Forums > Social Chat > Differnt type of drug topic (hear me out)

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Ok I was eating dinner today and I was thinking, ya know, you hear more of alcohol related deaths and tobacco related deaths than you do of things like people dieing from pot or even E, so I propose a hypothetical situation.

You have been given a chance to vote here are your options:

Choice A: Leaglise and tax drugs such as Pot, E and other "party drugs". (basically making them sold as tobacco and alcohol with high taxes and what not) And make Alcohol and tobacco illeagle (with the exception of wine and champaine sp)

Or

Choice B: Keep alcohol and tobacco leagle, and increase punishments and steadily increase taxes on them $0.50 a year for the next 20 years/ per pack.

What would you choose and why?

This could be an interesting topic, I hope to hear some good ideas.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:quote:Originally ranted by Bill Hicks:
I just cannot, you know, believe in a war against drugs when they've got anti-drug commercials on TV all day long, followed by, "This Bud's for you." I got news for you, folks. A-1, alcohol is a drug, and B-2, and here's the real one, alcohol kills more people than crack, coke and heroin ... combined each year. So, thanks for inviting me to your little alcoholic/drug den here tonight. You fine, upstanding citizens, you, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Now. You know what, if I was going to have a drug be legal, it would not be alcohol, you know why? There's better drugs and better drugs for you. That's a fact, so you can stop your internal dialogue. Wait a minute, Bill, alcohol is an accepted form of social interaction which for thousands of years has been the norm under which human beings have congregated in the form of social events and... Shut the fuck up. Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you.

Pot is a better drug than alcohol - fact, and I'll prove it. You're at a ballgame, you're at a concert, someone's really violent, aggressive and obnoxious, are they drunk or are they smoking pot? (Audience) Drunk! The one and only correct answer, tell them what they've won, Johnny. I have never seen people on pot get in a fight because it is fucking impossible! Hey, buddy. Hey, what? End of argument. Say you get in a car accident, and you've been smoking pot. You're only going four miles an hour. Vroom... CRASH. Shit, we hit something. Forgot to open the garage door, man. We got to get the garage door open so Domino's knows we're home!

But I'll tell you the truth, I have never heard one reason that rang true why marijuana is against the law. That rang true, now, I'm not talking about the reasons the government tells us, because I hope you know this, I think you do, all governments are lying cocksuckers. I hope you know that. Good. I mean, marijuana grows everywhere, it serves a thousand different functions, all of them positive, to make marijuana against the law is like saying God made a mistake, you know what I mean? It's like God, on the seventh day, looked down on his creation and said, "There it is. My creation. Perfect and holy in all ways. Now, I can rest... Oh my me. I left fucking pot everywhere. I should never have smoked that joint on the third day. Shit. If I leave pot everywhere, that's gonna give people the impression they're supposed to use it. Shit. Now I have to create Republicans." So, you see, it's a vicious cycle.

And I'm not promoting the use of drugs, believe me, I'm not. I've had bad times on drugs, I mean, just look at this haircut. Fuck!/silly grins


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:And that was supposed to mean what?? The guy makes a good point though. Funny too.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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s-p-l-a-t
member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Member Since: 8th Mar 2001
Total posts: 383
Posted:ye gods its been a while since I spent more than two seconds on here.. hello again everyone...

I wanna know why you reckon wine and champagne should be legal.. if you're gonna ban other alkyhols and tobaccos. Why not keep scotch and vodka and wine legal? Abolish beer and other instead? (ducks for cover from flying objects)

And if you were gonna make pills legal along with that... I think it'd be silly. I reckon certain people just shouldn't be dabbling in them (e.g. those with genetic susceptibilities to hardcore mental disorders etc) Hell even without taking that into consideration certain people shouldn't be dabbling with them. The fact that you gotta know someone, to get the goods, makes it that little bit more unaccessible. Which, while frustrating to responsible users, still acts as some kind of filter at least.

