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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:ok, babajaga came up with a new one to me the other night, and I am trying to figure out what it is called. I can't do a search on it since I don't have any idea what to call it.



Basically it is exactly the weave, except instead of both poi going the same direction (ie forward for a forward weave, backward for a backward weave), one poi is going forwards and one backwards. otherwise the motion and timing is identical to the forward weave.



Had someone asked offhand I wouldv'e probably said I didn't think this was possible, but it is actually fairly easy to do once you think of trying.



when I first saw it I thought she was doing a split time butterfly weave, but once I looked closer I saw that it didn't have anything to do with a butterfly, but rather that it is indeed a pure weave with mixed directions. It doesn't look much like a weave if you just watch the poi, but watching the hands you see that it is exactly the weave pattern.



knowing that there is nothing new under the sun, I figured someone must have an enlightnening name for this. All I could think of was "mixed weave"



ok, now let the definition arguments begin...


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:split-time 3bt butterfly weave smile



and since i got in first, any other opinions on the definition of it are wrong wink


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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:3bt split-time butterfly weave?



edit: beaten, dammit... smile

EDITED_BY: tenticle (1093526302)


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vanize
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:yeah, but it technically has nothing to do with a butterfly though... I mean it sort of looks like a butterly weave at first glance, but butterfly weaves are either forward or backward with both handsm, and this is both. you can't do a butterfly with one hand spinning forward and one backwards.

but then again there is a net result of what looks all the world like butterflies dropping out of the pattern every third beat...


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:nah man - butterfly weaves are totally f*cked up.



there are 4 ways to spin a 3bt split-time bf weave: check out this post.





incidentally, i don't understand this:



Written by: vanize
you can't do a butterfly with one hand spinning forward and one backwards.





surely you have to have one hand fwd, one hand rev?



opposite direction poi spin is what defines the butterfly family is it not...?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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vanize
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:hmm, it is destinctly possible I'm a little out of step with the rules and regulations of definitions.



what I mean is, if you are standing with arms at side with poi spinning forward (going same direction), and you bring one poi across with a 90 degree turn or you just bring them together in front of you, you now have a forward butteryfly - poi going opposite directions but still both "forward" no? I thought this is why it was called a forward butterfly.



this pattern starts with one poi going forward at the side, the other going backward (opposite directions). bring those together and you have a reel or whatever people are calling it.



so really I don't see how this move is in the butterfly family even though splitime butterflys do come and go within the pattern. I mean, I'm willing to accpet calling it a 3bt splittime butteryfly weave, but I don't see it as really belonging directly to the butterfly family. but then you can pop out into a standard butterfly weave or plane old splitime butterfly from it if you pick the right moment in the pattern to do so, so I don' know...



... It's screwing with my head man!!! ubbloco


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babajaga
babajaga

old hand
Location: Berlin, Germany
Member Since: 25th Aug 2004
Total posts: 863
Posted:I didn't wanna make you ubbloco I just wanna learn ubbangel
but cool to know what I do thankx


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spiralx
spiralx

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Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Yup it is the 3bt split-time butterfly weave... the hand motions for that are identical to a normal weave, the only difference is the direction of the poi.



And edited to say that one way of looking at it is that it's a 3bt split-time TTN which instead of doing in two wall planes in front of you, you're doing it between the two wheel planes on either side.



See the beautiful symmetry here... 3bt s/t weave == 3bt s/t TTN.

EDITED_BY: spiralx (1093532058)


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: spiralx

See the beautiful symmetry here... 3bt s/t weave == 3bt s/t TTN.



that's the part that is screwing with my head!!!


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spiralx
spiralx

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Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:lolsign

It's true, when I thought of it I was also like "woah!" but it makes sense and shows why so many moves can be done both same and opposite direction. The trouble is normally that in a TTN your arms get in the way, but when you move it to the wheel planes and get a butterfly weave then you get around that problem and everything should be doable.

