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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hi there everyone,

After a couple of requests, some consideration and my own rather curvaceous tangent on the thread for the Russian families of the school massacre I decided to start a thread dedicated to interesting issues in the daily news (or even the daily news itself, anything news-related really you get the idea).

Ive done a search and while theres hundreds of threads for individual news stories, I couldnt find one for an ongoing discussion of whats happening in the world around us.

I know lots of people dont follow the news, but many do, and my opinion is that discussion on current events gives people a better understanding of nations, races and humanity, for want of a better word.

HoP is in the enviable position of having a really global audience there cant be many websites with regular posting members from right across the world, covering such a wide spectrum of cultures, ideas and beliefs. We have the ability to look at events from many different viewpoints, so I thought we should use it.

Anyways, I was thinking we could post, or draw attention to, some of the main stories that affect us on a daily basis

Btw, I really dont want this to become an America-bashing thread (or any other type of bashing). I think most of us share the view that the American government are fairly appalling at the minute, and while criticism will definitely happen, I dont want any Americans on the site to feel victimised or that pro-Bush types feel their views arent valid. Try to keep all the views considered and, if possible, sourced.

So anyways, let me know what you think

A couple of interesting stories I picked up on today were:

Indonesia has become the latest nation to join the war on terrorism following the car bomb at the Australian embassy which killed 9 people and injured 180 I heard an Indonesian government official (I think it was the spokesman for the Indonesian foreign ministry) say they are 'now ready to join the war on terror', after it was alleged the militant Islamic group Jemaah Islamiah were responsible. (sorry, am about to leave work and couldn't find a source... will try to get it tomorrow).

Also, US secretary of state Colin Powell has declared the situation in Sudan a genocide:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3641820.stm
br>
It seems the countries are busy arguing over the term genocide as opposed to actually getting out there with aid and peacekeeping forces.

Anyways, Id be interested to hear anyones opinions on these stories as well as anything else youd like to bring up

Thanks
take care
Clare xox


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Stop reporting the killings?!

Righto, so your child is killed in a school shooting and you wouldn't want it mentioned on the media... just forget about it?

Can we please not blame the media this time, it is such a trivial, simplified argument that I have argued a hundred times in this forum... (and in this thread!)

I am not blaming anyone... the child felt isolated, sad. He had access to guns and he followed a very tragic impulse.

My point was that if the guns weren't so available, maybe it would have been harder for him to do.

rolleyes


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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:Firepoise, like I said, even if his grandfather had kept the guns locked or unloaded or used a safety, there are still plenty of ways the boy could have gotten to them. I'm sure the boy knew exactly where his grandfather kept such a key if he had one. Every law enforcement official is required to have a gun. Most of them bring them home with them because they can be called while off-duty.

Different guns have different purposes. Some are for shooting game, others can be more lethal in different ways and to different individuals.

You should also know that many places in the US have started using tazers (sp?) by their police force as well. However, these don't seem very cost effective or an adequat deterrant for criminals. They really don't care so much that they have just been shot by a tazer even though it does stun them.


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:interesting point Ado-P.

don't think it is just the media coverage to blame of course - but neither do you.

Selling what is wrong with america to europe and the rest of the world is big business and brings in lots of money, so stopping that won't happen.

what should happen is making sure other depressed and psychologically troubled kids don't get the idea that shooting up their school is a glorious way to commit suicide, and that is the core of your sensationalism point I think.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"Conscientious Terrorists."

The people who lift guns with the interests of killing other people are scum.
That is my personal opinion.

They keep their arms in dumps so they are not discovered in the house by police - nothing conscientious about it.


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Firepoise

Stop reporting the killings?!




that is pretty much EXACTLY how germany has chosen to deal with it.


-v-

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:People are taught that guns can kill. In fact, that's many of the reasons that a child like this will use them. He's angry, he's hurt, he does not like his classmates for whatever reason and wants to get rid of them.

It's not only educating people about guns and their safety that needs to be taught. People also need to know how to deal with anger, frustration, and being picked on. They need an acceptable outlet for their emotions and need to be able to cope with them and learn that they aren't the only ones that feel this way. He was a teenager after all, their as most of us know, their emotions can be all over the place and they are just learning to figure out how to handle things within their own life. I think more attention should be paid to better help people in this phase of life instead of making such broad generalizations about gun policy in the states. Like I've said before, even if the grandfather did keep the gun locked, I think the boy could have still found a way to get at them.