The bugger is that some people out there just don't care who they get it off and will pop anything really. More education in the way of 'try it if you gotta, but KNOW your pill as much as possible' or something?

I reckon some chems should be decriminalized.. hmm... I reckon the people at the top manufacturing really dodgy chemicals should all be fined really heavily. And the money spent on big legal ganja plantations!

As for ganja being legalized... damn right it should be. But when it is... there should be education, (I mean REAL education... arguments from BOTH sides) to let people know the stuff is great for this this and this... but occasionally people have gone mental using it this this and this way.


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Gahh just answer the question!! (I kept that in there for you Europians, wine is different from other alcohols, wine is leagle to serve to children in some countries, I dont know for sure but I dont think beer and other alcohols are, dont quote me on that though) But stop nit picking and just answer the question.

I am not trying to start a debate on legality I am just asking a question. Given these two cercumstances what would you do?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:legalise/regulate the flow vs. criminalise/send underground debate.
I prefer the former. Think about it, you're late for the footy, and you just pop into 7/11 for a blister 6-pack of White Turbo Mitsubishis! wOOt!
It aint for everyone, but it shouldn't be for no-one.

quote:
You never see a positive drugs story on the news, do ya? No. Always negative. But the news is supposed to be objective. I mean, isn't it supposed to be THE NEWS? But every drug story is negative? Hold it! I've had some killer times on drugs! I'm not promoting it, but I'm not denying it. Let's hear the whole fucking story...

Isn't that weird cos most of the experiences I've had on drugs, were rrreal fucking positive.

Er. Who are these morons they're finding that's what I wanna know. I used to want to call the news, "Come over to our house! Watch Tommy's, he's a pig, film him!"

"Oink oink."

"Hee hee, he's been doing that for hours. He's killing us. You getting all that?"
B Hicks


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Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:quote:Choice A: Leaglise and tax drugs such as Pot, E and other "party drugs". (basically making them sold as tobacco and alcohol with high taxes and what not) And make Alcohol and tobacco illeagle (with the exception of wine and champaine sp)

Or

Choice B: Keep alcohol and tobacco leagle, and increase punishments and steadily increase taxes on them $0.50 a year for the next 20 years/ per pack.okay, i know you want an "A" or "B" yes or no answer, but the thing is, it's a grey area. I believe in the legalization of certain drugs (mind you, with LOTS of education attatched, as was formerly mentioned) but at the same time, why would i vote for either of these options when MY recreational use of alcohol would either be (a) completely infringed upon or (b) made ridiculously expensive (not that it isn't already). I mean, i'm into wines - it's actually what i do for a living! I know wine, i drink wine, i recommend wines, i sell wine every day to over 100 different restaurants in my area. So here i am, a person who was raised by a farm living, pot smoking, extremely cool and mello mom whose farm actually adjoins the farm of the man who yearly hosts the famous "hemp fest", i believe in the legalization of certain drugs (how could i not) but yet no way would i vote for a choice that would either make it illegal for me to sip a delectable 97 Cab, or would make it so expensive that it would be an investment for me to buy that bottle. why should i be punished? or did i misunderstand and you were talking about tax increase on cigarrettes alone?
sorry, i know it's not a straight answer but a straight answer on this topic is hard to formulate cause there are too many variables!


"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:I think they should all be legal and it should be left to personal (adult) choice. I really don't see choice A or choice B very appealing at all.

One of the things about alcohal fatality statistics is that they are very biased. Most consider a sober driver crossing a median and killing a drunk driver an alcohal related fatality, even if the drunk was at fault in *no* way. The same if a sober driver jumps a curb and kill a drunk walking down the street, this is also considerd an alcohal related fatality. Also the reason that alcohal fatalities are much more common than drug fatalities is the simple fact that alcohal is just more common. There is a liquor store, offie, or 7-11 on every street coner in America. You can only buy illicit drugs on certain street corners usually in hte really bad parts of town.

