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Forums > Technical Discussion > Need help with experiment...

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Right, I've said it about twice now, but I'll be doing a comparison with a few different fuels for Fire Breathing. I want to know what kind of things people would like to have us record. We'll be having 3 people breathing the same fuel so we can get different opinions.
I'd like to know, what kind of things would you guys think (or want) us to compare.
I was thinking some of the general things are already well known (smoke, taste, smell etc..) so I figured we'd do some of the other things that also affect what fuel people use for Fire Breathing.
We'll be safety nazis about the whole thing, and have paramedics there incase anything goes wrong somewhere alog the way, as well as every other precaution we think of (and we've got a group of safety concious people helping with safety preperation etc...), so please, spare the it's not safe talk, I'm aware of that, but I thought I'd do something to help out the community, and I figure, this is a good way to do it.
So far I've got suggestions for;
Thickness (how easy it is to put into a mist when blowing)
Flame characteristics (Color, brightness, over all ness of the flame)
and anything else we notice along the way.


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:well... i admire your enthusiasm, but i believe that you could save yourself the time. there are many very experienced performers in this community that have already answered all these questions through their own experiences as performers and pros. why not just ask? there's different fuels for different situations. and far more wisdom out there about the choices than just the immediate charactersitics. wink wave

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:It would take alot longer to find answers to all the questions by asking other people, than it would be to just do a few blows with each fuel, and write some stuff down, plus, I want to try a few different fuels with in a shorter time, so I can get my own personal prefrences as well (thus far, has always been lamp oil).

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Mugetsu


Mugetsu

member
Location: Calgary

Total posts: 74
Posted:Has any one thought of using cooking oil for fire breathing? I dont imagine it would be very spectacular, but it might be safer.(you know, no cancer or anything)

Is it hot in here, or was I just engulfed in flames?

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: ImmortalAngel
We'll be safety nazis about the whole thing........



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...ll/fpart/1/vc/1
br>
thread on the term 'safety nazi"


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Written by:
It would take alot longer to find answers to all the questions by asking other people, than it would be to just do a few blows with each fuel, and write some stuff down



Hi Immortal Angel. Of course, it's entirely up to you, but I think reading the Home of Poi FAQ and the large number of firebreathing threads already on the board may not onyl save you time, but save you exposing yourself to extra risk (sorry, I know you said you knew the risks, but OTHER people reading the thread also need to know).

Also, if you really want to do this properly, it would be an idea to wait at leats a week between each fuel, so you can find out how it affects short-term tummy, general breathing issues and the large number of common bowel troubles that are often associated with fire-breathing.

Perhaps some knowledge of these symptoms may be very beneficial to the community... smile


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Sorry for the lack usage of the word nazi. Nazi is a twisted term really, The Nazi party did good things, it was Hitler who was bad :P But that's not for this thread.

Thanks for the ideas Charles.
I'm planning on making a comprehensive list of fire breathing fuel facts.
The things most experienced twirlers and breathers know, but take for granted and rarely get into specifics over.

Anyways, thanks everyone. I'll see what kind of things I can manage to get together. It may take me a while to get experiences with all the fuel. I like to use all the fuel I have before I go out buying more, so it may be awhile.


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA

Total posts: 525
Posted:just a warning....make sure to mark what fuels do what...some people are allergic to some of them
i cant use citronella around a friend of mine because he gets nosebleeds, and ill get chemical burn from certain additives in some brands of lamp oil....so yeas...it really comes down to personal preference...but in my opinion ultra pure lamp oil is the best choice..you can order it off of lamplightfarms.com i think...


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:I use ultra pure lamp oil for my breathing most of the time,

but going with what you said about what does what.

I know performers who prefer colemans for NON-firebreathing because of the fact that it DOES have fumes, and it makes it easier for them to do fume retenton stunts etc...

The other problem has been noted in the fuel FAQ, even if the brand is the same, it might have different additives depending on where abouts you get it from.

The best thing to do, I think, would be what the Fire Breathing FAQ said and try a bit of the fuel before doing any performing with it, with out the fire etc...and work your way up to it, just to make sure you're comfortable with your fuel.

Of course, the safest thing would be to not do it all wink But the safest thing if you do end up doing it is to know your stuff and be prepared.


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Hmmm....sorry...but...folks who use colemans for fire breathing need their head examined....no effect is worth the risk that colemans poses with regards to fire breathing.

As for your initial question, I'm sure there's been a thread that discussed something quite similar......I'm too damned tired to search for it, though, thanks to Hurricane Ivan.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Errr they don't use Colemans for Fire Breathing, but Fire Eating, and Transfer techniques...I thought I mentioned that, but I only spoke about using it for the fume retention techniques...

