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Forums > Social Discussion > Sympathies and thoughts to the Russian Families

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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:Thought I would start this thread after reading the news yesterday about the hostages being held at a school in North Ossetian town of Beslan in Russia.

My prayers and thoughts are with the hostages and their families in this dark time.

I hope and pray that you all make it back safely into the arms of your family and friends.

For those of you who do not know what I am talking about please read the article: http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10638371%255E401,00.html
br>
400 students and teachers were taken hostage by what is believed to be Chechen rebels.

They have threatened to kill them all.

Most of the kids taken were under 14 years of age...

Please bring them home safely..... frown


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Frulein
Frulein

Fireotographer on Hiatus
Location: Cork, Ireland
Member Since: 29th Jul 2004
Total posts: 284
Posted:I think it is just very sad that noone really pays attention to what's going on in the world ALL THE TIME (myself included) but as soon as something like that happens and is aired on tv EVERYONE is watching and talking about it. I know that every single person feels sorry for the families and children that - if they survived - are emotionally as well as physically scarred for the rest of their lives but it's kinda like what it's with car accidents: all of a sudden everyone is watching... And then it's over and people go back to the random trivial stuff and never mention it again.... I think that is very sad.

I hope that doesn't sound half as rude as it sounds to myself at the moment...


"I see," said the blind man.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hey lovely Sarah, course that's not rude biggrin



The reason these stories aren't covered all the time by the media is, quite simply, because they don't make the news agenda. I know that seems harsh, but it's the truth.



A news agenda is the kindof unwritten outline that each tv news or newspaper editorial team use to decide what goes into the broadcast or paper.



Each organisation will have a different agenda, often depending on their readership demographic.



But for the most part the agenda will include: relevance to their particular readership, local news, local issues, significant global stories involving politics or guns (availability of pictures is important), and then if they have room... the moral-led stories which are ongoing and which get attention every now and again when something happens.



I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it is the way the media operate.

The agenda is formed this way because people like to hear their local news, and they don't like to hear a news totally filled with death and despair and reinforcement of how awful we all are.



Have you noticed that Sudan has more or less fallen from the television news already?!



But most people (in the West) have access to the internet and can find out about these stories through that.



The real killer is apathy.



Journalists don't want to do the massive amounts of extra work required to constantly report on the 'real' stories (especially when you have home news dropped into your lap, and global stories can be collected - pre-written and photographed - from the newswire) and the majority of viewers don't want to be morally challenged every time they turn on the television (nor do most people check the website news on a regular basis to find out about the stories they missed on tv or in newspapers).



Burning Byron... as you will have discovered by now, it's amazing what can slip by unnoticed. Post a couple of links of those reports you found?!



Anyways, take care

xx


Getting to the other side smile

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BurningByron
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 10th May 2002
Total posts: 340
Posted:http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/
br>Here is the main link to a world wide human rights watchdog page.

Below are stories and some reports from this site

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chechnya2/
br>
http://hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/chechnya_women.htm
br>
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/04/chechnya041002.htm
br>
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/12/russia1231.htm
br>
This site has a scathing but very informative recount of the brutality of Russian forces.
http://mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq5.html#3
br>
http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/index.utp?content=chechnya/disappeared/
br>
Here are just a few of the many many sites describing the sad situation in Chechnya. Would post up more but I have a lecture to run off to!


HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

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Frulein
Frulein

Fireotographer on Hiatus
Location: Cork, Ireland
Member Since: 29th Jul 2004
Total posts: 284
Posted:I know what you mean and I assumed that you were seeing it more from the journalist's point of view wink but actually I tried to say something different: some people pretend to be all compassionate but are actually just craving for sensations frown I don't think it applies to the drama at the russian school but to other incidents (like car accidents etc.). I am sick of that...

"I see," said the blind man.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hey thanks for that BurningByron... will read them later.