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Maybe i should ahve made that statement about not reporting the killings more sarcastic.,

my point was that public perception on an international level of the US is propogated by the media. that works to various advantages and disadvantages. one of the bad ones is that half the word thinks that the americans are gun toting homophobic nutcases that come to ireland every year to cycle around kerry.

so if its not the gun control laws and its not the media.

what the hell is the problem and why are people being killed.

and in respnse to my last post about terrorists

i was once again being sarcastic.

damn, im really not a good mood today im not trying to have a go at anyone. stepping out now


Love is the law.

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: spritie
However, these don't seem very cost effective or an adequat deterrant for criminals. They really don't care so much that they have just been shot by a tazer even though it does stun them.



if you are expecting a tazer hit and know what is coming (ie, have been hit by one before), it may not even stun you or even slow you down much


-v-

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I agree with all of that spritie... of course the boy felt sad, of course children need to be taught how to deal with their anger... but while that is happening, they shouldn't have easy access to guns!

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: spritie

I think more attention should be paid to better help people in this phase of life instead of making such broad generalizations about gun policy in the states. Like I've said before, even if the grandfather did keep the gun locked, I think the boy could have still found a way to get at them.



hug

and if he didnt find the gun he would have done it with something else.

i wonder why to some peole human life doesnt seem to be so valuable.


Love is the law.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"one of the bad ones is that half the word thinks that the americans are gun toting homophobic nutcases that come to ireland every year to cycle around kerry."

Sorry for missing the sarcasm hug


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"and if he didnt find the gun he would have done it with something else."

Maybe, but he probably wouldn't have been as successful with a knife.


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:i dont agree, i think if he is crazy enough to kill someone he would have found a way.

Love is the law.

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:I agree with ado-p. If your mind is confused enough to want to kill people, you won't be satisfied with yourself until you have acheived the desired result.

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Pink...?
BRONZE Member since Apr 2002

Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There

Total posts: 6140
Posted:I wasn't having a go at America in my post, i was just stating that it seems to have more than it's fair share of school killings,

I remember (my memory is poor though) of one in Germany, and one in England (although the one in England was a man not a pupil going on a killing spree).


Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I'm not intending to stir up the argument again, nor am I making any suggestions about what happened... but this is the nightlead from tonight:

(however, I would like to say before you read this, that Victoria Ward has sensationalised this incident... very notably on a couple of paragraphs)

By Victoria Ward, PA, in New York

A neo-Nazi teenager who called himself the Angel of Death killed his grandfather and then stole his weapons and police car before embarking on a bloody shooting spree at a United States school, it emerged tonight.

Jeff Weise, 16, who openly admired Adolf Hitler, massacred nine people before finally turning the gun on himself on a remote Indian reservation.

Detectives believe he acted alone and killed at random, although they said his actions indicated that at least part of the attack was premeditated.

It was the deadliest school shooting in the US since the Columbine massacre in 1999 that killed 13 people.

FBI special agent Michael Tabman said Weise had gone to the home of his grandfather, a police officer, killing the man and his wife before jumping behind the wheel of his police car and heading for the school where he killed seven more people.

Armed with a police-issue pistol, shotgun and wearing a bullet-proof vest, he killed a security guard before pursuing two teachers into a classroom and opening fire.

He then went on the rampage through the school, killing randomly, before exchanging gunfire with police and eventually shooting himself. The entire incident on Monday lasted no more than 10 minutes.

Mr Tabman said they did not have a motive for the shootings or know whether there had been any confrontation between Weise and his grandfather.

At one point, Weise was captured on videotape in the school corridor. One student said her classmates pleaded with Weise to stop shooting.

"You could hear a girl saying, 'No, Jeff, quit, quit. Leave me alone. What are you doing?"' said student Sondra Hegstrom.

During the rampage, teachers herded students from one room to another, trying to move away from the sound of the shooting, witnesses said.

Weise was caught on camera in the corridor, but no shootings were.

Reggie Graves, a student at Red Lake High School, said he was watching a film about Shakespeare in class when he heard the gunman blast his way past the metal detector at the school's entrance, killing a guard.

In a nearby classroom he heard the gunman speak to his friend.

"He asked Ryan if he believed in God," Graves said. "And then he shot him."

The victims included the gunman's grandfather; the grandfather's wife; a school security guard; a teacher and five other students. At least 14 others were wounded, officials said.

"There's not a soul that will go untouched by the tragic loss that we've experienced here," said Floyd Jourdain, chairman of the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe.

"Our community has been devastated. We are in disbelief and shock."

Weise had been placed in the school's Homebound programme for some violation of policy, school board member Kathryn Beaulieu said.

Students on the programme stay at home and are taught by a travelling teacher.

Student Ashley Morrison said she heard shots, then saw the gunman's face peering though a door window of a classroom where she was hiding with several other students. After banging at the door, the gunman walked away and she heard more shots, she said.

