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Forums > Social Discussion > Another prime example of Howard's Lies

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200408/s1178955.htm
br>
I especially like this bit;



Written by:

(IRT to his claim that the PM knew before the last election that his whole racist election campaign was based on a misrepresentation of evidence) Mr Scrafton says a lie detector test he took this week backs his claims.

"Categorically, the issue was I think decided by the polygraph that my account of events has been justified," Mr Scrafton said.

But Mr Howard says he does not need to undergo a similar test.

"I will submit myself to the great lie detector test in Australian politics and that is the collective judgment of my fellow Australians," he said.



So not only is he not prepared to take a lie detector on this, he is saying that somehow being elected again will prove he was truthful in the children overboard fiasco?

I think not.

and whats worse? This isnt his first election, its his THIRD! the Australian people have already elected the scumball twice! The first time on GST (and how wonderful has that turned out to be?!) and once on the children overboard/refugee issue (which now it turns out he knew was a lie) ARGH!

Anyone who now votes for Howard in the next election is either stupid or in the pocket of big business.

Josh


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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a291
br>


I know that this shirt is for a different leader of a different country, but it states my sentiments!


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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

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Posted:John Howard......hmmm.....my thoughts on that censored are very simple...he is a lying, cheating, inconsiderate, moronic, loser, who in my mind I would definintely not mourn his loss if he was ever taken from the arms of earth.

I hate him and have resented a number of his decions that he has made in regards to the Australian voting public.

I am NOT voting for this censored


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Id like to get a Tshirt that says John Howard - Public Enemy No. 1

Josh


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:i dont like john howard, but i think he's right in not taking a lie detector test. lie detector tests dont detect lies, they detect anxiety, and they can be cheated anyway.

and what was wrong with the GST? they brought it in just i time for the sydney olympics so we could rip off all the tourists rolleyes

personally i'm sick of the children overboard scandal anyway, but thats just me; i have a short attention span.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:I'm sure the 300+ refugees who were tracked by our navy and drowned off the west australian coast are sick of teh children overboard scandal.
I'm sure my family are sick of risking our lives when we were refugees.
I'm sure the average human being would be sick of the fear, uncertainty, isolation and hardship that is the essence of being a refugee.
The point is, these are peoples lives we are talking about here.
no matter how the commerical media present it.
or however badly a reactive, unscrupulous govt hungry for re-lection will portray it.
Evil policies are sustained with they are met with public indifference.
The responsibility rests with your ballot paper.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Total posts: 13215
Posted:i suppose what i said did come out harshly, what i meant was that i'm sick of it as an election issue and a political issue without anything coming of it.
i think the whole policy needs a good kick in the arse and a big re-think, but i'm sick of "oh lets fix this" but nothing happeneing past the bickering. the children overboard has happened. i personally would rather see the future fixed up rather than the past dwelt on. i mean, he lied. we all know he lied (he told a whopping great big one!). so can we do something about it in the future? a lie detector test wont change the refugee policy, it's just going to stir up party tensions. i see the lie detector test as not having anything to do with the refugee policy, but more to do with general politics.
dont give him the test, just fix the policy.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

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Posted:And I can really see John Howard doing anything about the policy.

As long as it is not in his best interest he is not interested.

I have had a long standing issue with John Howard and would love to see that man down on his knees begging for the forgiveness of the Australian public...and frankly I think that he should take the test just to prove to Australia once and for all what a worthless, lying weasel he really is...

Then we can all face and make him apologise for his stuff ups!


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
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Total posts: 13215
Posted:Written by:

As long as it is not in his best interest he is not interested.




oh no! everything he does (or doesnt!) do is in the national interest rolleyes


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

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Posted:Oh...so I take it you say that big pink elephant flying too???

ubblol


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I hate to say this...

but Australia has followed so closely in America's footsteps that it was becoming inevitable that you would end up with the same breed of greedy, corrupt, power-hungry leader.



That's not to say leaders the world over aren't greedy and corrupt (and most definitely power-hungry), of course they are, but there's something about Bush and Howard and the transparency of their dispicable human rights abuses (from an illegal war to a shameful policy that turns away people in desperate need) that leaves anyone with a social conscience bewildered at their election.



Again, there have been human rights abuses across the world, but these men are leaders of two of the wealthiest countries in the world. 'First world' countries with a stable economy, we expect them to show more than their fair share of compassion. But think about it, that stable economy is so because of decades of such abuses that have been just swept under the carpet or ignored.



As the media have become more powerful, we get to see more of what our politicians are up to. We are horrified at Bush and Howard because we are seeing the scope of their actions in a way we haven't been able to before.