Sarah, oh ok, I know what you mean. But I guess that's just human nature, we are drawn to the macabre and misfortune.

xx


Getting to the other side smile

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:my friend said she thought she heard that there were seiges in other schools at the same time. she said she though there was one in Uzbekistan (sp?)...she wasnt sure tho, but does anyone know anything about this?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hey there Burning Byron...
just read over those reports you posted ... very upsetting - its clear where the Chechen anger has come from.

Rouge, I haven't found anything about other school attacks, but maybe there was.

xx


Getting to the other side smile

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lunernia
member

Member Since: 24th Aug 2004
Total posts: 110
Posted:this is all so sad. i cant understand why anyone would want to hurt a child in any case, i guess the world is a nasty place to live in i hope these children through all that they had suffered are at peace now. i feel for the familys of those who were killed and also for those who survived. it must be so hard to live through somthing as mind numbingly painful as that.


luner xx


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:There is now a video of what happened inside, which was filmed by the terrorists. Im watching it on the tv now.
The video tells them nothing about who the terrorists were.

Lots of them packed into the gym.... huge slabs of C4 wired up.
What i dont understand is why they still do not know who is alive and who is dead? Can they not just get a list of all the people, and cross refernce them with the list of people who escaped and the list of people in the hospitals?


the footage is being watched by the russian security services.

Andy McNab (Ex SAS soldier) said they look like professional soldiers. more than 1000 people and no signs of anyone stopping them, the group was split into two and palced on oppoisite sides of the gym, with the bomb in the middle causing everyone to be scared. the ammount of equipment was well planned. THe bombs were supsended form the ceiling so they could explode up and make bricks and other parts of shrapnel. One of the terrorists spoke in arabic (no link to Al-Quaida remarkably)

There were indeed bombs suspended from the basketball nets.
The Kremlin were taken by suprise by this video being shown last night on NTV (the main russian channel).


and then it went onto a story about gas bill increases.


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:I don't think they have a list to cross-reference... it was all very disorganised at the time (and it was the first day of school).

I know they have about 200 bodies to be identified and about 200 missing... they will probably turn to DNA identification.

I heard Andy McNab say that too... but I don't trust Andy McNab and I reckon Channel 4 brought him in simply to give a quote. I'm not sure if those men were professionals or not... they were obviously trained.

It worries me that Russia is joining this 'war on terrorism', which I believe could escalate into a 'war on muslims'. The holocaust was supposed to never happen again.

It also worries me that I have not seen any media reports outlining Russia's attacks on Chechnya... it seems to viewers as though these killers did this act for no reason. (that's not an excuse, but impartiality and objectivity are supposed to be the first rules of journalism)

xx


Getting to the other side smile

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Written by: Firepoise

It worries me that Russia is joining this 'war on terrorism', which I believe could escalate into a 'war on muslims'. The holocaust was supposed to never happen again.



Erm....I beg your pardon?
THe whole point is that America (In my opinion) has not started a war on Muslims..at all. IT has declared a war on Terrorism. OK, I agree I used to think that all terrorist groups were muslim. This of course is utter bollocks. The IRA and ETA are both terrorist organisations that are not Muslim. Lets please not start up "but America declared war on Afganistan and Iraq...they are both Muslim countries" ...yeah..and how many other countries are there in the world?

and there will NEVER be another holocaust. EVER. There are more than enough countries who would band together and stop whoever tried to start the next holocaust. Let alone the inhabitants of the country that starts it. No doubt civil war would start out, the people against the state.


Written by: Firepoise

It also worries me that I have not seen any media reports outlining Russia's attacks on Chechnya... it seems to viewers as though these killers did this act for no reason. (that's not an excuse, but impartiality and objectivity are supposed to be the first rules of journalism)



This statement I totally agree with. I dont even know why Chechnia and Russia are not getting on, which i think everyone should know.