There's also the same problem when you move weave moves to the wall plane - for instance while there is a same direction TTN equivalent it requires a "cheat" to be able to do.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: vanize
what I mean is, if you are standing with arms at side with poi spinning forward (going same direction), and you bring one poi across with a 90 degree turn or you just bring them together in front of you, you now have a forward butteryfly - poi going opposite directions but still both "forward" no? I thought this is why it was called a forward butterfly.



okay - start off spinning two poi same direction, one on each side of you (wheel plane).

1. if you do a 90 deg turn (turning into the wallplane): they will be spinning same direction.
you can do same direction reels here or bring your hands together to go into wallplane weave stuff.

2. if you bring the poi together in front of you by dragging the poi into planes at 90 deg to the start position (breaking planes to get into wallplane): they will be spinning opposite directions.
you can do opposite direction reels from here or bring your hands together to form a fwd butterfly.

the general definition of a reel for me is any move spinning in wallplane with a poi on either side of your body (not weaves, waistwraps or any move that involves poi crossing each others' paths).

hope this makes at least some sense to ya - tis good to see you in the poi moves section ubbrollsmile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:and if you think this is confusing van, check out the definition maelstrom that was this thread eek



wink





[edit: cos i realised this is only the second time i have ever double posted on a thread... ubbangel]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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spiralx
spiralx

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Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
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Posted:That was a silly thread. It's amazing how much people can argue over such obvious things... ubbangel

wink


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
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Posted:Written by: George Bernard Shaw

No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious.




smile


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they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
Rev

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Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I would say such differences are insginificant.. but then again.. the only thing that makes anything different in poi are such 'insignificant' differences..

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vanize
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:Written by: coleman


hope this makes at least some sense to ya - tis good to see you in the poi moves section ubbrollsmile





yes, actually it does thank you - I see now that I am a little naive in how I define some things, which I guess has been causing some confusion for me on top of the general choas that seems to be natural to talking about moves beyond anything that is basic.



Babajaga's unreal natural skill with poi has been pushing my ability to describe things. There are lots of things that I know how to do that I don't have any terminology for and didn't really think might have been defined because I thought they were all transitory versions of of other more basic things.



But now babajaga is getting really good at picking out sections of what I do and finding the constant pattern behind them and then I watch and wonder what the hell it is. That, plus she can just (after only two months of spinning mind you!) think up a 3bt split time butterfly weave, "because if you can do a weave forward and backwards, you must be able to do it both ways at once" (don't think I got her quote just right, but it's close).



Anyway, I wouldn't be suprised if you see her in poi moves section arguing with you all soon. I've never had the combined pleasure and ego-squashing experience of working with such a naturally talented student, and it is pushing my poi boundaries both physically and conceptually.



and Spiralx: thank you - what you said about wall and wheel planes does a good job of concisely covering the issues my brain was trying to work out. Funny thing is that my body knows these rules, but my brain doesn't!


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Ariad
member

Member Since: 2nd Aug 2004
Total posts: 66
Posted:What is "split time"?
S:


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Isn't this also known as the Impossible Weave?

Good move though smile

Ariad - check out my signature tongue wink


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:according to my misassumption covered in the thread linked by coleman... no..

the impossible weave uses a whole ttn motion on each side.. not just half of one.. to equate this.. imagine doing a same direction ttn on each side of your weave rather then just twisting.. now I could still be wrong.. I mean for the longest time I asusmed that they were the same..


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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:hmmm... i think i might have succeeded in doing this trick yesterday, after hitting myself squarely in the eye and sending in all bloodshot... but then the started going in opposite directions, crossing over and not hitting me so i took that to be a success of sorts... it sounds like this but then I'm not even sure if my 5bt weave has 5 bts in or not..... *shrugs* bring on the day when I finally understand poi language and know what the hell it is I've been doing smile

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if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:ow... it hurts.... *gets me right in the nose when I'm not concentrating*

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if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:yeah, it can be dangerous! I think that is because the poi are coming from both directions - I mean with a pure forward move, you know you have to be mindful of your crotch, and with reverse moves you expect to dodge things heading towards your head - but this endangers both at once!

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Faberg
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:ubblol i tried this at the weekend, twice. smashed myself in the face on both occasions and promised myself never to attempt it again redface

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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