact i'm pretty close to getting the 7 beat, (before the 5, which seems strange). What i noticed when the seven beat nearly happened was that the 7 ball was infact the same mill's U ball as in RR, which felt rather funny, i guess its becuase the balls are being cranked aroung the MMSTD in a similar way to poi being isolated.

The problem that i have with these is that although they are more complicated to look at than RR they are still extentions of the same trick and involve wrapping your arms around more. there must be something more complicated which "doesn't" involve wrapping arms aroung each other. however obviously no ones thought it up yet, so i guess i'll just have to go back it getting all the 441 mill's and the 4 ball mills mess, with any luck by the time i have these i'll have got started on the four ball RR and will have completely forgotten about the next step from rubensteins.



PS yes that right i did just say i nearly did a 7 beat rubensteins and yes i can now do erics extension :-) dont you just hate me

EDITED_BY: Megafish (1101480026)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Gimp.

Why werent you at juggling this evening?

i juggled 7 clubs without any of them hitting the floor.

Agreed... i was juggling horizontally and rolling them down my knees, but the were still 7 clubs being juggled, by me.

smile


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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:ya mush dis is true, would have loved to have gone matey,
all juggling and no not juggling makes pat a nutty boy.

occasional breaks must be taken from doing it all the time inorder to not go insane.

but, i think i might have some especially [censored] up stuff to twist you noggin with next week:-)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:hexellent.

smile

See you this weekend then...


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:seven beat mikes, now that would make me eek

wink


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Megafish
lurking...
Location: Faversham UK
Member Since: 3rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 208
Posted:seven beat mikes, would be nice, if i even had the faintest clue what mikes even looks like in the first place, anyone got any links to it, i've been looking for ages:-)

Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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