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:i use ultra pure parifin if that help smile

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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Mand
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mand

Keeper of the Spitfire
Location: Calgary Canada

Total posts: 2317
Posted:Written by: ImmortalAngel

I use ultra pure lamp oil for my breathing most of the time,
but going with what you said about what does what.
I know performers who prefer colemans because the fact that it DOES have fumes, and it makes it easier for them to do fume retenton stunts etc...



Errr... sorry but you did say about fire breathing, and not a whisper about fire eating or transfers. confused
You kinda keep going back on everything that you say.

*thinks ImmortalAngel is a very confused bunny, trying to dig himself out of a hole* tongue


Lets steal a spaceship and head for the sun, and shoot the stars with a lemonade ray gun.

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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA

Total posts: 525
Posted:Written by: SpitFire

Hmmm....sorry...but...folks who use colemans for fire breathing need their head examined....no effect is worth the risk that colemans poses with regards to fire breathing.

As for your initial question, I'm sure there's been a thread that discussed something quite similar......I'm too damned tired to search for it, though, thanks to Hurricane Ivan.




grr...wheres mephisto to help me when i need him....there is supposedly a technique used that is for white gas (colemans)...but i dont know what it is..only that there supposedly is one....
*scrambles off to find mephisto...


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Written by: ImmortalAngel

I use ultra pure lamp oil for *my* breathing most of the time,
but going with what you said about what does what.
I know performers who prefer colemans because the fact that it DOES have fumes, and it makes it easier for them to do fume retenton stunts etc...



I guess you guys were looking at what I said I used rather than what they used. so let me sort this all out once and for all.

Ordinarily, I use Ultra Pure Lamp Oil for all my breathing and eating. Usually coleman or Ultra Pure for my traces.

I KNOW people, a pair of performers, who use Colemans for their eating and traces. They don't do Fire Breathing in their act, or at least, not the act they had going on up here. They find that the fumes and low flashpoint that goes with Colemans make it easier to do some of their tricks, for example a fume retention stunt in which a performer fully extinguishes the torch and lights another one. Looks almost like a tongue transfer, but from what I've seen and understand, it's not.
The low flash point and low evaporation temp also make it ideal for flashy traces with out the chance of burning.

I have gotten some good looking traces when using colemans. Ultra pure doesn't always make a good strong flame, where as Colemans gives me 5-7 seconds of nice strong flame, all along what ever it is I'm tracing :P


Make sense now Mand?


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Actually, IA, the thread focused on Fire Breathing. If you look at your initial post, and the one that you quotes in your reply above, you don't ever actually mention fire eating or trace tricks, which is where the confusion came in.

Your initial thread only mentiones fire breathing, and testing fuels specifically for fire breathing. I get twitchy when people mention fire breathing and colemans in the same sentence....as I think most safety conscious fire arts folks should.

Thank you for clarifying.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Sorry for the whole thing frown I don't have an easy to follow thought path, so it's not the first time people have gotten confused with things I've said.

I do know someone who uses colemans for fire breathing, he was a performer who just picked up the stuff and tried it out once. He started as a juggler, but didn't know much about fire. I had a talk with him about it and strongly suggested kero or lamp oil. I just so happened to meet two guys from HoP, (not sure if they're on the forum or not, but they knew Home Of Poi when I said it) who came up to him after the show as well, we talked a bit and I talked to all three of them about the different fuels they should use etc...







EDIT:



I didn't want to make a new post, but I was at the pharmacy again today and I was wondering what kind of alcohol you all use when you say de-naturalized...Isopropyl? or ethanol? I found some 95% ethanol and some 99% isopropyl, and all sorts of other kinds, but I was wondering, which, if any, do you people use? Is it the normal rubbing alcohol, found in all pharmacies?





EDIT 2:





I found this bit while reading one of many MSDS sheets for Ethyl Alcohol;

Ingestion can cause nausea, vomitting and inebriation; chronic use can cause serious liver damage. Note that "absolute" alcohol, which is close to 100% ethanol, may nevertheless contain traces of 2-propanol, together with methanol or benzene. The latter two are very toxic, while "denatured" alcohol has substances added to it which make it unpleasant and possibly hazardous to consume.

Can someome please confirm or deny the fact that "denatured" alcohol is just ethyl alcohol with poisons? if so, would ethyl alcohol burn better then denatured? on account of it being more pure?





EDIT 3:



I finally found the answers to most of my questions. Denatured alcohol is Ethyl alcohol with a bit of methyl alcohol for poison wink So I'm more or less good now...