I think the big reason that illicit drugs are not legal now is because of the way that the prison system is set up. Prison is now a big buisness in the US. It is run by large, sometimes multinational, corperations in conjuntion with the federal and state govenments and it is usually run as such.

Back in the days when I still smoked pot my friends loved to go on and on about how the government would make sooooo much money if drugs were legalized, but when legalization occurs the price goes down because supply increases, so that little bit of tax they would get off of some highschool kids dime bag isn't going to be very much. Compare the total tax that that kid would buy in his entire life to what the government would pull in in the way of our tax dollars to house and feed him as a non-violent drug offender for anywhere between two to twenty years. It equates to much, much more. The longer they keep drugs illegal the more drug offenders they can lock up and the more money they will make and that really is a lot of money, not to mention the excuse to beef up local law enforcement agencies and spend even more of our money.

No one seems to realize that the war on drugs is a war on the american people and a lot of the zero tolerance law are worded to include suspected drug users, which in reality can be veiwed to include anyone reading this or really anybody at all.

As for Bender's bill hicks quote:
quote:Pot is a better drug than alcohol - fact, and I'll prove it. You're at a ballgame, you're at a concert, someone's really violent, aggressive and obnoxious, are they drunk or are they smoking pot? (Audience) Drunk! The one and only correct answer, tell them what they've won, Johnny. I have never seen people on pot get in a fight because it is fucking impossible! Hey, buddy. Hey, what? End of argument. Say you get in a car accident, and you've been smoking pot. You're only going four miles an hour. Vroom... CRASH. Shit, we hit something. Forgot to open the garage door, man. We got to get the garage door open so Domino's knows we're home!
That is really total bullshit. I would contend that less then 1% of one percent of people who go out to the bar get into a fight. If they did going to the bar would be much, much more dangerous. And some of the most violent people I have ever met have been pot heads (and thats saying a lot as I went to high school with a group of Nazi Skinheads). The drug you're on does not dictate your actions for you. Getting into fights at concerts and baseball games stems from an inheirant violent tendancey alcohal has noting to do with it. It's more of meathead jock thing than a wino thing. Think about it, when's the last time you saw the drunk guy bumming change on the corner start a fight?

[ 02 July 2002, 17:04: Message edited by: SickpuPpy ]


Jesus helps me trick people.

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Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:quote:It aint for everyone, but it shouldn't be for no-one.A good way of summing it up!

"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:Yeah, Cheers to that!

Jesus helps me trick people.

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Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:quote:You can only buy illicit drugs on certain street corners usually in hte really bad parts of town.*ducking to avoid the inevitable backlash* Whoa! that's a very very very misinformed statement! I live in an affluent, countryside setting where heroin is currently the drug of choice! (no, i don't use it but i live in such a close-knit area that you can't do anything without everyone knowing, so long as you're paying attention!) and when i was in High School in the late 80's - early 90's, it was cocaine (still very prevalent).and to buy these types of drugs you're pulling up to million dollar homes sitting on the beach, not some back alley! I can't even recall how many parties i've been to over the years at these really incredible houses with seemigly endless amounts of cocaine for the asking...believe me it's everywhere! And of course pot (which i certainly wouldn't call illicit anyway) is everywhere also...you can even find some pretty good buds along the trails in the local state park where hikers toss their seeds! Really!

"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:quote:Originally posted by SickpuPpy:
[QB]No one seems to realize that the war on drugs is a war on the american people and a lot of the zero tolerance law are worded to include suspected drug users, which in reality can be veiwed to include anyone reading this or really anybody at all.[QB]right on, sick puppy!
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedoms, keep that in mind at all times" Hicks in the final track of Tool - Aenima.
Sickpuppy, mate, what you may not have realise id that comedy skit is that the hypothetical situation is set when a fight breaks out, not that all fights break out. the skit goes on to establish that when violence does happen, it's more likely to be caused by drunks, not stoners.
I encourage everyone to re-examine the causal logic in the contrary argument before branding the said argument to be
quote:Originally posted by SickpuPpy:
really total bullshit.
[QB]I do appreciate, however, the viewpoint you forward about the defense of drunks. I live in unviolence, where drunks are hardly ever violent.
we luv ya all the same, puppy!