Im assuming that Chechnia want sot become a free country in its own right. What I dont understand is why Russia dont just say "If it stops all the killing, then they can have their poxy country" (obviously said in Russian). What is so important in Chechnia that Russia will not let it go?


and If Bush has declared a war on terrorism and wants the world to work together, why has he not offered to help Russia?

and lets not forget... what is the difference between a Chechan Rebel, and a Chechan terrorist?

If bush has declared a war on Terrorism, why is he not asking all the world leaders to sit down, to share intelligence, and finally get rid of the major Terrorist groups such as Al-Quaeda, ETA and the IRA?

and lets not forget the Peoples Front of Judea. wink


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted::-(

Let's remember. Bush isn't interested in terrorism. He's interested in two things: power and money. Terrorism for him is a convenient tool to use to attain those two things.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:You see, this is the problem... people lie.

I agree, bush is indeed interested in power and money.
But, to be perfectly honest with you Mike, so am I. EVERYONE (excluding those who dont admit it) would like more money. Who can, without a shadow of doubt in thier mind, put their hand up if asked "who doesnt want an extra 100 every week?".

If any of you can do that, I envy you. I would love to be the richest man in the world. I would, hand on heart, give LOADS of money to different charities. I would buy my Island and get my friends to live with me. That is my dream.


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Oh god.

Ok, firstly, 'terrorism' is in the eye of the beholder.
You consider al-Qaeda, ETA and the IRA to be terrorists, they see themselves as soldiers fighting a war against oppressors - to them the terrorists are the Americans, Spanish and British (and one soldier is very much the same as another, although the tactics are different and the reporting of their killings very different).

It is an important distinction to make, as language (as you know from the huge amount of misunderstandings on this site) can be inflammatory.

Also, it is all well and good for you to want some more money, and you're right, everyone does... but I think we're talking about a bit more than an extra 100 a week here. There is also a hell of alot of responsibility involved in being the leader of the free world - and power and greed should be removed from the equation (is that not what congress and the senate are for?!!!)

My point about the war on terrorism was valid.
I did not allege that America started a war on Muslims... but that is the way it is developing. Anti-Muslim feeling is soaring in the West (and now around the world) thanks to constant and repeated messages of fear and suspicion against that community (and the economic benefits for countries that come with supporting the war on terror).

You may have thought that all terrorist groups were Muslim (why?!), I never did.
I can understand the Muslim point of view (and the concept of Jihad is not a true Muslim belief). If all the allied countries in the west with their vast weaponry and wealth started targeting my country and placing such emphasis on my religion, I'd be pissed off too.
And I was not just referring to America... but all the allied countries fighting this war (including Britain, Australia, now Russia and the rest).
This war will be ongoing and can only escalate to the point that Western attitudes will be turned against Muslim nations.
I hope to god I am wrong, but look around - sights are already being turned on Iran...

A 'holocaust' is a mass slaughter of people... I think this is a justified term to use when you look at what the west is capable of doing to these people. Which country do you propose will stand against the US, UK and Russia to stop them from doing whatever they want?!

And as for the people in those countries who may revolt... well, as an example, there were protests when allied forces invaded Iraq, but the war was 'handled' in the media by the government and as long as any other invasion is 'handled' properly, these countries can get away with murder.
The difference is that this time it may be extended out over a number of years.


Getting to the other side smile

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Written by: Firepoise

'terrorism' is in the eye of the beholder.



One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.


Written by: Firepoise

There is also a hell of alot of responsibility involved in being the leader of the free world - and power and greed should be removed from the equation (is that not what congress and the senate are for?!!!)



I like to think I live in the free world, but Bush sure as hell is not my leader...i wouldnt follow him even if he had 2X50 notes stuck to his ass.


Written by: Firepoise

Anti-Muslim feeling is soaring in the West (and now around the world) thanks to constant and repeated messages of fear and suspicion against that community




Did you know though, that sales of the Koraan have risen dramatically in America, as people, the American public, have started to want to know more about the Muslim faith and what Muslims belive (?) in.