"I can't even count how many gunshots you heard, there was over 20. ... There were people screaming, and they made us get behind the desk," she said.

All of the dead students, including the killer, were found in one room.

Relatives said Weise was a loner who usually wore black and was teased by other kids.

They said his father committed suicide four years ago, and his mother was nursing home after suffering brain injuries in a car accident.

The teenager admired German dictator Adolf Hitler and was a suspect following threats made at his school last year, he revealed in an internet forum frequented by neo-Nazis.

"I guess I've always carried a natural admiration for Hitler and his ideals, and his courage to take on larger nations," Weise wrote on the website.

He said he was interested in finding like-minded Indians and was against interracial mixing.

In one message he said he had been questioned by police in connection with an alleged shooting threat at the school on April 20, Hitler's birthday.

Alternately using the online pen names Todesengel - German for Angel of Death - and NativeNazi, Weise wrote several messages in which he said he believed Hitler and the Nazi movement that embroiled the world in war and caused millions of deaths got a bad press.

Red Lake High School has about 300 students. The reservation is some 240 miles north of Minneapolis and is home to the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, one of the poorest in the state.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hello and good morning all...

I'm on a NZ anti-GE mailing list and received this from them this morning - any feedback from the sciency types?!!:

Iraqi seed-saving under attack.
23 Mar 2005

New American rules are being seen as a major attack on the traditional practice of seed-saving and seed-sharing by Iraqi farmers.

Iraq was the birthplace of wheat farming, but agriculture has crashed there in the last decade.

Order 81, put in place by US official Paul Bremer, refers to seed-saving and patents. It is legally binding unless repealed by a future Iraqi Government.

If seeds can be proven to be new, distinct, uniform and stable, then they are protected.

Seed companies can charge royalties for the seeds, and perhaps most importantly, Iraqi farmers are forbidden to save them.

NGOs fear that American companies will supply Iraqi farmers with free seeds for a season or two, and then lock them into a system where they will have to pay for new seeds every year.

They say the law also opens the door for GE seeds to be sold in Iraq.

A movement is growing to pressure the new Iraqi Government to repeal Order 81. Opponents of Order 81 want to see community-controlled seed banks set up in Iraq.

Order 81
http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20040426_CPAORD_81_Patents_Law.pdf
br>
GM Watch: Order 81: Crime against humanity
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=4998
br>
The Ecologist: Order 81
http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2005/Order-81-Iraq1feb05.htm


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:traditional seed is available too.



however, generally a farmer can see a greater profit from using a seed strain that requires payment and has laws against seed saving while still buying all of next years seed than he can by using normal seed that companies have not taken large amounts of time and money to develope.



this is actually a bit of an issue in the states as well, as ther have been many private farmers busted in the last year or two for seed saving seeds they are not allowed to (and have signed a contract for saying they won't do so). traditional seed they can save is also available still, even in the USA. Normally it is other farmers turning in the farmers breaching contract via seed saving since it winds up costing them more money when some people cheat.



if a farmer enters a contract and profits from that contract make him better off than he was before, then he should abide by the whole contract and not seed save.


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Pink...?

I wasn't having a go at America in my post, i was just stating that it seems to have more than it's fair share of school killings,

I remember (my memory is poor though) of one in Germany, and one in England (although the one in England was a man not a pupil going on a killing spree).



not to be snarky (you know I love you pink...?!), but depends on how you look at it.

here is a list of recent school shootings.

yes the USA has more than anyone else.

but if you look at it per capita, then since 1996, then he rankings look some thing like this:

Most school shootings incidents per capita since 1996:
(# of incidents per million people)

scotland (0.20)
sweden (0.11)
usa (0.09)
netherlands (0.06)
germany (0.05)
yemen (0.05)
canada (0.05)

deaths in school shootings since 1996:
(# killed per million people)

scotland (3.2)
germany (0.29)
yemen (0.40)
usa (0.20)
sweden (0.11)
canada (0.05)
netherlands (0)

if you compare the USA and germany since 2000, you will see that it is now more dangerous to be a student in germany because of guns than it is in the USA:

number of incidents since 2000 per million people:

germany (0.05)
usa (0.05)

# people killed in since 2000 in school shootings per million (includes most recent USA shooting, as does the above):

germany (0.28)
usa (0.08)

so really if one considers that there are a lot more schools and a lot more kids in the united states, you can see that really this isn't the American problem people make it out to be. gun control is a lot stricter in those other countries listed I beleive, but doesn't seem to make their students any safer...

look, I am not against gun control, actually I am all in favor of stricter gun control in the USA, but not every problem the USA has is because of lose gun control laws, and not every problem the USA has is as bad as it looks when you take into account mitigating factors.