The point is, our governments have been getting away with it for years.



It's sadly become almost a forgotten issue now, but the human rights abuses we see perpetrated by Bush and Howard today are just another example of the abuses that have dogged the 'new worlds' since their creation - neither country has yet to pay full respect to its indigenous peoples, for example.



Anyways, sorry, this post got a little bit away from me redface



But I guess if you really want to change it, you have to do it yourself. Encourage your friends to vote Green, or join a party whose policies you support and campaign (if you don't vote then you can't complain). And work for your local indigenous group. hug



Anyways, take care



xx


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
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Posted:Written by: Medusa

Oh...so I take it you say that big pink elephant flying too???

ubblol



not only did i see it, but i got a nice big dose of poop on my head in the form of 25% increased HECS fees! spank

ive spent the last term studying the concept of "national interest" and for the rest of this term i'll be studying australia's foreign policy....this can only get interesting! especially with one of the most racist classes in my year! ubblol (ok, so we're not really racist, we just have certain students who like to play devil's advocate! and its hilarious )


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:I'd like to think that suffering the blatant lies of these people day in, day out would be the kick up the arse needed for real change, but its unlikely to change.

As firepoise says, the people in charge have been getting away with it for years Thousands of years. Sadly, the pressure these people are under from the media nowadays probably means they are a couple of the most truthful leaders the world has ever seen. The refreshing thing about seeing Bush in charge is that everyone can see the bullshit he's spitting, he hasn't managed to keep it under the carpet like most of his successors. If change ever comes about, it will be in defiance of people like Bush and Howard, not a loveable scumbag like Clinton.

For most people, voting for the democrats, or the conservatives (god help us) is going to be defiance enough. Its not. For a party to get together enough money for a successful campaign, they have to accept millions of dollars/pounds/whatevers from huge multinational corporations. Once they have this money, they can hardly just give these companies the middle finger. So any party that gets into power, even one that isn't full of power hungry bastards, has to hold its responsibilities to multinationals at a higher priority than its responsibilites to the people who voted for them.

One president may piss off more countries than another, but 25 million people a year are still going to die every year as a direct result of capitalist inequality. How uplifting.

respect
Davy


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:It's all unbelievably depressing... but, hey, that's life eh?!
No one said it was going to be fun umm

We can pretend to ignore it and distract ourselves with happy things... but Davy you're right, we essentially stand by and let millions die every year.
Human nature is selfish and greedy, which is why we have the leaders we do.

(of course, individuals can claim to be entirely generous and unselfish (probably even Bush and Howard would be 'nice guys' to their friends and family), but its our actions as a species which reflect our nature. And we suck)

Anyways, I also agree that none of the mainstream political representatives can be independent, which is why I would support the Greens... or any environmental party... as their mandate is clear, at least, more beneficial to the planet redface

Take care
Clare


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Total posts: 13215
Posted:i remembered last night after i had written my post of something i had been thinking about yesterday morning (kinda creepy that i was thinking about it that morning, at least so i think!)

anyways, it's the second verse of the Australian national anthem:

"Beneath our radiant Southern Cross.......
for those who've come across the seas
we've boundless plains to share
with courage let us all combine
to advance australia fair"

so i'm guessing that maybe all those plains are all filled to the brim of people who have come over the seas? why else would be be accusing them of throwing their kids overboard as an excuse to no let us combine?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:He seems kind of like Bush...except maybe not quite as bad...

Which is like saying that the Hindenburg accident wasn't quite as bad as the Titanic one.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:I can't figure out where Bush ends and Howard starts anymore.

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:Written by: Medusa

I can't figure out where Bush ends and Howard starts anymore.


uh does this help? wink

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photo hosted by bart-cop-e


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Eveish
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

Eveish

*Tickles pretty strangers*
Location: Australia

Total posts: 610
Posted:hey! I remember them! I was at that protest wink It was a great day. there were so many protests around that time, and they all had such a good atmosphere to them.

What if I should fall right through the centre of the Earth and come out the other side where people walk upside-down?!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Herald Sun 20 Aug 04

PRIME Minister John Howard today denied the children overboard affair had swayed the 2001 election.

cough*bullshit*cough. IMO it was pivotal in the election campaign.

Howard said: "Many people in my position can inadvertently mislead people, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes.

Well, for a man of Howards position that indicates incompetence, and he should have resigned. After all, he is the PM not an errant schoolboy.

Howard said: "I was given advice originally that these children had been thrown overboard, I did not receive clear advice countermanding that before the election."