I got some good ethyl alcohol, and *drools* That's some pretty green fire...

EDITED_BY: ImmortalAngel (1095809926)


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So IA, you are saying that everything I have done in the studies of fire breathing in the past 7 years, including intensive research into different fuels, the professional presentation and the physical effects of them is nothing?
All the chemists and doctors and people who have been fire breathing with the sideshow that I talked to about what they used and what it has done to them is nothing?
All the personal experiments with different fuels and possible fuels I have done is nothing?

I have a whole freaking three ring binder full of these facts, but did not include them all on the site because it would seem endless. All anyone has to do is ask for information and I have always been happy to share it.

That people like me are not worth asking because you are too lazy to do so, including what people take for granted, what textures work, what do not, etc, is pretty insulting to those of us who have been doing this for years and decades.

I have a list here of about 20 fuels and/or possible fuels, the MSDS sheets, evaluations of the flames they produce, the textures, the temperatures, etc....

Saying it would be too much effort to simply ask, risking not only your own neck..but those of your compatriots, was a statement out of either laziness or ignorance, and quite truthfully, neither are traits that belong in a fire breather.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:No offense, but it would have been nice to know that you had such extensive notes 2 months ago...when I was still intrested in the project wink

I was contacted in private messages and was told more or less the same thing you just told me now, and was told that anyone concerned did have access to such extensive notes, such as yours.

I also now see noticable differences in the fire breathing FAQ since the time of the post, and I did notice these changes (gradual as far as I noticed) every time I checked back to it, which is fairly often (I do like to keep updated on any and all advice. Although the basic safety will almost always remain the same, the more times I read it, and the more I know, the better I will be when I need to apply it)



I didn't mean to come off as ignorant nor lazy, I do believe I also said I wanted to do this to find a fuel right for me.



I didn't know that you did have such extensive knowledge, and I can only blame my self for not asking. When I said it would take to long, it was because, I was under the influence that I would have to seek out people willing to help, then they would have to type out their experiences and information, which did, at the time of my post in which I said it, seem like a lot longer than if I were go take 30 minutes to go out, buy the fuels, grab the MSDS's and set up a small experiment inwhich we'd follow our safety rules (with a bit more than regular safety gear) and have a few people watch so we could get an all round idea for all the fuels we tried.



I'm sorry to have offended you (if I have, which I'm fairly sure I have), I wanted to make a brief FAQ on the various fuels, so that it could be put up, with links to more indepth information, because as you said, if you were to put up all the information, it WOULD seem endless, mostly because it is endless (One of the first things I realized when I came to HoP is that you can never have to much safety information) wink I wanted to put more information readily out there, and easier to access.

If one were to simply read the current Fire Breathing FAQ, they might disregard the safety bit on the fuels because the fuel information wasn't there for them. I thought maybe if I could make something for them, that would be right there, it would have kept people from doing stupid things, that we, as safety and fire conscious people take for granted.

We know that Fire Breathing with Colemans is VERY DANGEROUS, even if you do know what you're doing., but they might not.

A quick story; My older brother asked me if he could borrow some extra colemans from me (He already took some from me for the lantern) to show off to his friends whilst camping. Long story short I didn't let him near any of my fuels (especially colemans) untill he had read the HoP Fire Breathing FAQ, as well as all the safety stuff here, and the MSDS for the Lamp Oil. I did my best to make sure he knew what he was doing before he did anything (He was at a natural advantage for aspirating technique, because he, like I do, play brass insturments in school band etc... so the buzzing motion is second nature for us, plus we already have strong lungs). My only concern is that not everyone has a brother or friend to do that for them, so they might do something either out of stupidity, or out of ignorance.

He didn't end up taking any fuel, and has still yet to do any fire breathing, although he has on occasion been there taking pictures of me when ever I do (It's never a bad thing to have to many safetys, he, like all my safeties, all have their full emergancy first aid, standard first aid, CPR, and a slew of others that fail to come to me now)



I realize I'm getting redundant by now, but I think my words, although said out of the best of intentions, have brought about some most unpleasant reactions.



Personally, I respect you, Pele, One of the first things I read a year ago when I got into the fire arts was the report you wrote on your accident, as well as the Fire Breathing FAQ you put up. I found both very informative and very helpful on my path into the fire arts. I am very still safety conscious because I feel I know someone has ended up with some of the worst consequences, and everytime before I light up, I can't help but think of you, and what could be me, if I don't remember the lesson's you've taught me.



All in all, I'm sorry it all came accross the wrong way, and doubly sorry that you took it the wrong way, and triply sorry that I've now taken up so much of your (you, who ever happens to be reading this) time, so I'll end it here wink


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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