and nyxty, I fink i'll remember that quote! - it was in the attempt to express the most imporant point in the least number of words.
That way I can fit more Hicks into my posts!! (the man's material totally sums up what what's wrong in the world)

Some of y'all may remember me, I was a drinker. I was a weekend drinker, you know, I'd start on Saturday, and end on Friday, and I thought I was controlling it there. I don't drink anymore, I don't do drugs anymore, either, than, I'd say the average touring funk band. I had to add it up. No, I don't do drugs anymore, either. But I'll tell you something about drugs, I used to do drugs, but I'll tell you something honestly about drugs, honestly, and I know it's not a very popular idea, you don't hear it very often anymore, but it is the truth- I had a great time doing drugs. Sorry. Never murdered anyone, never robbed anyone, never raped anyone, never beat anyone, never lost a job, a car, a house, a wife or kids, laughed my ass off, and went about my day. Sorry.
-B Hicks


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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Nutella is the crack of chocolate adicts.

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Nyx
enthusiast
Location: NorCal
Member Since: 17th Jun 2002
Total posts: 385
Posted:*looks around for Kyrian*
Damn that girl! Where is my promised nutella?!!


"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"

~Charles Baudelaire

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Nyx:
*looks around for Kyrian*
Damn that girl! Where is my promised nutella?!!
dangnabbed nutella dealers!!
once they moved in, the neighbourhood's gone to hell.
Chocolate addicts in the streets lookin' for wrappers, Nutella pimps roaming the 'burbs for the next hazelnut action, broken families cus everyone's eatin' it, the imminent collase of the dental care system, Nutella is a pandemic i tells ya
/white men in coat storm in and take bender away, who is muttering something about Goldmember..


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Talk about your all time backfires!! Very few of you got the point and read too much into it. Ohh well...

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:You folks sure do right a lot of words.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:oi Nyx, me apologies. are you up? errrr... but m y dad is asleep in the living room....

tommorow, perhaps?

oh, and we need to practice...

i also need to get a cd made tho...

errr.... call me tommorow i get off work at oh 7 or 8ish. and if ur still up in an hour- well, i dunno. *can't think*


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:oh, and ray- i'm standing aside from the question...

and Nyx, damn ur right about the coke. eeeeeshhhhh

'tis nuts. i only personally know a few heroin users so i can't comment on that one.

the fricken coke goes from H.S. up through at least 50 tho.....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, it's a tough question. We already tried banning alcohol. Didn't work that well. I can't imagine that banning tobacco will work that well, either, although I'd love to see a tobacco ban from a health standpoint.

I'm not so sure I'd want the government to be selling drugs or taxing them or what-not. I'd rather a netherlands approach where drugs are illegal, but you don't get your life destroyed for standing next to someone who is smoking pot.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:Ray,
I read exactly what you were trying to say, and I say, "AMEN"!!! and would probably fall somewhere between taxing moderately to heavy.

Mike,
Being a mad doctor in training, I thought you would realize the gov'ts already involved in distribution: it's called a pharmacy, and they have MANY drugs that are MUCH worse than those popular recreational drugs (Rohipenol comes to mind). Go figure

It should be a choice.
I know it's extremely dangerous to drive, but I do it everyday. Why, because I made a choice that it's easier to drive than to walk. I pay my tax on the roads, I pay my insurance, I pay my tax on gas, and rubber and hazardous chemicals that are everywhere in auto's. I choose to drive because it gets me where I want to be quicker. Why should my choice of consumption be different? It does many of the same things as driving, main point being, it gets me where I want to be quicker (philisophically). That scares a lot of people. What would we do if everyone didn't want to go out and make money? OMG, the industries would suffer... imagine the income loss from a nation of disposable people when they finally get a conscience?