What a copout. Perhaps Im nave, but I expect more from the PM. I mean, why wouldnt a person in his position query such a ridiculous claim? Obviously, there was prejudice and ulterior motives like an election to win. Look at the concentration camps, and look at treatment of refugees. Ruddock even sent twelve year old kids back to East Timor, even though they were born and raised as Australians.

Grrr, its been shown time and time again that Bush, Howard and the rest are no more than blatant liars and vigilantes. So much for democracy frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Eveish
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

Eveish

*Tickles pretty strangers*
Location: Australia

Total posts: 610
Posted:There is no democracy when it comes to those two, end of story! how many millions of people marched in protest of the war on Iraq? Did that sway them, even just a little bit? It was obvious that no mater how many people tried to get their attention to voice an opinion on the matter, they weren't going to listen. mad

What if I should fall right through the centre of the Earth and come out the other side where people walk upside-down?!

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

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Posted:"I am the leader of this country and what I say goes"

He thinks he is a big man.

I would like to meet him in person actually...I am sure I can tell him a few things about the [censored] he has done to a number of people I know...make his victims a little more personal


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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:[rant]
well, given that 0% of the people that illegally arrive on our shores are genuine refugees (for genuine refugee status to be declared, a person must declare that refugee status at the first non hostile country they come to). Now, given that australia is about half way round the world from the middle east, and there are all those nice countries like switzerland comparitavely next door, why not get to switzerland and declare refugee status there? it wouldnt cost as much as coming all the way over here.

Heck, if they really need to get that far away, then why not stay in indonesia? it has, after all, one of the highest percentages of muslims per head of capita in the world.

I really do wonder what sort of treatment a person illegally immigrating to iraq, afghanistan, or any other of the 'troubled' middle eastern countries would sustain. airconditioned, shaded, grass lined rooms, with three meals per day? a private room in the nearest hospital? Or would they be lined up against a wall and shot? 3 guesses as to which happens here, and what would happen there.

Oh yeah, before you query that, i've been inside Baxter, yes, as in walked around the rooms, crawled through the ceilings, had to run from one side of the complex to the other, and while it does have pretty nasty fences and gates, those are about the only things that distinguish it from a hotel room. and the bit about the local hopsital comes from the fact that my sister is a nurse.

remember the fires that were lit there a while back? causing some 6 million dollars damage? there are people in port augusta (my hometown), that will sit in the foyer of the police station drinking, so that they can be arrested and put in a cell for the night, rather than sleep outside for the night.

and you know what? the cells at the cop shop are a hell of a lot worse than the suites at baxter.

Now, all us aussies know about the hospital bed shortage, but we still keep anywhere from 5-11 beds unavailable when a 'refugee' needs hospital treatment.

Oh, and only about 5% of the 'refugees' that arrive here have less that a million aussie dollars available to them.

Sorry about the rant, but having lived in one of the towns that all this is happening around, you get a lot closer look at what goes on. The media dont even come into it, when you see everything first hand. (FYI, baxter's front gate is under 6km/4mi from the house i used to live in)


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Mig, I think you should download and read this report. Its been released by Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission of our Government. It provides the facts about refugees up til 2002. I dont have the time to go through and highlight the bits which are relevant to the claims youve made, but I think it will be a bit of an eye opener.

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/racial_discrimination/face_facts/pdf/ftf.pdf
br>
As for your claims about life in a detention centre is better than being shot so they should be thankful, it kinda misses the human rights aspect. So I"ll give you another link which has a lot of information about human rights and so forth IRT Australian Asylum seekers;

http://www.amnesty.org.au/whats_happening/refugees
br>
I hope you take the time to read these links.

Josh


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Fleance


journeyman
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Total posts: 99
Posted:Whatever you say about Little Johnny Howard (and most of it is true)

He does set a cracking pace on his morning walk.


I don't care who you vote for

Just don't vote for the guy who likes war, destruction and earning money over earning respect.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:MiG, I was just wondering what your take is on the detention centre refugees sewing their mouths shut?!

Do you see this as a publicity stunt, because for anyone's standards it is rather extreme...

During the H-Block protests in Belfast (at the Maze/Long Kesh prison) prisoners protesting about their conditions smeared their own sh*t on the walls - they suffered the stench, but the guards were physically sick. This was seen as an extreme protest - but sewing your lips together - that's more than publicity, surely?!!

xx


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:for fear of being lynched...MiG does have a very valid point. they could stay in indonesia et al. and anywhere would be better than where they've come from. (my understanding is that Bangkok (sp?) is the closest place they can file for refugee status in australia, but once they got to thailand they would cease to be refugees)

but i still thought that maybe we could be a bit nicer to these people, afterall they had endured a whole lot of shyte that we couldnt even begin to imagine. but that is, going by the media reports on their conditions and the like. but i wasnt aware of what MiG said about his own views of Baxter. and i would trust MiG's own personal comments rather than a media release.