Written by: Firepoise

And I was not just referring to America... but all the allied countries fighting this war (including Britain, Australia, now Russia and the rest).




Arent Russia and America fighting differnet wars against different things? If not, why do they not stand united?


Written by: Firepoise

Which country do you propose will stand against the US, UK and Russia to stop them from doing whatever they want?!




Would the UN not step in? (that was a question.....not a statement)


Written by: Firepoise

I love Marmite!




You sick and revolting person. wink

But anyway..this thread is not for arguing about the war and americans. There are already plenty of those.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:There is a difference. These are CHILDREN they're using. Innocent kids.

There is no justification, no matter how urgent the cause.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by:
Would the UN not step in? (that was a question.....not a statement)





Er, didnt they try that already?



Written by:
arent Russia and America fighting differnet wars against different things? If not, why do they not stand united?





They dont have to be fighting the same people, there is no coincidence between the media coverage and the presence of muslims in this latest atrocity. The 'War on Terrorism' is presented as global fight. Public opinion is and always will be swayed by the media spin. The votes speak for themselves.



And while people may be buying the koran, nobody can argue that the word muslim and the word terrorist are now intrinsically linked. This didnt have to be the case. People around the world dont say catholic and think IRA.



This conversation really should be in another thread.



I'm horrified by what happened to the people in russia.



Innoecent people should never, ever be held accountable for the mistakes of a corrupt, unjust government.


Love is the law.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Written by: ado-p


I'm horrified by what happened to the people in russia.

Innoecent people should never, ever be held accountable for the mistakes of a corrupt, unjust government.




Hear, hear.
hug


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BurningByron
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 10th May 2002
Total posts: 340
Posted:hmmmm I met a russian psychiatrist yesterday. He laughed when the topic of the school incident came up... his exact words were "It is not nearly as bad as the media is trying to portray it out to be."

HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hohum.

Going off on a little tangent is not the worst thing in the world and I wasn't turning this into an argument about Americans... I was talking about the new developments in this story - that Russia is joining the war on terrorism in the wake of the school attacks.

But if you want to bring it back to sympathising... that's fine too. Maybe I should start a new thread entitled 'sympathies and thoughts for the soon-to-be-slaughtered innocent Chechen people'. confused

Anyways, Aidan has answered very well the last three points raised, and I think we both agree on the first point (terrorist/freedom fighter)... the only thing I have to say is that, like it or not, Mr Bush IS the the leader of the free world. We have no choice over that.

The President of America, as the wealthiest and most heavily armed nation, rules the world. And tragically, Mr Bush is that president (hopefully not for too much longer).

Dr Mike... if you read the links that Burning Byron kindly posted above, the Russian soldiers were raping, murdering and torturing children in Chechnya too. God knows what had happened to that 'black widow' who can be seen in the school gym video - what atrocity had led her to kill other children?!
There is absolutely no justification for these abuses on either side, but you can't hold up one side to be worse than the other - they are as bad as each other.

And I do not like Marmite... slanderous lies!!! Nutella is a different matter biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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BurningByron
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 10th May 2002
Total posts: 340
Posted:Written by:
'sympathies and thoughts for the soon-to-be-slaughtered innocent Chechen people'


Very worrying that this may eventuate.


"Once upon a time there were two children playing in a sandpit. While digging a hole with a shovel, Child 1 accidentally flicked sand into the eyes of Child 2. Child 2, who felt very upset, pushed Child 1 before scowling at Child 1 and yelling "STOP IT". Child 1 who felt attacked for no reason, got up and struck Child 2 with the shovel. 30 years later Child 2 was all grown up and was planting bombs in the school of the children of Child 1. Meanwhile Child 1 (who was also all grown up) was shelling the village of Child 2 with artillary."


HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

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Posted:I love Russia. Its one of those places ive always wanted to go. I was mortified at the events that happened. My thoughts are with them.

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