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by toneman:


Mike,
Being a mad doctor in training, I thought you would realize the gov'ts already involved in distribution: it's called a pharmacy, and they have MANY drugs that are MUCH worse than those popular recreational drugs (Rohipenol comes to mind). Go figure There is a big difference, Toneman. The intent of pharmaceuticals is for medical use. The intent of legalization would be for recreational use. It is still illegal to possess a pharmaceutical (particularly a controlled substance) that is not prescribed to you.

I am not saying that recreational use of pharmaceuticals doesn't happen (lordy, I'm not that naive!), I'm saying that they still aren't "legal" in that you have to have special circumstances ("medical necessity") in order to possess them.

But to make a point, nitrous oxide is legal in all 50 states. In Nevada it is even legal to inhale it without being under medical supervision. In California, that is not a permitted use. But you can still drive around with a case of 300 whippits in your trunk and nobody can arrest you for it. I mean, you might just need to make a hell of a lot of whipped cream...

Yet do we have a whippit epidemic? Have we ever?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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cyberpunkgrrl
cyberpunkgrrl

member
Location: London
Member Since: 26th Nov 2001
Total posts: 27
Posted:IMHO, a lot of drugs are taken by people just for that fact they are illegal, and they do it for that reason. Though now, all the people that I know do it for a purely social reason. *shrug* I don't smoke, sometimes drink, but have been known to dabble a few times in other substances Each to their own, I suppose... I don't think drugs should be made legal (personal reasons), but I do agree that alcohol and tobacco are the biggest killers in todays social scene.

*s*


Retry
Abort...


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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:quote:You can only buy illicit drugs on certain street corners usually in hte really bad parts of town.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*ducking to avoid the inevitable backlash* Whoa! that's a very very very misinformed statement!
That's not really a misifnformed statement, just a very vague one, I try to keep my posts somewhat short and I deleted a lot of that segment. Some times my point gets lost or misunderstood because of it.

I know full well that a very large percentage of drug use happens in nice suburban neighborhoods and is very common in small towns. I grew up in the suburbs and I was one of those kids using every drug that they could get their hands on. I have no illusions about how common drugs are there. Now I live in the city and I trip over crackheads every day. I see people buying smack on the street corner and I have to help the bouncers kick these people out of the bars and clubs I hang out at on almost a nightly basis. So it's more towards the front of my mind at the moment.

My point was simply that it is much easier for someone to get alcohal (particularly if they are of age) than it is to buy pot, crack, smack, pcp, E, whatever. Also in the city it is much, much more in the open than it is in the suburbs or the boonies. People live in suburbs and small towns because they don't want to exist with the realities of city life so they are much less likely to tolerate some one selling crack on their street corner, and as such, so are the police. So in order to obtain drugs you have to know people who can get it, or be the person who does get it, while any idiot can walk into an offie.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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KyleG4u
KyleG4u

KyleG4u
Location: USA
Member Since: 19th Sep 2010
Total posts: 68
Posted:Hey, Bill Hicks is awesome *rip* but you all forgot about his acid rant in the news "and we've all seen the same news story every year, young man on acid thought he could fly and jumped to his death from a sky scraper building, what a tragedy. ..... what a dick, don't blame that on the drug, think about it, do you ever see ducks lining up for elevators no, hes gone good wow how are we going to function missing another moron. Whats the problem bill? were missing a moron :'( WERE MISSING A MORON. no you never really hear a good drug story in the news *the rest was quoted* but yea, im slightly indifferent, i believe its a personal choice and should remain as such. Drugs will never be legal because we live in a sad close minded country where everyone believes they are right and there is no such thing as right or wrong anymore, its all grey because its a relative perspective

It's like when you can't remember something you get.... short term.... kidney failure, that's gotta be it, something wrong with your kidneys...
---------------------------------
Love Peace Chicken Grease, Live Laugh Love

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