*munches on food for thought*

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1093074050)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Fleance


journeyman
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Total posts: 99
Posted:A Woomera detention centre "survivor" spoke at the church i go to once. He spoke of terrible hardship, appaling conditions and all the other things you guys already know. He told us how he was the last member of his family who were released and given refugee status, this apparently was worse than everything else for him, as slowly one at a time his family were released but he had to stay without them.
He also said that whatever he went through was worth it to have the opportunity to live in "the best country in the world"....his words.

Detention centres are stupid, they hurt people people who have already gone through worse things than we can possibly imagine.

Alright, enough of my rant, but he i just wanted to get the point across that the poeple who were being held are probably some of the most amazing people to have ever come to Australia.


I don't care who you vote for

Just don't vote for the guy who likes war, destruction and earning money over earning respect.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Um Rouge, if your's and Mig's arguement was valid (RE: They should have applied in another country therefore they arent refugees), all the asylum seekers would not be getting refugee status. Patently, 80% do get Visas after due process in the courts, which means that Australian Judges applying Australian Law find that they deserve to be protected. I've worked in a court which hears these exact cases, and i can tell you - its not like the judges sit around and hand out sympathy pat on the back visas for crying people begging to be let into the country. Its an extremely complicated process that can be drawn out for years, an d at the end of it, they dont get compensation for being locked up (which is what would happen if someone were wrongfully locked up in a prison), they just get released. Talk about Guilty until Proven Innocent.

Children are being detained. Most dont get a proper education during their time there and so are further marginalised when they are finally released into society (like they mostly are).

Just to put it in perspective (if you believe facts, and figures that is);

Country of asylum Total asylum seekers
United Kingdom 88,300
Germany 88,290
United States 86,180
France 47,290
Canada 44,040
Netherlands 32,580
Austria 30,140
Belgium 24,550
Sweden 23,520
Switzerland 20,630
Czech Republic 18,090
Norway 14,780
Denmark 12,400
Australia 12,370
Ireland 10,330

Now given the size of Australia, and our dependence on Migration for Population growth, perhaps some one could suggest a good reason why we have the worst track record of treatment of asylum seekers in the developed world?

I also wonder why anyone who supports the activity of our government IRT refugees, would reject a statement issued by the same government's own Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission?

Seems inconsistent to me.

Anyone who had read the doc I linked to would have seen that the majority of asylum seekers DO apply from OS, and are resettled OS.

And for the million dollars thing - I think there is a little bit of confusion there, you see, if you have a million dollars to invest in Australia, you automatically get residency - no need to apply for refugee status there...

Josh


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Those are some very disturbing figures Josh.



I was aware Australia's track record with refugee intake was poor, (and certainly its treatment of refugees once they arrived) but hadn't realised it was so bad.



How are the Netherlands able to accept nearly twice the number of refugees as Australia?!!



And Australia's total intake is only slightly over Ireland's - a country which is a mere blip to the size and resources of Australia.



I also think it's important to note that while there are some unscrupulous types seeking undeserved refugee status, the vast majority are people fleeing for their lives and the safety of their families from human rights abuses and desperate poverty.



Try to imagine what it would be like to be with someone you love, with maybe a couple of young children, but to have nothing but the clothes on your back. To have barely enough food to feed yourselves and in a country were education and employment are nonexistent. If you're 'lucky' enough to have a hut as a home you certainly won't have access to clean water, and you are watching your children become ill as a result.



I know this may be slightly dramatic, but I think it helps to put yourself in another person's shoes, to try to gain some insight as to why they would want to leave their homeland (and it's always difficult to turn your back on home forever). It's these people who must be helped, not imprisoned indefinitely and seperated from their family.



For those living near a detention centre, you may be right that the media (or certain media) vilify such places, but are you sure you haven't been the victims of propaganda yourselves?! Are you sure you haven't just seen what the centre's managers and government representatives wanted you to see?!



Anyways, I tend to see this argument as a humanitarian one. The welfare of others of our species should be more important than political borders.



Take care xx


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Fleance


journeyman
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Total posts: 99
Posted:here here

I don't care who you vote for

Just don't vote for the guy who likes war, destruction and earning money over earning respect.

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