So unless you want to say scotland, germany, yemen, and sweden all have an epidemic of school shootings and should make stronger anti gun laws to solve the problem, you can't really say that about the USA either....


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:interestingly enough i cannot find any record of any school kids shooting eah other in ireland. ever.

nor can i remember any similiar incidents.

this gun arguement is flogging a dead horse

all those stats have already been exhaustively posted in another insane thread we all took part in.

i know i've said it before but i really think its a major case of. Big Country, Big News.


Love is the law.

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:Spirite, please note that I said that thy shud refine the law to check who has them, i.e, not completley banning them, but only giving it to thos who need it.. or something...

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: ado-p

interestingly enough i cannot find any record of any school kids shooting eah other in ireland. ever.




yeah, me neither - but all you need is one and you'll shoot right past the united states in the per capita stats fast as fast can be!


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:ubblol

hug


Love is the law.

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:I like your sense of humor!



twisted, like mine... beerchug


-v-

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:rolleyes

The only incident I can remember of nasty violence in schools was in Regent House, Belfast. I was in 6th form at the time in another school, but I knew one of the girls in the room at the time (17/18 years old).

A guy took a flamethrower into an exam hall and attacked the students in the first row.

Nobody died, thank god... but security around exam halls was tightened afterwards


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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:And actually in the US kids are safer in school than they are anywhere else. This includes safety from gun violence. There are a few outrageous incidents, but by and large kids are more likely to be shot, or to shoot others, well away from schools.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Interesting statistics there Vanize, even more so that Scotland's placing originates from just one incident.

I was also interested to hear Germany tends to deal with the killings inside the country by not reporting them, as it was in Germany that I first heard of that one incident, the Dunblane masscre, from seeing the headlines on a a news stand in Hamburg.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I think things are reported in Germany Spanner, just perhaps not with the same enthusiasm...

Btw, are you coming to Falmouth missus?!! I hope so!! Hope all is going well with you

hug


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: Spanner


Interesting statistics there Vanize, even more so that Scotland's placing originates from just one incident.



I was also interested to hear Germany tends to deal with the killings inside the country by not reporting them, as it was in Germany that I first heard of that one incident, the Dunblane masscre, from seeing the headlines on a news stand in Hamburg.





yeah - and did you ever hear about the other 3 in germany, anywhere?



agreed that one incident is not statistically sound (or statistically anything really), however, given the population of scotland, and the rate of school shootings in the USA and the population there, you would expect scotland to NEVER have a school shooting incedent, much less such a deadly one.



On the other hand, you would also expect france to have had a couple, and they haven't had any - again, not large enough numbers to be statistically significant.



But a single incedent in a small group is, in some ways, a more significant occurance.



Statistically it means pretty much nothing since you almost literally cannot do anything statistically with numbers less than 3 and for less than 5 you are just being perverse using stats (like I was in my earlier post - but I was being perverse for a reason, and those are really statistics either, just population density analysis with no statistical methods applied, though laymen still call this statistics when in reality it isn't).



But just because it means nothing statistically doesn't mean it means nothing.



A single incedent in scotland is significant because you would expect there to not be any there, ever.



you would expect Texas, the second most populous state (and 5 times more populous than scotland), to had at least a couple - especially if the gun law arguments were correct since Texas gun control laws are weak to non existant (no licience required, only fully automatic weapons prohibited). But Texas has never had a school shooting incedent.



Given that Texas, which seems like it should have had some school shooting incedents, hasn't had any, and scotland, which has a very low likelyhood of ever having one, has, I think (despite lack of rigorous statistical validity) it does pose a significant question - why is this so?



What I find interesting is that with only a few minor exceptions (new york city. richmond VA, and new orleans) and only one resultant death (the one in new orleans), all the other shootings in the USA happened outside of major urban areas and in places I wouldn't really care to live in. Given population densities, one would expected there to have been at least 10 incidents and 20 or more deaths!

(one could argue that the Littleton Colorado incident was in the Denver metropolitan area of course, which would add one the the number of incedents and 14 to the number of deaths, bringing us closer to the number expected in some ways, but Littleton is on the outskirts of the city and not a very nice place by my estimation - having been there).



I think that says worlds more about the problem than any mention of gun control issues does.



again - I am NOT against gun control. I am however, against people immediatly jumping to conclusions about things when doing so misleads and obscures the more essential core problems.

EDITED_BY: vanize (1111659039)


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:No I'm not coming to Falmouth, I'm afraid - see the thread frown

Written by: Vanize
yeah - and did you ever hear about the other 3 in germany, anywhere?



No. That's what I found interesting smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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